The American hierarchy & the TLM.

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This is a subtle post trying to say the OF is “better” than the EF. Remember the TLM was celebrated for 1500 years by the Church and was the only rite celebrated in the Roman rite. So I really think that not only is this argument against forum rules, but to say that the Church somehow thinks the OF is a “better Mass” is just plain silly. Let’s stop these kind of contests.

As far as whether the TLM would be abused, it was very rare during the 1500 years. There were no clown or puppet Masses, no changing of the wording, etc. Why do you think it survived almost entirely intact down through the centuries?
Very interesting statements.

Please provide your proof the parts what are missing from the new rite were present in St Leo’s time or shortly after. I am really interested, read all books what I could find, most important are Rado Echiridium Liturgicum and Jungman Mass of the Roman Rite. Both explicitly stated that these parts are later (2nd millennium) developments. (Both vere written before vatican II and both provides historical documentations. I am interesated particularly in your proof about Psalm 42, the Offertory prayers and the Last Gospel which represent the basic difference between the two rites.

Also both stated clearly that St Pius V ordered the chastised Roman rite all other the world due to the wide spread of abuses. Please enlighten me with your proof that they are wrong and there were no abuses. THis is interesting particularly about your methodology: how can you be so sure that something was very rare?

How do you explain the exitence of the various (non Roman) rites? In your thory what was the extent of the TLM what is celebrated since 1500 years without abuse?
 
Very interesting statements.

Please provide your proof the parts what are missing from the new rite were present in St Leo’s time or shortly after. I am really interested, read all books what I could find, most important are Rado Echiridium Liturgicum and Jungman Mass of the Roman Rite. Both explicitly stated that these parts are later (2nd millennium) developments. (Both vere written before vatican II and both provides historical documentations. I am interesated particularly in your proof about Psalm 42, the Offertory prayers and the Last Gospel which represent the basic difference between the two rites.

Also both stated clearly that St Pius V ordered the chastised Roman rite all other the world due to the wide spread of abuses. Please enlighten me with your proof that they are wrong and there were no abuses. THis is interesting particularly about your methodology: how can you be so sure that something was very rare?

How do you explain the exitence of the various (non Roman) rites? In your thory what was the extent of the TLM what is celebrated since 1500 years without abuse?
Why are you being so argumentative? You are comparing the two Rites and trying to show that the OF is superior. This is not the point of this thread, and it is also against forum rules.

I will not take your bait.
 
Why are you being so argumentative? You are comparing the two Rites and trying to show that the OF is superior. This is not the point of this thread, and it is also against forum rules.

I will not take your bait.
I sincerely what to know the proof that Jungmann and Rado are wrong so the parts what are missing from the new rite are first millenium development . Please help me. I want to learn.

There is no trap.I want to learn.
 
I sincerely what to know the proof that Jungmann and Rado are wrong so the parts what are missing from the new rite are first millenium development . Please help me. I want to learn.

There is no trap.I want to learn.
I’m sorry. I’m not as educated as you. I don’t even know what you are talking about. And again, this is not the place and time for that. Ask a priest.

Now stop already, or I will have to report you.
 
Why are you being so argumentative? You are comparing the two Rites and trying to show that the OF is superior. This is not the point of this thread, and it is also against forum rules.

I will not take your bait.
Thank you, Brooklyn.
 
That is all we are hearing from him. Just going to have to ignore it.
 
My Bishop is promoting the Latin Mass & has given it a “home”. "Bishop Finn also upgraded the Latin Mass community, which had been meeting in a city parish,** to a parish in its own right and appointed himself pastor.**
Not saying that you haven’t. Parishes and parish run schools are owned by the diocese, not the parish. Why not ask permission from the Bishop to do it? I’m doing something similar in getting students to experience the Divine Liturgy. I’m going through the Archdiocese’s Religoius Education Office instead of individual parishes.
 
It would be because the parishioners of parish 1 would go to parish 2. Unless you can guarantee that parish 1 will still get the funding it gets from those parishioners. I know the idea is to think about spirituality, but there are certain realities that we have to admit. One is that the parishioners support the parish financially (among other things) and for some parishes, losing a number of parishioners could mean the difference between staying open and closing their doors.

And of course as I mentioned in my previous post, priests believe that they should be able to cater to their parishioners’ spiritual needs (and they should be).

