The Apostasy according to Joseph Smith

[TOmNossor]

reggie:

What we have to understand is that most of the Apostles and early disciples believed that Jesus would return in their lifetimes, they didn’t understand their letters to be inspired, they just wanted to spread the news of Jesus and save as many as could be saved. What we have to understand is that most of the Apostles and early disciples believed that Jesus would return in their lifetimes, they didn’t understand their letters to be inspired, they just wanted to spread the news of Jesus and save as many as could be saved.

Paul in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians seems to have said that we should not look for the eminent return of Jesus. My point number 4 is that it is possible that the urgency felt by Paul and some of the ECF is due to the eminent apostasy.

reggie:

Tom, I am sure you think that you have all the answers, but I don’t hear faith, I hear calculation, logic and most definitely condesension towards us Catholics especially when you say “were I Catholic I would believe that…” as if we are so deluded that we can’t see your truth. I think just the opposite is true and I would rather be an uneducated Catholic, just accepting in faith, than the most educated of malcontents

My “if I were Catholic” statement is not intended to suggest that Catholics are deluded. In fact it is completely contrary to this. When I say, “if I were Catholic” it is intended to suggest that my “calculation and logic” are consistent with a view that could result in a contradictory conclusion. I challenge you to find were I have suggested that Catholics are somehow ignorantly deluded. It seems to me that some are willing to dismiss what I have written without much thought, and this is fine. But, I find the Catholic Church to be a very reasonable read on history. If I could find a “fatal flaw” that I could hang disbelief on life would be easier, but my “conclusions” came after struggle and prayer. My “calculation and logic” came through a parallel “struggle.”

It is not my goal to be a malcontent and tear down the Catholic Church. It is my goal to change the opinion of those who say of LDS converts, “He must have taken leave of his senses.” It is not my goal to express condescension towards Catholics. It is my goal to invite Catholic to not express condescension towards LDS.

Charity, TOm

 

[reggie]

I find it funny that you claim not to want to convert Catholics but simply to get us to stop our condescension of the “religion” of JS.
This is a Catholic Forum, it does not exclude people of other faiths evem knowing those who come here are not always intending to learn about the Catholic Faith or to strenthen their knowledge of it. If you would only defend your faith, you would then use credible documentation of the truth of it. There has been none. Nothing given from you or ROI to buttress your claims of the restoration of the true faith. You look to works of the ECF to try to show that early Christians believed in your five points but not a single thing you’ve cited shows this at all. One of your basic claims is against the Primacy of Rome and whether or not the Bishops there knew they were the head of the church or if the early Christians understood this to be true. You keep claiming that it developed. I don’t find that to be an obstacle to Apostolic succession. As stated before, most, not all believed the end times were near. There was not much thought given to the future. God however, knowing all things, with the HOly Spirit inspired the NT to be revelation and edifying for all of us even though removed by many centuries from the actual happenings of the first 100 years of Christianity.

 

[reggie]

con’t…
Furthermore, ROI says he would not trust what ECF wrote about the faith, afterall, they were Catholic. EXACTLY!!! That only goes to prove the point. What early writers support the mormon faith? What early works supporting mormon theology survive? Which mormon restored truths were taught in any way shape or form that continued through 2000 years of history? The theology that was valid, and true is what comes through to us today through the Church because the Holy Spirit guided and protected the church and hence, the truth that the church teaches. There were, have been and always will be those who would dispute these truths. I may dispute that the sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, but the truth remains regardless. I would like to know also, why you believe that the Holy Spirit would have allowed so many martyrs to die in defense of the Catholic Faith when that faith was apostasy. Why would He allow the truth to be hidden so long and so deeply that no one heard of it for over 1900 years.
How does that hold true to Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life, The Light, The Good Shepard, The Door, The Resurrection,
if so many were lost before the first century and for 18 centuries following? It doesn’t makes sense and if it doesn’t make sense, it usually isn’t true.

 

[reggie]

con’t again…
Now you have said that men are created from eternal matter and are therefore eternal and meant to become like God who is eternal, or something to that effect, if I am understanding you. I ask you then, why did we need Jesus then to die for our sins? If we are to be god, then why do we need any God? It cannot be both ways. We are created or we are eternal. We are of dust and breathed to life through the Holy Spirit or we are God, eternal without beginning or end. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve believed the lies of Satan when he told them that if they ate from the tree of Knowledge they would become like God knowing good and evil. He said they would not die and yet, what happened? They did not become like God and they did die. If we are supposed to be a god, then why would this be a sin, why would it have resulted in the expulsion from paradise, the promise of death, disease and suffering not only for them but for all their descendants? It just doesn’t play out. The OT is the story of Jesus to come, the NT is the story of Jesus , who was born, suffered, died and risen. He is our Salvation, it is we who need Him. Why, if we are the same as Him, if we come from the same matter as Him? The mormon church tells us that we are to become gods, isn’t that the same lie that caused our loss of paradise in the first place?

 

[AugustineH354]

Tom wrote in post #126 on June 27, 2004:

I am well aware for similarities and differences between the EO/Catholic Theosis/Deification and LDS Exaltation/Deification.>>

I think I have studied theosis/deification about as deep as anyone (Biblical, Church Fathers, Catholic, EO, Mormon and Platonic). A problem that I see in so many discussions concerning theosis is the lumping together of EO and RC teachings on deification, when in the fact that there are significant differences in post-Palams EO thought and RC teaching on the doctrine. There is no question in my mind that the articulated Mormon doctrine of deification from their official sources is closer to the RC teaching than the EO.

Aug

 

[Andrew_Larkoski]

rodofiron:

I have spoken to several LDS and the practice of taking water and bread was common among them all. I have not heard of taking grape juice, though.

Interestingly, the process to prevent fermentation was only invented abut 100 years ago by Welchs, a Protestant company. That’s a topic for another thread, though.