The Amish?

[FindTruth7]

Biblical means whatever Protestants want it to mean.

Yes, that’s what I meant.

 

[Matariel]

You need to take some reading lessons. That isn’t even remotely what I said.

Wow, isn’t that charitable…

What, are you denying that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth?”

 

[FindTruth7]

We should be careful not to idealize the Amish lifestyle. Getting away from the complications of modern life sounds great to us, but keep in mind they also do not have things like modern healthcare.

I read a book by a former Amish woman and unfortunately I can’t remember the name of it now. It was very revealing, and sad. She left the Amish community to marry a non-Amish man and was shunned. Their lifestyle only looks idyllic. It can be very harsh. This woman told a story of falling out of a window and breaking a bone as a child. Her parents were so reluctant to take her to an “English” doctor that she suffered greatly and the bone eventually had to be re-broken. Her father was also abusive towards her mother and the children, but because of the structure of the Amish community they had nowhere to turn. They were expected to suffer in silence.

There are a number of Amish communities here in Indiana, down in Shipshewana and Nappanee. Sometimes when you go to Menards you can see the Amish men shopping for lumber and hardware there. When we visited my dad’s cousins in western Wisconsin, we drove past an Amish buggy on the street. That was really neat and unexpected.

It’s not true that they avoid medical attention, that’s a common myth like many protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary. Surely as many catholics HAVe gone over board, occasionally some Amish do with medical attention too. But according to an amish man I talked with, and three Amish books I own, they very much seek medical attention, see dentists, doctors and hospitals. Unlike most Americans though (this is not to critisize, just saying) they don’t go to the docs for every simple ache and pain or depression.

While it may seem cruel, and while I disagree with the shunning sometimes, I do understand why they do it, and to some extant respect it.

Point is, hands down their family oriented life, and no electricity sounds awesome to me! I would probably give it up too if I could be around brothers sisters and friends speaking nicely to one another, all together in the Lord, eating such wonderful feasts, etc. Rather than attending solo to my job, working with “people” that insult me, being laughed at for reading the Bible, or playing video games solo and becoming isolated emotionally as many do.

 

[FindTruth7]

Yup to all this.

They also have a higher incidence of deaths among their children because the kids are expected to work from an early age, using equipment that is really not appropriate.

Why am I, my father, brother, aunts and uncles, other family members and friends and in laws still alive? We used heavy equippment and busted our butts when young too.

 

[tommiatkins]

I wonder why they stopped technology at 1650AD? Why not go back to caves and animalskins? If God hates the internal combustion engine he wouldnt have invented petrol.

 

[FindTruth7]

I wonder why they stopped technology at 1650AD? Why not go back to caves and animalskins? If God hates the internal combustion engine he wouldnt have invented petrol.

They accept technology, just at their own pace. And if it’s something that may be too worldly for them, like a tv where one can watch porn, or isolate themselves by playing violet video games, they will not allow it. But they move ahead at their own pace, and not with the fast-pace of life from technology.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I wonder why they stopped technology at 1650AD? Why not go back to caves and animalskins? If God hates the internal combustion engine he wouldnt have invented petrol.

If God hates the internal combustion engine he wouldnt have invented petrol./

… …mmm… inside information…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

They accept technology, just at their own pace. And if it’s something that may be too worldly for them, like a tv where one can watch porn, or isolate themselves by playing violet video games, they will not allow it. But they move ahead at their own pace, and not with the fast-pace of life from technology.

… …I think we can be as creative as we like in our lifestyles as long as we are not hurting ourselves or others. I think the modern way of living is in potential far more damaging to self and others than one that seeks to withdraw from many of the factors of a modern day way of life or lifestyle and especially those factors that are in potential harmful in some way…I cannot see logical reason that we must without fail keep pace with modern day living and lifestyles which is far too fast and complex for me while appreciating that others are quite at home and entirely productive in modern day living in every way…

“In my Father’s House there are many mansions”

 

[ibkc]

Why am I, my father, brother, aunts and uncles, other family members and friends and in laws still alive? We used heavy equippment and busted our butts when young too.

Straw man. I said “higher incidence of death among children”. I didn’t claim that every child from every family dies, so don’t try to build an argument around the notion that I did.

