The Anglicans are Coming! (maybe)

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m most cynical about the women’s ordination fiasco. Sadly, it’s spreading in the Global South. Many African provinces now permit women “priests.” Evangelicals tolerate it pretty well. Like I said before, Duncan and CANA are open to it while AMIA is not and yet has sneaked some in the back door. This is the big gorilla in the room Anglicans don’t want to deal with. It’s the Anglican equivalent of the U.S. government hammering out an immigration bill. Neither side wants to really talk about it because it’s gonna get ugly, create tension and bad feelings, and ultimately cause yet another split. But the ACNA and other conservative groups have a date with destiny over this issue sooner or later…

As far as the Diocese of Sydney is concerned, I don’t know if a diocese that allows “lay consecrations” is really conservative?!

The Anglican Church in England still doesn’t ordain female bishops, although they’ve ordained female priests for years; that’s what the article is about, since Rowan Williams is strongly in favor of female ordination but very hesitant to further alienate conservatives. Ultimately I think the Anglican Communion will formally split with the Episcopalian/liberal wing getting more liberal and the conservative wing, led by the African churches, ACNA and the Diocese of Sydney, getting more conservative and Protestant. There are a few prominent bishops in England who will almost certainly become Catholic, but the idea that large numbers of clergy will convert is a pipe dream – Bishop Akinola for example is about as likely to become a Catholic as he is to announce he’s actually a lesbian.

In any case, I don’t see the difficulty from Rome’s perspective in welcoming whoever wants to make the switch, especially given that they’re in the process of formally creating the institutions to allow the Anglicans to preserve most of their liturgy and traditions.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

He went through his confirmation when he mind-melded with V’ger! LOL

Exactly! And that’s why there was a split in the late Seventies!

 

[blazerdave]

As far as the Diocese of Sydney is concerned, I don’t know if a diocese that allows “lay consecrations” is really conservative?!

Mark my words: Sydney will prove to be as divisive for the conservatives as the revisionists have been. Trust me on this one.

 

[Melquita]

Mark my words: Sydney will prove to be as divisive for the conservatives as the revisionists have been. Trust me on this one.

The thing is, most of the conservatives are more Evangelical than Catholic – they’re more than willing to tolerate liturgical differences and even female priests as long as everybody agrees that homosexuality is a sin. People are kind of exasperated with Sydney since they’ve essentially created their own private church in the middle of the Anglican Communion, but I don’t think anybody really cares enough to make them stop doing what they’re doing so long as they keep to themselves.

 

[Melquita]

(For the record, I’m in favor of ordination of women, and ordination of practicing homosexuals, in the Anglican Church but not the Catholic Church. I like diversity.)

 

[MarkBrown]

I would tend to agree with you to a degree; I don’t think the communion will fail per say, but continue to evolve as it has been doing for many years now. It’ll be interesting to see what the make-up looks like 50 years from now as I’m sure it’ll look much different then it does now.

The Global South, about 20 Archbishops disagree. In Singapore, last week, the Archbishops called for a re-alignment. If TEC and Canada are invited to a meeting, Synod etc, they will not come. Letters from the Archbishops to the Archbishop of Canturbury plainly say the communion in broken.

So the TEC maynot think there is a problem, but the majority of the Communion has effectively ex-communicated them. They will not recieve Eucharist with the TEC etc. They recognize the ACNA and have publicly stated that the Archbishop of Canturbury is not necessary to define who is and is not Anglican. All of this can be read in documents obtained by Standfirm, Vol and Titus 1:9.

Evolution is not alway a good thing. In 50 years, if things continue the way they are going now, some anglican churches will have totally abandoned christianity and the rest will be of the more charismatic, evangelical type.

Fr. Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

The Anglican Church in England still doesn’t ordain female bishops, although they’ve ordained female priests for years; that’s what the article is about, since Rowan Williams is strongly in favor of female ordination but very hesitant to further alienate conservatives. Ultimately I think the Anglican Communion will formally split with the Episcopalian/liberal wing getting more liberal and the conservative wing, led by the African churches, ACNA and the Diocese of Sydney, getting more conservative and Protestant. There are a few prominent bishops in England who will almost certainly become Catholic, but the idea that large numbers of clergy will convert is a pipe dream – Bishop Akinola for example is about as likely to become a Catholic as he is to announce he’s actually a lesbian.

In any case, I don’t see the difficulty from Rome’s perspective in welcoming whoever wants to make the switch, especially given that they’re in the process of formally creating the institutions to allow the Anglicans to preserve most of their liturgy and traditions.

On an unrelated note, I’ve never understood why Catholics are so fond of calling Bishop Schori a ‘heretic’ – she’s obviously liberal and she has a very combative personality, but I don’t think she’s ever said anything remotely heretical. She’s much closer to Rowan Williams theologically than she is to Bishop Spong.

the Church of England has a Synod this July. Unless the Holy Spirit moves, they will vote to begin the ordination of female bishops. As to clergy, of course in Africa few will convert.
If you have read all that has been written about the ordinariate, Africa is seldom if ever mentioned and those in know of the process, have never mentioned or hinted that the majority of the broken communion will become Catholic. The ordinariate is for a long term process of bringing Anglicans back to the Church.

