The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle

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Our parish priest stated emphatically that the The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle definitely does not refer to the present or the future but was only an historical document refering to events of the time with an apocalyptic style. Is this the official Catholic Church position? Are we compelled to agree with this position?
 
No. The position is more complex.

Many of the events of the Apocalypse/Revelation have been interpreted by the Church as referring to past trials of the Church and of the jews. This is the Amillenialist interpretation of Revelation, which states that the references to a Millenium before Christ’s second coming, refer not to a future age of Christ’s Rule on Earth, (Premillenialism and Postmillenialism), but to the current Age of the Church. None of this however is dogma, except for the fact that Christ will return only ONCE, in GLORY, not twice (once secretly to “rapture” people away,) as some fundamentalist protestants teach.

Some of the Apocalypse certainly refers to future events, such as the new Jerusalem and the Apocalypse itself. Otherwise there is no specific list of which events have happened and which are yet to occur.Some liberals would sideline the whole book as irrelevant munbo-jumbo, but that is not Church teaching.
 
iceman said:
Our parish priest stated emphatically that the The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle definitely does not refer to the present or the future but was only an historical document refering to events of the time with an apocalyptic style.
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I think this idea is what’s called ‘preterism’…can google preterism/preterist

there are even some old threads here on CAF that discuss this eg,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=419029

-and-

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=172250

-and-

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=351019
 
As an example of varied interpretations, take the image of the “Beast” and the famous 666 indication. Many take this to refer to historic personages such as Antiochus Epiphanes or the Emperor Nero, using Amillenial interpretations. Early protestants used similar Amillenial assumptions to declare this was the Pope!

Protestant Postmillenialists of the Victorian era, assumed that the millenium was soon to come and that we had passed the time of tribulations. Modern protestant fundamentalists tend to be premillenialists and so assume that the tribulations of the Apocalypse are all yet to come. Hence the Beast is no longer Pope Leo but someone yet to arise. This also produces their need for a theology of a “rapture” so that they will escape the horrors yet to come. Luther and Calvin knew nothing of any rapture. Catholics realise that some tribulations are passed, and others yet to come.
 
iceman said:
Our parish priest stated emphatically that the The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle definitely does not refer to the present or the future but was only an historical document refering to events of the time with an apocalyptic style. Is this the official Catholic Church position? Are we compelled to agree with this position?
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You are not compelled to agree.

Most Catholic scholars recognize that the genre of this book and interpret it accordingly…i.e. it was not meant to predict the future but rather was written to offer hope and teaching to those in the contemporary situation (presumably, late first century A.D.).

Of course it’s an historical document, in the sense that it was written in one historical period, in a genre that was understandable and common to contemporary audiences. It would not be correct to say that it’s historical in the sense of recording objectively, necessarily, what would happen.
 
diggerdomer said:
Most Catholic scholars recognize that the genre of this book and interpret it accordingly…i.e. it was not meant to predict the future but rather was written to offer hope and teaching to those in the contemporary situation (presumably, late first century A.D.).
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Various Fathers, Doctors, and Saints of the Church, who expressed a position on the question, held that the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) describes the future tribulation.

Jesus taught that the Book of Daniel described the future tribulation:

[Matthew]
{24:14} And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached throughout the entire world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the consummation will occur.
{24:15} Therefore, when you will have seen the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, may he who reads understand,
{24:16} then those who are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains.
{24:17} And whoever is on the roof, let him not descend to take anything from his house.
{24:18} And whoever is in the field, let him not turn back to take his tunic.
{24:19} So then, woe to those who are pregnant or nursing in those days.
{24:20} But pray that your flight may not be in winter, or on the Sabbath.
{24:21} For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until the present, and such as will not be.

But modernist scholars have explained away all the passage of the OT and NT referring to the tribulation.
 
iceman said:
Our parish priest stated emphatically that the The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle definitely does not refer to the present or the future but was only an historical document refering to events of the time with an apocalyptic style. Is this the official Catholic Church position? Are we compelled to agree with this position?
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I don’t think we are compelled to agree with him, but I think your priest is correct. Many evangelicals like to spin all kinds of wild tales with Revelation. I think the book has much to say to us about our faith and our live today, but I don’t think it is a prediction of the future.
 
iceman said:
Our parish priest stated emphatically that the The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle definitely does not refer to the present or the future but was only an historical document refering to events of the time with an apocalyptic style. Is this the official Catholic Church position? Are we compelled to agree with this position?
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I just this morning finished a wonderful book on this topic which I highly recommend: “Coming Soon - Unlocking the Book of Revelation” by Michael Barber. This is a Catholic (not the “only” Catholic perspective). Michael’s analysis is consistent with that articulated by Scott Hahn in his End Times series on the book of revelation.

