The American Psychological Association and homosexual partners raising kids

[Jake21]

People on this forum claim that the APA is pressured and corrupt, but I think that’s far from the truth. The APA is a major professional watchdog of psychology. They cite methodologically valid studies (unlike the hilarious junk science organizations like the Family Research Council) and have professionals judge the validity of psychological studies. I think the APA has an excellent track record when it comes to homosexuality. People who reject that claim mention the fact that the APA cites studies about homosexual partners raising children that have small non representative samples that have potential for bias. The studies that the APA cites acknowledges these limitations. Just because these studies have these limitations does not mean that there completely discredited. If you want to see some studies that are completely discredited, just go to the Family Research Council.

Are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE child of the homosexual partners that reported results that were extremely similar to heterosexual partners was biased or dishonest when these multiple studies were conducted throughout the decades?

If we combine that point with the fact that males are capable of being nurturing and caring like women are typically viewed to be, and females are capable of being bold and tough like men are typically viewed to be, we are left with a solid case that kids of homosexual partners will not have decent sized differences when compared to kids of heterosexual partners. The difference that people take note of is the way these aspects of parenting are carried out by males and females, but I don’t Intuitively see that as having a decent sized effect on children’s wellbeing. As long as both people that are of the same sex sufficiently carry out those aspects toward their children, then I don’t see how it will have much of a negative effect on the children.

 

[Sparkythedog]

People on this forum claim that the APA is pressured and corrupt, but I think that’s far from the truth. The APA is a major professional watchdog of psychology. They cite methodologically valid studies (unlike the hilarious junk science organizations like the Family Research Council) and have professionals judge the validity of psychological studies. I think the APA has an excellent track record when it comes to homosexuality. People who reject that claim mention the fact that the APA cites studies about homosexual partners raising children that have small non representative samples that have potential for bias. The studies that the APA cites acknowledges these limitations. Just because these studies have these limitations does not mean that there completely discredited. If you want to see some studies that are completely discredited, just go to the Family Research Council.

Are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE child of the homosexual partners that reported results that were extremely similar to heterosexual partners was biased or dishonest when these multiple studies were conducted throughout the decades?

If we combine that point with the fact that males are capable of being nurturing and caring like women are typically viewed to be, and females are capable of being bold and tough like men are typically viewed to be, we are left with a solid case that kids of homosexual partners will not have decent sized differences when compared to kids of heterosexual partners. The difference that people take note of is the way these aspects of parenting are carried out by males and females, but I don’t Intuitively see that as having a decent sized effect on children’s wellbeing. As long as both people that are of the same sex sufficiently carry out those aspects toward their children, then I don’t see how it will have much of a negative effect on the children.

No offense, but I don’t think you’re going get too far on this forum with the way you’ve worded your argument. The studies don’t matter here, because no one has read them. And even if they did, most people on here do not have the expertise in the appropriate subjects to evaluate them.

So we end up with arguments that go like this: “Here’s a study on my side that’s pro gay families”. And someone else says, “Here’s a study on my side that’s anti gay families”. And both sides say, “Well your side is biased”. And we get counters like, “There’s a conspiracy to push an agenda”.

And after all this, we get nowhere. No consensus is reached and the conversation just heats up and then fizzles out. I wish there was a rational way to discuss this here but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Sorry about the rant. But this topic really frustrates me.

 

[Jake21]

whatweknow.law.columbia.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-wellbeing-of-children-with-gay-or-lesbian-parents/

This shows the scholarly consensus that has developed over the decades. It shows a decent amount of solid studies.

 

[chris62]

No offense, but I don’t think you’re going get too far on this forum with the way you’ve worded your argument. The studies don’t matter here, because no one has read them. And even if they did, most people on here do not have the expertise in the appropriate subjects to evaluate them.

So we end up with arguments that go like this: “Here’s a study on my side that’s pro gay families”. And someone else says, “Here’s a study on my side that’s anti gay families”. And both sides say, “Well your side is biased”. And we get counters like, “There’s a conspiracy to push an agenda”.

And after all this, we get nowhere. No consensus is reached and the conversation just heats up and then fizzles out. I wish there was a rational way to discuss this here but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Sorry about the rant. But this topic really frustrates me.