To Roman Catholics Schori is a heretic as she hold to doctrines contrary to the those taught by the Church. To many Anglicans, such as Archbishop Akinola, she is a heretic as she has abandoned Anglican teachings, such as they are, and preaches a social gospel in lieu of the actual gospel of Christ. Coptic Bishop Anba Suriel delivered a blistering sermon to the assembled Anglican Bishops in Singapore. You can read parts of it on Virtue of line. To almost every other Christian grouping, Anglicans and especially the TEC are being identified by the word heretic.

Schori is in communion with Sprong. She supports him and tolerates him and Robinson, Chane and Bruno. All of these bishops and others not listed have abandoned some or all of christianity in the recent past and today. She tolerates it and promotes such thinking while attacking such orthodox bishops such as +Lawerence of South Carolina. She is a heretic in more ways than one. You can read transcripts of her in interviews stating you do not need Jesus to get to heaven. I think Jesus would be surprise at that, since he stated in the gospel no one gets to God, except through him.

Fr. Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

(For the record, I’m in favor of ordination of women, and ordination of practicing homosexuals, in the Anglican Church but not the Catholic Church. I like diversity.)

Interesting statement. Care to develop it for us. Why is it ok for the Anglicans but not the Church?

Fr. Mark

 

[Melquita]

Interesting statement. Care to develop it for us. Why is it ok for the Anglicans but not the Church?

Fr. Mark

This isn’t really the place to get into it (and I probably won’t win many friends on here for saying it), but I think that the failure to ordain women in the early years of the Church is the greatest tragedy in the history of Christianity. Jesus as God was no more male than female, though His human body had a male form, and there’s no theological reason the representatives of the Church on earth need be exclusively male. I also believe Junia was a female apostle. As for why it’s okay for the Anglicans but not the Catholics, I’m very happy that churches that practice female ordination – and female ordination in the apostolic succession – now exist, but at this point I don’t think there’s any way for Rome to get there from here without utterly destroying the Catholic Church.

 

[Nicea325]

**This isn’t really the place to get into it (and I probably won’t win many friends on here for saying it), but I think that the failure to ordain women in the early years of the Church is the greatest tragedy in the history of Christianity. **

Tragedy? Are you stating Jesus who is GOD made an error? Are you familar with the OT scriptures? Who did God call to be priests? Men. God NEVER makes mistakes or errors.Key word: CALLING. Being a priest is not a ‘right’ but a calling. It is a religious office,not a secular position,which I think is even a bigger tragedy for many to mix and confuse the two.

Jesus as God was no more male than female, though His human body had a male form, and there’s no theological reason the representatives of the Church on earth need be exclusively male.

Exclusive? If that is the case,then why didn’t Jesus choose 12 women? Jesus preached about the Kingdom of Heaven not the democracy of Heaven. Christ Church is not democratic nor was it ever intended to be. Look at those churches who want to be ‘fair’ and ‘right’ and democractic? Spilts + divisions = Theolgoical CHAOS and madness

** I also believe Junia was a female apostle. As for why it’s okay for the Anglicans but not the Catholics, I’m very happy that churches that practice female ordination – and female ordination in the apostolic succession – now exist, but at this point I don’t think there’s any way for Rome to get there from here without utterly destroying the Catholic Church. **

Sorry,but women apostolic succession is bogus and totally unscriptural. Again,the church was not set up to be democractic.Far to much relativism and secularism mentality today about how the church should be.

Destroying the RCC? Exactly! Look at those churches who have allowed women and even gay ones to be ordained? How united are those churches now? Women ordination is wrong and the RCC is correct sticking to its guns!

 

[Melquita]

**This isn’t really the place to get into it (and I probably won’t win many friends on here for saying it), but I think that the failure to ordain women in the early years of the Church is the greatest tragedy in the history of Christianity. **

Tragedy? Are you stating Jesus who is GOD made an error? Are you familar with the OT scriptures? Who did God call to be priests? Men. God NEVER makes mistakes or errors.Key word: CALLING. Being a priest is not a ‘right’ but a calling. It is a religious office,not a secular position,which I think is even a bigger tragedy for many to mix and confuse the two.

Jesus as God was no more male than female, though His human body had a male form, and there’s no theological reason the representatives of the Church on earth need be exclusively male.

Exclusive? If that is the case,then why didn’t Jesus choose 12 women? Jesus preached about the Kingdom of Heaven not the democracy of Heaven. Christ Church is not democratic nor was it ever intended to be. Look at those churches who want to be ‘fair’ and ‘right’ and democractic? Spilts + divisions = Theolgoical CHAOS and madness

** I also believe Junia was a female apostle. As for why it’s okay for the Anglicans but not the Catholics, I’m very happy that churches that practice female ordination – and female ordination in the apostolic succession – now exist, but at this point I don’t think there’s any way for Rome to get there from here without utterly destroying the Catholic Church. **

Sorry,but women apostolic succession is bogus and totally unscriptural. Again,the church was not set up to be democractic.Far to much relativism and secularism mentality today about how the church should be.