It is a largely, but not exclusively, prederist view (that much of the book focuses and predicts the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70AD), but also looks for a secondary fulfillment in the end times and ultimately in the 2nd coming.

Its a very complex part of the scriptures - though it is loaded with paralell’s to Old Testament prophecy, particularly Chapter 7 of Daniel, and Isaiah and Ezekiel.

Read it with an open mind.

Blessings,

Brian
 
Robbinson said:
I just this morning finished a wonderful book on this topic which I highly recommend: “Coming Soon - Unlocking the Book of Revelation” by Michael Barber. This is a Catholic (not the “only” Catholic perspective). Michael’s analysis is consistent with that articulated by Scott Hahn in his End Times series on the book of revelation.
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Thanks for mentioning this. On the radio show which I linked above in post #9, Dr. Barber is the show guest.
 
Ron_Conte said:
But modernist scholars have explained away all the passage of the OT and NT referring to the tribulation.
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I like to call them Apocalypse Deniers. 😃

Yes, if you come across a Catholic teacher who says that the Book of Revelation is “part of the past” then run! But you might want to first ask them why it is that the word “Apocalypse”, which only means “the revealing”, has come to be synonymous with the end of the world. Of course the reason is because that is what the Catholic Church has always taught! But the “preterists” refuse to love the truth, refuse to hold fast to the tradition that has been handed down to us, and so they are easily deceived. And then they deceive others. Meanwhile, we see the prophecies being fulfilled all around us. God bless.
 
It is a common error (propagated by Protestant dispensationalists) that the Early Church taught and believed the kind of End Times “prophesying” one hears today. At the most some of them thought (erroneously) that the 1000 years in Rev. 20:2 was literal-- and that they were in it. Those were of the belief the Second Coming would be in the year AD 1000. Of course they were wrong, and Augustine especially opposed that line of thinking.

Catholics need to learn to recognize erroneous teachings about the End Times popularized by fundamentalists. In other words, toss out the “Left Behind” and “Late, Great Planet Earth” baloney. Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp

Finally, here are some resources to help you develop a well-balanced Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation, biblical prophecy, and eschatology. All of these are HIGHLY recommended:

The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Major Prophets
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-2381711-9848916?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=navarre+bible

The End: The Book of Revelation, tape/CD series and Study Guide by Dr. Scott Hahn.
saintjoe.com/more-info.php?product=177&Title=The-End

Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”? by Carl Olsen
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=260&AFID=12&

The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to “End Times” Fever, by Paul Thigpen
amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922820

The Lamb’s Supper, by Dr. Scott Hahn.
amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/sr=8-1/qid=1148926012/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2381711-9848916?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Rapture: The End Times Fiction that Leaves Truth Behind, by David Curie
amazon.com/Rapture-End-Times-Error-Leaves-Behind/dp/1928832725/ref=sr_1_1/105-8298365-5498833?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188139548&sr=1-1

Revelation Revealed, tapes/CD series by Michael Barber
saintjoe.com/more-info.php?product=245&Title=Revelation-Revealed

Coming Soon, a book on this same topic by Michael Barber
amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X

Introduction To Prophecy, CD set by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=613
 
Robbinson said:
I

It is a largely, but not exclusively, prederist view (that much of the book focuses and predicts the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70AD), but also looks for a secondary fulfillment in the end times and ultimately in the 2nd coming.
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This is questionable, as everything I’ve come across proposes the book of Revelation was written long after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., so it’s not really helpful (or more importantly, accurate) to suggest that it predicted the same destruction, when it was written much later.

Is there any reliable (even if not authoritative, though that would certainly help) Catholic source that claims the book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D., and so, “predicted” the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.?

p.s. I think you mean “preterist” not “prederist”
 
Ron_Conte said:
Various Fathers, Doctors, and Saints of the Church, who expressed a position on the question, held that the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) describes the future tribulation.