I’m not saying every parish pastor would want to hoard on their own parishioners, but there are some issues that they deal with that would concern this. My RC parish pastor was complaining to me about the fact that more than half of his catechists are not his parishioners. There are many reasons why a parish priest would rather that their parishioners stay where they are. Some of these reasons are noble, some may be petty.

Not saying that you haven’t. Parishes and parish run schools are owned by the diocese, not the parish. Why not ask permission from the Bishop to do it? I’m doing something similar in getting students to experience the Divine Liturgy. I’m going through the Archdiocese’s Religoius Education Office instead of individual parishes.
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me…in light of the fact that you & yours have insisted all along that the numbers of Catholics who want to attend the TLM., is VERY small???
 
Since no one else has contributed to the poll, I think that the figures at this time are the final ones.

**73.53% **…of us do NOT think that the hierarchy in this country are embracing the Latin Mass

** 26.47 %…**would attend classes on the TLM., if they were offered.
This second figure gives me much hope. Over 1-4 posters on CAF (that have seen the poll) would attend classes on the TLM. This shows open minds wanting to learn. (Can’t help but wonder, though, if this 26%
figure is made up of people, like myself, who attend the TLM., but simply want to know more.)

THANK ALL OF YOU who have participated & those of you who tried so hard to keep this thread from being shut down.
 
I’m really not sure how you are able to use this poll information, CC, since only 35 voted. Due to posting this in the traditional forum, your nine responders who would attend classes are primarily oriented that way. It may have provided a different result had you posted it in another forum where those who worship in the OF were also able to vote.

🙂 I commend you though, for trying to discern the feelings of the bishops. I believe your poll indicates what many have felt all the while, that this is most likely within their jurisdiction, and no doubt the reason for the lack of TLM’s, for one reason or another known only to them.
 
Cradle Cath, you and I were both raised with the TLM of old, and unless folks are in denial or in a mode that cannot accept change, we have to be honest and admit that this liturgy was “individual and quasi-private.” It is my understanding that it still retains that aspect, which is why so many object to the rite of peace and other elements that require openness to one’s brother in worship.
The only people who actively participate in the OF at my parish is the choir on Sunday, and one or two ladies whose singing has an aweful shreek character to it, which I think they are aware of. Our parish Church is gigantic, and there are perhaps one or two hundred persons in attendance on Sundays for the early morning or 11 o’clock Mass, as well as fifty or so persons the night before attending the Saturday night vigil.

The men especially seem suppressed in the OF. The folky feel-good character of many of the hymns are so overly effeminate that they appear to be almost embarassed. It is popular now for many parishioners to simply shut their ears, as it were, and quietly read the hymns from the Hymnal and try to draw from it whatever spiritual “meat” they might. This is overwhelmingly and universally preferred to signing. The homily (which for many has become the focus of the Mass, as betrayed by their conversation) is too often as one person put it, “mild men telling mild people to be more mild.” The consequences of facing the people have taken their toll. Even very good priests, such as my parish has, seem to approach their homilies with the intention of pleasing the crowd, which usually pleases no one. The Mass has an “emotional-high” feel to it, largely brought about by the hymns and choice of liturgical music, which quickly evaporates afterward, leaving a sense of emptiness that desires another emotive uplifting, usually in the form of popular music or other enjoyments, so as to perpetuate the emotional-spiritual high.

THEREFORE, the insults directed at the EF as being private, individualistic, and not participated in by the faithful, etc., are hypocritical if being contrasted to the OF, as if it were somehow better. The OF at my parish has extraordinarily little “active participation,” especially on Sundays, which is glaringly shocking considering the large and faithful attendance. The frequent appearance of almost shame or embarassment on many parishioners was not a little scandalous for us converts. The variety of reposes and responses by the faithful, though I am sure they are reverent and legitimate, engendered nonetheless confusion for those newly attending, who necessarily must learn by both instruction and example. I have never been taught exactly what the appropriate responses to the liturgy are ; for example, what the correct or recommended gesture might be as a response to certain parts of the Mass, what frame of mind I ought be in at the different parts, whether I should at times be listening reverently or praying in the solitude of my mind, etc. Do I pray with the priest or listen to his prayers aloud ? Should my head be bowed only in explicit prayers or implicit prayers also ? The OF often leaves me feeling shipwrecked, having to decide for myself how best to worship my God in the context or frameword of the OF. It also has the effect of making the priest seem purely ceremonial, like an instrument or master of ceremonies, etc. Priests are often judged by the laity according to the expectations of these roles.