There are many laudable things about the Amish, but the way they have their kids work often in violation of child labor laws is not one of them, IMO. There are plenty of ways that children can work and contribute to the family without deliberately putting them directly in harm’s way.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

My sentiments exactly. I don’t want this thread to go off on a tangent, but my own Jewish ancestors survived the Sp Inquisition as conversos, and I have mentioned that fact several times on this forum.

When I did mention it, some Catholicsreacted as if it never happened, or tried to whitewash it…it reminded of the Holocaust revisionists who like to claim that the Nazis did not kill 6 million Jews, or that the Jews ‘died of typhus, not gas chambers’, or similar nonsense.

As the descendant of Spanish Jews who WERE persecuted by Catholic rulers, without much protest at all from the church (and who were assisted by the Dominican Order), it is very painful to hear modern-day Catholics speak as if my ancestors must have imagined it all.

However, as we have discussed elsewhere, unlike the Amish, the Jews cannot claim they never acted as persecutors.

 

[FindTruth7]

Straw man. I said “higher incidence of death among children”. I didn’t claim that every child from every family dies, so don’t try to build an argument around the notion that I did.

There are many laudable things about the Amish, but the way they have their kids work often in violation of child labor laws is not one of them, IMO. There are plenty of ways that children can work and contribute to the family without deliberately putting them directly in harm’s way.

If I’m understanding you correctly, my name is “FindTruth7” and not “Straw Man.”

What is it with some of you “Catholics” and addressing others by insulting names? Would you say things like this face to face? To my face? Do you people suddenly grow a set behind a computer screen?

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do not like mockery,

 

[BarbaraTherese]

What is it with some of you “Catholics” and addressing others by insulting names?

This is only a general comment.
A very sad and sorry fact of life and even very sadly Catholicism and Catholics and not what The Gospel and striving to live it is all about at all. I have no idea what “strawman” may mean … in Australia here it would tend to mean “of no substance” but unsure of the meaning in other cultures. The Australian meaning of course is a direct insult and attack on a person’s character and the term used as an insult and attack.

Would you say things like this face to face? To my face?

Perhaps yes and perhaps no - the computer is in the main anonymous and one can hide behind that and let the ‘dark side of self’ have a run. Point is that it should not occur at all and we ideally should encourage and build up, affirm, the other rather than resorting to unkindness of any kind. There is a way to disagree and even vigorously with a concept or position, if necessary, without personal attack. Speak to the concept or disagreement not to the person and character of that person. It has been said that truth without love can only ever be a half truth. And I dont know where the concept has come from, since I have seen it stated in these forums that it is charitable to attack the other and their character and person, and in the interests of Charity???..to strive to bring them back to “truth”!!! - rather it is to use one’s concept of truth as a baseball bat to hammer down the other in hope.
If I hold to what I believe is objective truth, then I have ‘grasped the words on paper’ as it were…to enliven those words with The Holy Spirit, I need to speak them lovingly, charitably. Else they are simply 'words on paper; as it were and only half the truth and the weaker portion of it to boot.

Do you people suddenly grow a set behind a computer screen?

Lost you, FT7…possibly the cultural divide:- “grow a set behind a computer screen”?..

Regards FT7:thumbsup: …Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

However, as we have discussed elsewhere, unlike the Amish, the Jews cannot claim they never acted as persecutors.

…nor can Catholics:thumbsup: …
…we all have a darker side as do all institutions etc. that are human in content. There is the positive aspect and that negative aspect…negative aspect acknowledged/accepted one can work on it hopefully…negative aspect unacknowledged/denied, it can grow…
Were there not a positive and negative aspect we would all be perfect as would those institutions which we form and to which we belong…

 

[ibkc]

If I’m understanding you correctly, my name is “FindTruth7” and not “Straw Man.”

What is it with some of you “Catholics” and addressing others by insulting names? Would you say things like this face to face? To my face? Do you people suddenly grow a set behind a computer screen?

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do not like mockery,

“Straw man” is not an insulting name. It is a term for a logical fallacy. You can read about it here: nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
I apologize for upsetting you. I tend to engage in debate on a fairly dispassionate level and apparently that comes across as coldness. I also forget that not everyone knows various technical terms. Peace?

