The apostles are God too?

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I was debating the trinity with a Muslim. He told me something along the lines of what this website says. How do we reply to this kind of answer?

jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=152:jesus-says-qi-and-the-father-are-one-q-doesnt-this-show-that-they-are-one-in-essence&catid=49:trinity&Itemid=501
The Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit is One in Essence and we, Christians, become One with God, partaking in His divine nature, through His Uncreated Energies aka Grace. (2 Peter 1:4)
 
I was debating the trinity with a Muslim. He told me something along the lines of what this website says. How do we reply to this kind of answer?

jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=152:jesus-says-qi-and-the-father-are-one-q-doesnt-this-show-that-they-are-one-in-essence&catid=49:trinity&Itemid=501
The Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit is One in Essence and we, Christians, become One with God, partaking in His divine nature, through His Uncreated Energies aka Grace. (2 Peter 1:4)
 
The oneness that the Apostles and all redeemed Christians share with Christ (and with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is as his mystical body the Church. This is indeed an intimate oneness with God by which we participate in his divinity but this does not make us (or the Apostles) God.

All of Jesus’ oneness with the Father statements, on the other hand, must be read in the context of the entire Gospel of John, which begins with the explicit assertion of his divinity as the pre-existent Word of God: “In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God and the Word was God” (John 1:1). This same Word (the pre-incarnate Son) became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14).

The cited verse from the the Jews for Judaism website you linked to (John 10:30) is indeed an assertion was Jesus’ divinity: “I and the Father are one,” is a Trinitarian reformulation of the Jewish Shema, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). Jesus elsewhere asserts both his pre-existence and divinty as the great I AM (Yahweh) when he says,“Very truly I tell you… before Abraham was born, I am” (John 8:58).

Yes, through the “new birth” the Apostles (and we) participate in God’s divinity (we are indwelt by the Holy spirit) but that does not make the Apostles (or us) God. Jesus Christ on the other hand is the pre-existent Word/Son, the second person of the blessed Trinity; he is God (John 1:1), and has always been one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. As he says at John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

I hope that was helpful.
 
I was debating the trinity with a Muslim. He told me something along the lines of what this website says. How do we reply to this kind of answer?

jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=152:jesus-says-qi-and-the-father-are-one-q-doesnt-this-show-that-they-are-one-in-essence&catid=49:trinity&Itemid=501
Just wanted to say that this link ^ made my day and I’m so happy. I didn’t know that such a group exists and I’m going to write them a letter and support them as much as I can. This was just one of those examples that show how G-d works sometimes 🙂
 
The Muslim also gave a short talk on why Jesus is not God. The nearest thing I found online was this quote from a Muslim site.

God said in bible

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

Bible
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact

Bible
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God

but people have seen Jesus, that is why jesus is not God.

If jesus was God, what kind of God is this

God that does nor know stuff?

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

What kind of God is this who can’t do anything?

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus was a man acredited by God, not that he is God?

Acts 2:22 "Men of israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

if jesus was God, what kind of God is jesus when he need to be acredited by another God

Jesus God have another God??? 2 Gods?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

and jesus himself said this

Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.

What kind of God prays to another God?

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed

this is evidence from your own bible that jesus was not God
 
It is important to know that Islam is the only non-Christian faith in the world that believes in the miraculous birth of Jesus. Islam makes it a fundamental issue of faith to believe in Jesus. He along with Noah, Abraham and Moses are considered 4 of the 5 best men, ever. However, there are differences between the Christian belief in Jesus and the Islamic one. The first is in regards to Adam and the Original Sin, and the second concerns the crucifixion of Jesus.
The Jews planned to kill and crucify Jesus but God saved Jesus. This is described in the Quran:

“And their saying (the Jews):
‘We killed Messiah I’esa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah (God)’ - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but was his resemblance. And those who differ therein are full of doubts, they have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not. But Allah raised him up unto Himslef. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.” (Quran 4:157-158)

A question is raised by the above verse: Is there doubt in the crucifixion of Jesus as the Quran states?
Code:
Doubt in the Bible?The Quran states that those who say that Jesus was crucified are in doubt and have no certain knowledge. Here, we will turn to study the Bible and the crucifixion. The focus will be on these issues:
  • 1. The Issue of Resurrection.
  • 2. Discrepencies in the Story ?
  • 3. The Sign of Jonas.
    1. The Issue of Resurrection.The following verse takes place after the event of crucifixion.
"Jesus himself stood in their midst, and said unto them, Peace be unto you… But they were terrified, and supposing that they were seeing a spirit. And he said unto them:

‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have.’ And showed them his hands and feet. And while they yet believed not for joy and wondered, he said unto them:

‘Have ye here any meat?’ And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:36-43).