FURTHERMORE, it becomes obviously dangerous to anyone who can think if the object of the Mass is to engender an “active participation” by the lay faithful, as the easiest route to accomplish this is to emulate the sensational and emotional concert-like liturgies of the protestants, which also quickly “evaporate” and become like a drug, wherein the people require another doss of spiritual-emotional “high,” and this high is insinuated into the mind as being the Faith itself. LET ME REPEAT, an emotive spiritism substitutes the sense of Faith, which - the moment it is removed, evaporates or fails in expectation - is taken to mean a failure or loss of Faith, even an abandonment by God. This concern would have to be addressed to prevent the lay faithful from confusing emotive sensations as being consubstantial with the Faith. It also risks reducing the Mass into entertainment, like a television show, so as to draw more into attendance and keep them in attendance.

Your synopsis of the OF as contrasted to the EF, is, therefore, fallacious. The OF is increasingly becoming private and individualistic in spite of efforts to encourage “active participation,” in fact, and quite paradoxically, it appears attempts to engender “active participation,” as most understand that term to mean, has the exact opposite effect : the faithful react by becoming utterly inactive and often fail to participate at all. And this begs the question, is “active participation” now the obligation ? If I don’t sing a bad hymn, if I don’t with joy shake the hands of everyone around me and wave, etc., am I failing in my obligation ? If I can’t hear or understand what the pastor is saying, owing to his poor English, old age or poor vocal skills, am I losing my salvation ? Is it necessary that I hear and understand everything being said at the Mass ? Is that what constitutes my “active participation” ? Should I feel guilty if I accidentally err in a proper reponse ? If not, then does that imply my response is not necessary or required, and therefore absolve me from any need to actually make a response ?

This is the present OF.

Pax Christi,
Tim
 
Hi TIm,

As the moderator requested that there be no contrasting the two forms, we need to let this rest. 😉
 
Hi TIm,

As the moderator requested that there be no contrasting the two forms, we need to let this rest. 😉
My apologies to the moderators, I read up to the end of the page preceding the warning.

THAT BEING SAID, and in my defense, my previous post is, nonetheless, an observational witness or testimony. My criticism is not of the Mass (for that would be a criticism of Christ Himself), under whatever form it is presented, but is a criticism at points of the purely human designs (the intentions, of course, being assumed good) that have as their object the fulfillment of the liturgical requirements, directions, and obligations.

My understanding of the Mass is that it happens, and we engage in, and perceive it, under the veil of forms ; i.e., through the medium of our human senses and intellect, as in sights, sounds, gestures, thoughts, prayers. It is always, owing to its mystical quality and divine institution, efficacious, whether it be the OF or EF, as it is Christ Himself Who is doing the doing, as it were.

Pax Christi,
Tim
 
My apologies to the moderators, I read up to the end of the page preceding the warning.

THAT BEING SAID, and in my defense, my previous post is, nonetheless, an observational witness or testimony. My criticism is not of the Mass (for that would be a criticism of Christ Himself), under whatever form it is presented, but is a criticism at points of the purely human designs (the intentions, of course, being assumed good) that have as their object the fulfillment of the liturgical requirements, directions, and obligations.

My understanding of the Mass is that it happens, and we engage in, and perceive it, under the veil of forms ; i.e., through the medium of our human senses and intellect, as in sights, sounds, gestures, thoughts, prayers. It is always, owing to its mystical quality and divine institution, efficacious, whether it be the OF or EF, as it is Christ Himself Who is doing the doing, as it were.

Pax Christi,
Tim
You’re understanding is correct. The Mass doesn’t need us…it certainly doesn’t need to “make us happy, or feel good”, It happens, as you said. There need be no one else present but the priest & one server (who acts as the congregation) for a Mass to be
efficacious. When I was growing up in the 40’s & 50’s, in my Cathedral parish which was a LARGE Church, I often saw priests on the side altars saying their Mass with only a server, while I prayed the Mass with the priest or Bishop who used the main altar.

My favorite description of the Catholic Mass is from Bishop Sheen’s book Calvary & the Mass!

“Picture then the High Priest Christ leaving the sacristy of heaven for the altar of Calvary. He has already put on the vestment of our human nature, the maniple of our suffering, the stole of priesthood, the chasuble of the Cross. Calvary is his cathedral; the rock of Calvary is the altar stone; the sun turning to red is the sanctuary lamp; Mary and John are the living side altars; the Host is His Body; the wine is His Blood. He is upright as Priest, yet He is prostrate as Victim. His Mass is about to begin.”