Sparky,
Jake and the like, ie the numerous gay activists that prowl this website, aren’t interested in getting an answer.
They just post a pro-gay question and keep on replying to it.
It is what gay activists do. Just keep putting the word gay in every post.
Yes, we are all sick of it, and yes they keep replying.
No one changes their opinion, but these people are in the business of promoting gay-isms morning, noon and night.
And it is a very successful ploy.
Many good people have given in to the question over the years “what difference will gay marriage make to you”?
Well, of course, now we are seeing exactly how badly it does affect us and our families, and our future families.
But that question was asked constantly for a decade until the politicians caved in.

So, I agree with you, on these forums, unlike the politicians, these pro-gay posts take us nowhere.
But there will always be a reply.
And yet another post.
And on and on it goes…

 

[Jake21]

Sparky,
Jake and the like, ie the numerous gay activists that prowl this website, aren’t interested in getting an answer.
They just post a pro-gay question and keep on replying to it.
It is what gay activists do. Just keep putting the word gay in every post.
Yes, we are all sick of it, and yes they keep replying.
No one changes their opinion, but these people are in the business of promoting gay-isms morning, noon and night.
And it is a very successful ploy.
Many good people have given in to the question over the years “what difference will gay marriage make to you”?
Well, of course, now we are seeing exactly how badly it does affect us and our families, and our future families.
But that question was asked constantly for a decade until the politicians caved in.

So, I agree with you, on these forums, unlike the politicians, these pro-gay posts take us nowhere.
But there will always be a reply.
And yet another post.
And on and on it goes…

I hope we can have a rational conversation about the validity of the studies on both sides of the issue.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I’m a retired research psychologists and I quit APA largely because they were insisting that psychologists treat children as sexual beings, as opposed to spiritual beings. APA is heavily influenced by cultural norms, and APA caters to them. APA used to say that homosexuality was a mental disorder (which it is), but APA changed its stance due to cultural change, and now treats homosexuality as “normal.” Psychologists that do not go along with APA’s agenda are ignored and criticized. I felt that I was selling my soul to remain a member of APA.

 

[Corki]

The problem with the APA is that they are a clear example of “make your bed, now you have to lie in in”. Back when homosexuality was removed from the DSM, the APA was clearly corrupt and driven to do so by a political, rather than a scientific, agenda. This has been clearly documented and verified time and again. So now, the APA has a tainted reputation. Even many psychologists (as am I, by training, not practice) treat APA pronouncements with skepticism.

With regard to the studies you mention, every one of them has a bias as to how success is measured with regard to child well-being and successful parenting. For example, we could point you to studies that children raised by one parent and his/her same-sex partner are more likely to experiment sexually at a young age. Most people see that as a negative, but the APA would craft it as a positive. I have yet to see an APA study that measures the moral or religious aspect of child development for children raised by one parent and his/her same-sex partner that comes out with a positive outcome.

The APA also speaks out of both sides of its mouth publishing pro “gay” parenting research but also research that broken families and one-parent families are significant risk factors for kids and teens. When you read the latter, it’s the absence of a father that is significant in most of the results. By default, all mothers with same-sex partners raising children are doing so in the absence of a father.

If it’s any consolation, this kind of agenda-driven research is not limited to the APA or the field of psychology. Even the hard sciences are experiencing a crisis in research with regard to sponsorship and bias both with what research gets done and what gets published (and by whom).

So, what’s your goal? You can’t change anyone’s opinion in a citation duel. If you want to garner teammates in some kind of battle against the Family Research Council, this is probably not your best source. But, If you have an honest question* that is related to Catholicism*, you can get an honest answer from Catholics here.

 

[Catholic1954]

You just called the Family Research Counsel a “hilarious” and “junk science” organization, and their studies are completely discredited. Not much room for discussion here; you sound like you have already made up your mind.

 

[Corki]

As above.
And people used to think epileptic seizures were demonic possession. Then we learned better.
They “changed their stance” because we have learned more about psychology, not because of “cultural change”. We discovered new medical/psychological findings and knowledge.
The world is not flat.
The APA is not afraid to pay attention to the new findings in order to help people instead of being too rigid to change.

.

You have just put your finger on the problem. With epilepsy (and schizophrenia among others), science led the change. With homosexuality, the change in the science was driven by the APA. I was in college getting my undergrad in psych when the APA change happened. NONE of my professors (in an extremely liberal university) bought into it because all of the research pointed in the other direction. Now, you can’t get funding for any research in homosexuality unless you start with the premise that it isn’t a disorder. Policy came first and science (along with the money) followed.