Jesus taught that the Book of Daniel described the future tribulation:

[Matthew]
{24:14} And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached throughout the entire world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the consummation will occur.
{24:15} Therefore, when you will have seen the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, may he who reads understand,
{24:16} then those who are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains.
{24:17} And whoever is on the roof, let him not descend to take anything from his house.
{24:18} And whoever is in the field, let him not turn back to take his tunic.
{24:19} So then, woe to those who are pregnant or nursing in those days.
{24:20} But pray that your flight may not be in winter, or on the Sabbath.
{24:21} For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until the present, and such as will not be.

But modernist scholars have explained away all the passage of the OT and NT referring to the tribulation.
Click to expand...
Jesus, like Daniel and the author or Revelation, was speaking to his contemporary situation. No need to fixate on some magic event or date that would bring about some “tribulation.”

Christians are always “in trouble” and challenged by what is going on in the world.
 
Another great resource is a book that my Catholic apologist friend wrote, “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” by Carl E. Olson. His footnotes are about as extensive as the text itself. A very well written scholarly book, and I’m not just being biased. I have read it myself. He not only tells the dangers of the dispensationalist views, but even presents their history, and most of the varying interpretations. But most of all he ties together how ones ecclesiological views shape ones eschatological views.

Having said all that, I also notice that many people who fixate on the “Mark of the beast” have a tendency to ignore the verse in the same passage that refers to the “Mark of God”. It’s simply a way of referring to those who follow Satan as opposed to those who follow God.

Concerning the actual mark…the “666” is just a metaphorical reference number. The Book of Revelation was written in the same style of Hebrew literature as some of the OT, with deeply metaphorical meanings attached as well as numerology. They considered numbers to signify certain aspects (i.e. 7 = perfection as in God rested on the 7th day, and 3 = eternal things, etc.). It certainly was not intended as a literal mark. When it speaks of on the hand or forehead it is speaking of filling your mind with evil thoughts and deeds (the hand).

I could be wrong…but I remember hearing that somewhere (I never said I was an apologist…;)).
 
diggerdomer said:
Jesus, like Daniel and the author or Revelation, was speaking to his contemporary situation. No need to fixate on some magic event or date that would bring about some “tribulation.”

Christians are always “in trouble” and challenged by what is going on in the world.
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Jesus was speaking both to His contemporary situation and also to the end of the present world, all at the same time, because both events are similar in nature but different in scope (the end of the Old Covenant is a Type or pre-figuring of the fulfillment of the New, perhaps)…the Romans against the people of God (Israel) that worshipped the one true God; and now the ‘world’ fills the role of ancient Rome against the people of God (those who follow the Gospel, and who love neighbor) who are scattered throughout the world instead of concentrated in one small region.

The sign of the Son of Man in the sky, and the Son of Man coming on clouds and the angels gathering the elect from one end to the other - all relate, it would seem, to the end of the present world (the fulfillment of the New Covenant), while the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple as described by Jesus related to the end of the Old Covenant and contemporary times.

Jesus said there would be signs of His coming, and that we should be aware of the signs of the times.

He will come, will He not? We do not need to fixate on it, but we should be aware of what is going on around us.
 
Matt 24:6 - You will hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not alarmed, for these things must happen, but it will not yet be the end.

Mark 13:7-8 - When you hear of wars and reports of wars do not be alarmed; such things must happen, but it will not yet be the end. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes from place to place and there will be famines. These are the beginnings of the labor pains.

Obviously there have always been earthquakes, wars, and such. He could return tomorrow, in 10 minutes, or 1000 years. The point is that we should be ready by living holy lives. I don’t believe these passages were written to scare us or to foster the idea that we should be fixated on ‘the end times’, but rather the here and now. 😉
 
It is clear from Scriptures that there will be signs of the end. And the mere fact that the end is even mentioned anywhere in Scripture, such as Danile, Ezekiel, Revelation, Matthew, etc, means we are to know something about it. I mean, it could be (and would be) entirely left out of Scripture if God did not want us to know something about it - He could just show up when the Day arrived, using His church to always keep us prepared, which He does anyway.

But the end is mentioned, and Jesus and His Scriptures tells us there will be signs of those times. God speaks economically, not wasting idle words, so the fact that He put these in His book indicates we are to know something about it.

Like most prophecy in the Bible it’s (the end times verses) opaque, until its time nears (I am telling you this ahead of time so when it happens you will know I AM). Those alive when Jesus walked the earth did not need to know too many details of it, since it was thousands of years away. (Jesus was fairly specific about the destruction of the Temple, saying not one stone would be left upon another - that event was much closer to their time.)
 
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