Destroying the RCC? Exactly! Look at those churches who have allowed women and even gay ones to be ordained? How united are those churches now? Women ordination is wrong and the RCC is correct sticking to its guns!

I believe men made the mistake, not God. I’m not asking for the church to be democratic nor am I wedded to any exclusively liberal agenda, but I believe that misogynistic attitudes corrupted the early church just as they corrupted Orthodox Judaism and prevented the Church from attaining the fullness of truth. I consider the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox churches, for that matter) to be half a church rather than the universal church due to their abrogation of their responsibility to ordain women, and that’s why I’m thrilled that the Anglican and other churches are finally doing it.

 

[benidict]

I see…I then welcome all to The Catholic church however many there may be

yes to that. it looks like God is seperating the wheat from the chaff… Peace

 

[DharmaBum]

Destroying the RCC? Exactly! Look at those churches who have allowed women and even gay ones to be ordained? How united are those churches now? Women ordination is wrong and the RCC is correct sticking to its guns!

Wow. Your Christian charity overwhelms me as much as the irony in that statement.

 

[Melquita]

Destroying the RCC? Exactly! Look at those churches who have allowed women and even gay ones to be ordained? How united are those churches now? Women ordination is wrong and the RCC is correct sticking to its guns!

Wow. Your Christian charity overwhelms me as much as the irony in that statement.

I’ve always thought that that was just the stupidest and most anti-intellectual argument against female ordination imaginable, given that the same people are so fond of talking about how we don’t make the rules in order to attract people to the church or to make the religion easy to follow. If God wants us to ordain women, we should do it regardless of how difficult or controversial it will be. Not to mention the fact that, from the perspective of someone who believes it is biblically imperative to ordain women, the only reason it’s controversial at all is because men’s bigoted attitudes have corrupted the correct understanding of God’s teachings since the earliest days of the Old Testament.

Note that, as I said before, I’m not presently in favor of female ordination in the Catholic Church, largely because of the existence of the Anglican Church.

 

[DharmaBum]

Sorry for my inability to be able to cut and post a partial quote correctly

 

[TriuneUnity]

If God wants us to ordain women, we should do it regardless of how difficult or controversial it will be.

Okay. So what is the basis of your belief that He does?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Good point. There is no basis aside from the secular brainwashing we receive that tells us everything is a right. We’re led to believe that somehow the priesthood is an entitlement and a right.

Okay. So what is the basis of your belief that He does?

 

[Melquita]

Okay. So what is the basis of your belief that He does?

Jesus is God. God is neither male nor female, or perhaps equally male and female. Any church that automatically restricts any of the sacraments to half of the population based solely on the appearance of their genitals can be only, at best, half holy.

I use much the same argument to argue against priestly celibacy – we are all created in God’s image, yet we can only reach our fulfillment as humans in God’s image when united as one flesh in holy matrimony to a partner of the opposite sex. Anybody who aspires to lifelong celibacy is denying half of their Godly nature (in addition to their human nature).

 

[TriuneUnity]

Jesus is God. God is neither male nor female, or perhaps equally male and female. Any church that automatically restricts any of the sacraments to half of the population based solely on the appearance of their genitals can be only, at best, half holy.

I use much the same argument to argue against priestly celibacy – we are all created in God’s image, yet we can only reach our fulfillment as humans in God’s image when united as one flesh in holy matrimony to a partner of the opposite sex. Anybody who aspires to lifelong celibacy is denying half of their Godly nature (in addition to their human nature).

Okay. Is there anything in biblical revelation that you can point at to support the conclusions that you’ve reached? (Outside of celibacy, separate issue.)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But what about Paul saying that it is better to live as he was living, celibate? Paul and Our Lord discuss the virtues of lifelong celibacy and how holy it was. We are told a man who is married, cares about his wife and the things of this world where an unmarried man cares about the things of God. Right? I personally am ok with a married priesthood myself but it would be inaccurate to act as if virginity and celibacy was not considered a high virtue and even preferable by the Lord and Paul as well?

And sacraments and priesthood are not about genitals, as you so crudely put it, but rather the nature of men and women. Men are fathers, women are mothers. A priest acts in persona christi from the Catholic point of view. He is a father for the congregation when sacrificing the Eucharist and in the confessional, etc. A mother cannot be a father. 2,000 years of tradition and the Holy Scriptures are against your argument. Your argument is based on secular values of the age we live in. “My ways are not your ways” says the Lord…

Jesus is God. God is neither male nor female, or perhaps equally male and female. Any church that automatically restricts any of the sacraments to half of the population based solely on the appearance of their genitals can be only, at best, half holy.

I use much the same argument to argue against priestly celibacy – we are all created in God’s image, yet we can only reach our fulfillment as humans in God’s image when united as one flesh in holy matrimony to a partner of the opposite sex. Anybody who aspires to lifelong celibacy is denying half of their Godly nature (in addition to their human nature).