The APA didn’t “pay attention to new findings”. It had an end goal in mind and created an environment to drive research in that direction. Now you can say that the APA was clairvoyant and “knew” what future research would “prove.” But you can’t honestly claim they were following the research findings available at the time.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m a retired research psychologists and I quit APA largely because they were insisting that psychologists treat children as sexual beings, as opposed to spiritual beings. APA is heavily influenced by cultural norms, and APA caters to them. APA used to say that homosexuality was a mental disorder (which it is), but APA changed its stance due to cultural change, and now treats homosexuality as “normal.” Psychologists that do not go along with APA’s agenda are ignored and criticized. I felt that I was selling my soul to remain a member of APA.

I really don’t understand how there’s any question here if you look at things objectively. Ordered sexuality is geared towards the creation of life; this is obvious across all levels of creation. It’s true for plants, it’s true for animals, and it’s true for anything which reproduces through any non-a-sexual method.

Any sexual behavior that does not conform to this reality is, by definition, disordered.

Why did we stop treating disorders?

To the OP, whether or not it is harmful isn’t really the issue at hand. That is one aspect of the argument, true; but the primary argument is what does a child have a right to? As Catholic, we believe that all children have a right to know their mother and their father, and to be raised in a household based on the complimentary of the sexes, in which they can learn the proper way to interact with each respective gender from their mother and from their father. If you remove one of the sexes from this upbringing then you are denying the child something which is intrinsic to the way they understand basic human interactions.

Now, you might turn around and point out that this reality isn’t being fulfilled frequently anyways due to single-parent households become more common, or due to divorce, death, etc. While this is certainly true, this argument is essentially that because it’s already broken, why not break it some more.

If you’re interested in reading what people who grew up in same-sex households have to say on the subject; and the reasons that many of them chose to denounce the concept of same-sex households raising children, I direct you here: cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/adults-raised-gay-couples-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

Homosexual behavior is a form of mental illness because individuals who suffer from it have had trouble connecting towards the opposite sex and began to lust after the same sex due to problems bounding with their opposite gender parents.

Children raised in same sex marriages are being lead to adopt impure sexual desires and will grow up in an environment where sin and disorders are called normal how is this good for anyone?

Homosexuals have a higher risk of drug abuse, domestic violence,AIDS and suicide among other health problems.

It is not a safe or healthy lifestyle and we must pray for people trapped in this sinful lifestyle

 

[Robert_Sock]

I’m thinking that the APA was saying to take into account the child’s sexuality as well as their psychology…as most therapists and psychiatrists (I feel a Freudian slip coming on…) will agree.
Children are very aware of their sexuality from a young age. To ignore it would be wrong.

Instead of “catering” to “cultural norms”…I see the APA as growing, learning, and adapting to new information and knowledge as we learn more about the human mind and body.

Psychiatrists don’t go around today giving everyone shock treatment, lobotomies, exorcisms or drilling holes into their skulls as they routinely did at one time–and that was not so long ago.
They learned more, they adapted to the new, better knowledge…so we stopped those barbaric practices for the most part.

As above.
And people used to think epileptic seizures were demonic possession. Then we learned better.
They “changed their stance” because we have learned more about psychology, not because of “cultural change”. We discovered new medical/psychological findings and knowledge.
The world is not flat.
The APA is not afraid to pay attention to the new findings in order to help people instead of being too rigid to change.

Perhaps you did not like or feel comfortable that the new findings, which more than the majority agrees with, did not agree with your own personal religious beliefs.

Just like any job–like Kim Davis in the marriage license office–one should probably not stay in a job that requires them to perform duties that go against their conscience or religious beliefs, especially if it will harm others.

So it seems a good choice that you left your job doing research in the psychology field.
.

You paint a rosy picture of APA, but from where did you form this attitude? Did you ever interact with it?

The fact is that there is a strong agenda within APA and the folks who hand out the grant money. Propose a study that shows the negative effects of homosexuality and I promise that it will be rejected.

Not that I oppose APA. I actually have respect for it. I believe that APA is a powerful tool in guiding our world, and that it mostly promotes what is for the greater good at the given time period.

 

[mikekle]

Homosexual behavior is a form of mental illness because individuals who suffer from it have had trouble connecting towards the opposite sex and began to lust after the same sex due to problems bounding with their opposite gender parents.

Children raised in same sex marriages are being lead to adopt impure sexual desires and will grow up in an environment where sin and disorders are called normal how is this good for anyone?

Homosexuals have a higher risk of drug abuse, domestic violence,AIDS and suicide among other health problems.