The Mass stands on it’s own, it doesn’t need us…but, who wouldn’t want to be present as Christ dies once more for our sins.
 
I’m sorry. I’m not as educated as you. I don’t even know what you are talking about. And again, this is not the place and time for that. Ask a priest.

Now stop already, or I will have to report you.
You made a bold statement, what is untrue. The parts of the Tridentine Mass which can be traced back to the Gregorian Sacramentary are part of the New Mass either, the entire Tridentine Mass is result of centuries old development and was defined (except the calendar) by St Pius V.
 
Bishop Finn is apparently hard and principled man,

ad2000.com.au/articles/2006/jul2006p6_2286.html

but his action to establish an apparently personal parish (Latin Mass society parish) is legal

Can. 515 §1. A parish is a certain community of the Christian faithful stably constituted in a particular church, whose pastoral care is entrusted to a pastor (parochus) as its proper pastor (pastor) under the authority of the diocesan bishop.

§2. It is only for the diocesan bishop to erect, suppress, or alter parishes. He is neither to erect, suppress, nor alter notably parishes, unless he has heard the presbyteral council.

Can. 518 As a general rule a parish is to be territorial, that is, one which includes all the Christian faithful of a certain territory. When it is expedient, however, personal parishes are to be established determined by reason of the rite, language, or nationality of the Christian faithful of some territory, or even for some other reason.

We need many other bishops like Him
CradleCath;7503561:
It would be because the parishioners of parish 1 would go to parish 2. Unless you can guarantee that parish 1 will still get the funding it gets from those parishioners. I know the idea is to think about spirituality, but there are certain realities that we have to admit. One is that the parishioners support the parish financially (among other things) and for some parishes, losing a number of parishioners could mean the difference between staying open and closing their doors.

And of course as I mentioned in my previous post, priests believe that they should be able to cater to their parishioners’ spiritual needs (and they should be).

I’m not saying every parish pastor would want to hoard on their own parishioners, but there are some issues that they deal with that would concern this. My RC parish pastor was complaining to me about the fact that more than half of his catechists are not his parishioners. There are many reasons why a parish priest would rather that their parishioners stay where they are. Some of these reasons are noble, some may be petty.

Not saying that you haven’t. Parishes and parish run schools are owned by the diocese, not the parish. Why not ask permission from the Bishop to do it? I’m doing something similar in getting students to experience the Divine Liturgy. I’m going through the Archdiocese’s Religoius Education Office instead of individual parishes.
 
Lets be a little frank here, you’d really be hardpressed with parishes promoting even OF Masses of another parish. Financially, each parish would want to keep her parishioners. Case in point, the area I live in has 3 parishes about 5-10 minutes drive from each other. One of the parishes started offering a Chinese Mass (there’s a lot of Chinese in Vancouver). You don’t see our parish advertise something like, “to the Chinese parishioners, there’s a Chinese Mass at theat other parish 5 minutes from here. Go there.”

Of course every priest of every parish would like to think that they can fulfill every spiritual need of their parishioners, at the same time have the numbers to keep their parishes up and running.
I wasn’t saying the my home prish should promote other parishe’s TLM mass, what I had asked the father of my home parish was his (name removed by moderator)ut on wether we should have a TLM at our parish. Reason why I asked him was because the Holy Father would like the spread of the TLM, I am only helping and trying to put my part.
 
I’m really not sure how you are able to use this poll information, CC, since only 35 voted. Due to posting this in the traditional forum, your nine responders who would attend classes are primarily oriented that way. It may have provided a different result had you posted it in another forum where those who worship in the OF were also able to vote.

I don’t think so. Usually, the majority of posters on the Traditional Forum are those who worship in the form of the OF. After all, you’re here. 😉
I commend you though, for trying to discern the feelings of the bishops.
 
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CradleCath:
Surely you realize that I was trying to discern the feelings of the Catholics here, re. the embracing of the TLM. by their Bishops…whose actions speak so much louder than words.
Um, you could’ve fooled me. 😉 I replied based on your post below.
And now back to our regular programing, the Bishop’s **feelings **
about the Pope’s wishes to clarify the fact that the TLM. was never abrogated. The Bishop’s feelings about the Latin Mass itself & following the wishes of our pope. What do you think posters?
Usually, the majority of posters on the Traditional Forum are those who worship in the form of the OF. After all, you’re here.
Not going to nitpick with ya, CC…
 
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