 

[Gearoidin]

I recently read a very interesting book on the Amish: Plain and Simple: A woman’s Journey to the Amish by Sue Bender ISBN - 13: 978-0820329758

Gearoidin

 

[FindTruth7]

“Straw man” is not an insulting name. It is a term for a logical fallacy. You can read about it here: nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
I apologize for upsetting you. I tend to engage in debate on a fairly dispassionate level and apparently that comes across as coldness. I also forget that not everyone knows various technical terms. Peace?

Yes peace, I don’t want war with anyone. I took your comment to mean that since what I said was a “lame” argument you simply refered to me as “Straw Man,” instead of my name. I get BS like that at my job EVERYDAY from my co-worker calling me “jerkwad.” “moron,” and “dumb a**,” so the LAST place I wanted it is her eon the forums.

 

[FindTruth7]

but also ,from my experiences, I don’t see anything wrong with how Amish children work, their fathers and father’s father and so on all did it. It’s their way of life. If child abuse is occuring that’s different, but then you get people trying to say the littlist thing is child abuse, or the “poor” kid working too much is abuse. I guess I was abused too then, even though I had a loving home.

Sometimes America goes too far on trying to control other peoples children.

By the way, I work at a social services so I know what goes on out there

 

[FindTruth7]

This is only a general comment.
A very sad and sorry fact of life and even very sadly Catholicism and Catholics and not what The Gospel and striving to live it is all about at all. I have no idea what “strawman” may mean … in Australia here it would tend to mean “of no substance” but unsure of the meaning in other cultures. The Australian meaning of course is a direct insult and attack on a person’s character and the term used as an insult and attack.

Perhaps yes and perhaps no - the computer is in the main anonymous and one can hide behind that and let the ‘dark side of self’ have a run. Point is that it should not occur at all and we ideally should encourage and build up, affirm, the other rather than resorting to unkindness of any kind. There is a way to disagree and even vigorously with a concept or position, if necessary, without personal attack. Speak to the concept or disagreement not to the person and character of that person. It has been said that truth without love can only ever be a half truth. And I dont know where the concept has come from, since I have seen it stated in these forums that it is charitable to attack the other and their character and person, and in the interests of Charity???..to strive to bring them back to “truth”!!! - rather it is to use one’s concept of truth as a baseball bat to hammer down the other in hope.
If I hold to what I believe is objective truth, then I have ‘grasped the words on paper’ as it were…to enliven those words with The Holy Spirit, I need to speak them lovingly, charitably. Else they are simply 'words on paper; as it were and only half the truth and the weaker portion of it to boot.

Lost you, FT7…possibly the cultural divide:- “grow a set behind a computer screen”?..

Regards FT7:thumbsup: …Barb

Uncharitble “Christians” are one of the reasons my faith in dogmatic Christianity has dimmed, but not my faith in the Lord. Never, absoluely EVER has a pushy or uncharitble fanatic swayed me toward their belief. Attitudes like that is exactly why we have violence, and excatly why atheists love to attack our past (inquisitions, crusades, witch trials, burnings the Amish on the stake, or others that didn’t accept the Trinity, etc You’d think after 300 years of bloody persecution from pagan Rome Christianity would have knew better than to murder), and the atheists never realize these attitudes are not from God but by simply us arrogant humans.

“Grow a set” meant do people suddenly become braver. Cause when I argue with people in person, never do uncharitble acts come out, anger mayber, a little, but not insults.

 

[mercygate]

Yes peace, I don’t want war with anyone. I took your comment to mean that since what I said was a “lame” argument you simply refered to me as “Straw Man,” instead of my name. I get BS like that at my job EVERYDAY from my co-worker calling me “jerkwad.” “moron,” and "dumb a," **so the LAST place I wanted it is her eon the forums.

**OFF TOPIC: **If you are almost anywhere in the U.S., this constitutes harassment under the definition of “hostile work place.” This kind of behavior is actionable and should be reported to your HR department. It is absolutely unacceptable in any professional environment. If this person talks to you like this, he/she is doing it to others also and MUST be STOPPED.