It is not a safe or healthy lifestyle and we must pray for people trapped in this sinful lifestyle

I think you are right, and it needs to be treated as such, just because they have not found an effective way to ‘cure’ or treat it, does not mean they should just give up and call it something else. what if they do this with other mental illnesses in the future?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Homosexual behavior is a form of mental illness because individuals who suffer from it have had trouble connecting towards the opposite sex and began to lust after the same sex due to problems bounding with their opposite gender parents.

Children raised in same sex marriages are being lead to adopt impure sexual desires and will grow up in an environment where sin and disorders are called normal how is this good for anyone?

May I ask you to cite the source of these things?

 

[Jake21]

I’m a retired research psychologists and I quit APA largely because they were insisting that psychologists treat children as sexual beings, as opposed to spiritual beings. APA is heavily influenced by cultural norms, and APA caters to them. APA used to say that homosexuality was a mental disorder (which it is), but APA changed its stance due to cultural change, and now treats homosexuality as “normal.” Psychologists that do not go along with APA’s agenda are ignored and criticized. I felt that I was selling my soul to remain a member of APA.

Claiming that the American Psychological Association was just pressured by homosexuals in the 1970s to remove homosexuality from the DSM and that they are still pressured to this day is nowhere near strong enough to conclude that homosexuality is a psychological disorder. This is because there are multiple adult homosexuals on this planet that have never exhibited any behavior that would justify a psychologist to question his or her psychological state. I think we all intuitively know It’s not by any means ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to find multiple homosexuals well into their adulthood that have never been arrested, never been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental institution, and have no family members or friends whatsoever say they have seen him or her act in a dysfunctional manner. Now you could claim after giving a background check that the homosexual is just lying about their friends and family members, but are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE homosexual is dishonest? I do admit that homosexuals do have higher rates of disorders, but remember that does not mean that homosexuality IS ITSELF a disorder. Many argue that those disorders are triggered by the high rates of jaw dropping social rejection, violence, and bullying experienced by homosexuals.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…

So we end up with arguments that go like this: “Here’s a study on my side that’s pro gay families”. And someone else says, “Here’s a study on my side that’s anti gay families”. And both sides say, “Well your side is biased”.

…

We’re in exactly the same situation when no-fault divorce was being pushed. Folks saying it would be bad for kids and lead to a lot of single parent, single mother households which would be bad for kids. Studies pushed both ways. So, we had to wait for the real world to kick in and show us and… the results were it’s bad for kids, even correcting for demographics and income. Higher rates of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. Higher involvement in crime as both victim and perpetrator. Higher rates of substance abuse.

As a single father, I suspect the eventual real world data will show the same thing about kids raised in homosexual households. (there isn’t a study I’d trust either way). Kids not having both a mother and father in the home have a lot of challenges. Put surrogacy in the mix and the fact a lot of them will struggle with issues with that- they were just a commodity to be given/sold/bought to at least one of their biological parents, and it just gets worse in terms of what they have to cope with. Sorry, two men can’t be a man and a woman, two women can’t be a man and a woman.

Just like I can’t be both a mother and father to my kids.

 

[Jake21]

Homosexual behavior is a form of mental illness because individuals who suffer from it have had trouble connecting towards the opposite sex and began to lust after the same sex due to problems bounding with their opposite gender parents.

Children raised in same sex marriages are being lead to adopt impure sexual desires and will grow up in an environment where sin and disorders are called normal how is this good for anyone?

Homosexuals have a higher risk of drug abuse, domestic violence,AIDS and suicide among other health problems.

It is not a safe or healthy lifestyle and we must pray for people trapped in this sinful lifestyle

You don’t cite any evidence to support your claims.

Claiming that the American Psychological Association was just pressured by homosexuals in the 1970s to remove homosexuality from the DSM and that they are still pressured to this day is nowhere near strong enough to conclude that homosexuality is a psychological disorder. This is because there are multiple adult homosexuals on this planet that have never exhibited any behavior that would justify a psychologist to question his or her psychological state. I think we all intuitively know It’s not by any means ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to find multiple homosexuals well into their adulthood that have never been arrested, never been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental institution, and have no family members or friends whatsoever say they have seen him or her act in a dysfunctional manner. Now you could claim after giving a background check that the homosexual is just lying about their friends and family members, but are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE homosexual is dishonest? I do admit that homosexuals do have higher rates of disorders, but remember that does not mean that homosexuality IS ITSELF a disorder. Many argue that those disorders are triggered by the high rates of jaw dropping social rejection, violence, and bullying experienced by homosexuals.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Claiming that the American Psychological Association was just pressured by homosexuals in the 1970s to remove homosexuality from the DSM and that they are still pressured to this day is nowhere near strong enough to conclude that homosexuality is a psychological disorder. This is because there are multiple adult homosexuals on this planet that have never exhibited any behavior that would justify a psychologist to question his or her psychological state. I think we all intuitively know It’s not by any means ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to find multiple homosexuals well into their adulthood that have never been arrested, never been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental institution, and have no family members or friends whatsoever say they have seen him or her act in a dysfunctional manner. Now you could claim after giving a background check that the homosexual is just lying about their friends and family members, but are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE homosexual is dishonest? I do admit that homosexuals do have higher rates of disorders, but remember that does not mean that homosexuality IS ITSELF a disorder. Many argue that those disorders are triggered by the high rates of jaw dropping social rejection, violence, and bullying experienced by homosexuals.

The pressuring is not why why he thinks its a disorder, you have the cause and effect wrong. He believes it is a disorder, and that its removal was the result of external pressures rather than scientific study.

As to your claim, homosexuality is a disorder. Human sexuality has a proper expression which is easily knowable by considering the formation of our sexual organs. Male and Female members work in tandem to form a new life; and both are necessary for the sexual act to achieve its biological end. As such, sexual behavior geared towards this end is ordered in biological terms, and the desire to use our sexual organs for their intended purpose would likewise be ordered from a psychological standpoint. Homosexual acts (and contraception / masturbation, for that matter), attempt to use the sexual organs in a way which is contrary to their biological function, and ignore or deny the object reality of what these organs’ functions are. As such, we can rightly call such behavior disordered, because it acts in a way contrary to the ordered function of the body.

When a person has beliefs or desire which are demonstrably contrary to reality (as homosexual acts are contrary to the reality of the function and purpose of human genitalia), then we should seek to treat the underlying factors which cause a person to seek to misuse their biology. We do this with all other forms of disorders (eating disorders, depression, suicidal thoughts, psychoses, etc.); but psychologists refuse to apply the same criteria used on all other disorders to sexual disorders. Say what you will about the reasons, but they are being selective in their application of psychological norms.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Claiming that the American Psychological Association was just pressured by homosexuals in the 1970s to remove homosexuality from the DSM and that they are still pressured to this day is nowhere near strong enough to conclude that homosexuality is a psychological disorder. This is because there are multiple adult homosexuals on this planet that have never exhibited any behavior that would justify a psychologist to question his or her psychological state. I think we all intuitively know It’s not by any means ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to find multiple homosexuals well into their adulthood that have never been arrested, never been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental institution, and have no family members or friends whatsoever say they have seen him or her act in a dysfunctional manner. Now you could claim after giving a background check that the homosexual is just lying about their friends and family members, but are we really going to claim that EVERY SINGLE homosexual is dishonest? I do admit that homosexuals do have higher rates of disorders, but remember that does not mean that homosexuality IS ITSELF a disorder. Many argue that those disorders are triggered by the high rates of jaw dropping social rejection, violence, and bullying experienced by homosexuals.

I never meant to come off sounding homophobic, I’m not, and I have high regard for them. But I do honestly believe that homosexuality spiritual (or mental) disorder. If you and I were captivated by this temptation over our lifetime, we would likely be homosexual too.

 

[Sparkythedog]

We’re in exactly the same situation when no-fault divorce was being pushed. Folks saying it would be bad for kids and lead to a lot of single parent, single mother households which would be bad for kids. Studies pushed both ways. So, we had to wait for the real world to kick in and show us and… the results were it’s bad for kids, even correcting for demographics and income. Higher rates of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. Higher involvement in crime as both victim and perpetrator. Higher rates of substance abuse.

As a single father, I suspect the eventual real world data will show the same thing about kids raised in homosexual households. (there isn’t a study I’d trust either way). Kids not having both a mother and father in the home have a lot of challenges. Put surrogacy in the mix and the fact a lot of them will struggle with issues with that- they were just a commodity to be given/sold/bought to at least one of their biological parents, and it just gets worse in terms of what they have to cope with. Sorry, two men can’t be a man and a woman, two women can’t be a man and a woman.

Just like I can’t be both a mother and father to my kids.

I’m not trying to get too personal when I ask this but I’m curious about your opinion. Do you think your children are being harmed by being raised in a single parent household?