Two this understood from the verses:
  1. The disciples where **shocked **to see Jesus, in flesh and bone.
  2. Jesus asserts that he **was not a spirit **and that he was flesh blood. He asserts that by letting them feel him and by eating.
The disciples of Jesus were scared because they were not EYEwitnessess or EAR-witnesses to the actual happenings of the crucifixion on the previous three days, as described by St. Mark who says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, “they all forsook him and fled.” (Mark 14:50). All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was HANGED ON THE CROSS; they had heard that he had GIVEN UP THE GHOST; they had heard that he was DEAD AND BURIED. A logical conclusion is that they were seeing a ghost. However, Jesus comforts them, telling them he is not a spirit, but he is flesh and blood.

The fact that Jesus was flesh and blood is what creates some of the doubt. According to the Bible, after the resurrection :

"Neither shall they die any more: for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles, and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection.’ (Luke 20:36)

The verse explains that resurrected bodies will be ‘angelized’ or spiritualised, and will become spirit-creatures. However, Jesus states that he is flesh not a spirit ( i.e. he has not been resurrected).
Code:
2. Contradiction ?There is a question as to what hour was Jesus actually crucified. The following verses of the Bible seem to contradict each other.
“It was the third hour, and they crucified him.” (Mark 15:25)
“It was the sixth hour, and he was not crucified yet.” (John 19:14)

Another is the place where Jesus was put.

“They put Jesus on the cross.” (Mark 15:21)
“They put Jesus on the tree.” (1 Peter 2:24 see also Gal. 3:13)

And, doubt in how Judas died:

“Judas went and hanged himself.” (Mathew 27:5)
“Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.” (Acts 1:18)
2. The Sign of Jonas.Matthew records that the learned men among the Jews – the Scribes and Pharisees – came to Jesus and asked:

“Master, we would see a sign from thee” Jesus replies:

“An evil and adulterous generations seeketh after a sign; And there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the Prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; So shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Mathew 12:39-40).

We understand the following from the above verses:
  1. Jesus Christ stands or falls by the only sign (i.e. miracle) he was prepared to give: the special sign similar to that of Jonas.
  2. The sign of Jonas is: Jonas **lived **inside the whale for 3 days and 3 nights.
  3. The sign that Jesus is going to give: remain buried in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.
Although, the sign of Jonas states that Jonas ***lived ***in the whale, Christians believe that Jesus died and was dead while fulfilling the sign, we will not argue that point there . Christians say that: it is the time factor that Jesus was stressing.

Cont.
 
The whole Christian world believes that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon. According to the Gospel, the Jews were in a hurry to eliminate Jesus. However, as much as they were in a hurry to hang him on the cross, they were in equal hurry to bring him down from the cross before sunset on Friday because of the Sabbath. The Sabbath starts at about 6 p.m. on Friday and the Jews were warned in Deuteronomy 21:23 that the victim of crucifixion was an “accursed of God” and was not to be permitted to remain hanging on the Sabbath day, “that thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance”. To satisfy the religious scruples of the Scribes and Pharisees the “secret disciples” of Jesus took down the body from the cross. They gave the body the Jewish burial-bath, plastered it with “one hundred pounds weight of aaloes and myrrh” (John 19:39), then placed the shrouded body into the sepulcher before night-fall.
Code:
Three Days and Three Nights.We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning (the First day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty. This means that Jesus was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday Day, and Saturday Night which does not add up to three days and three nights.
Furthermore, the Jews (like the early Muslims) considered the day to start after sunset. Which means that Saturday would start on what we would consider in our modern day and age Friday after sunset. Similarly, Sunday would start on Saturday after sunset.

Some argue: any part of the day is a day! No matter how poor this argument is (since Jonas spent 3 days and 3 nights in full) we shall examine that argument. We shall assume that Jesus was “dead” and buried before sunset on Friday (and not after). And that he remained in the tomb until few minutes before Mary Magdalene examined the tomb on Sunday morning. So, if any part of the day is a day, then:

In those very relaxed conditions, there are 3 days and only 2 nights. So there is a night missing compared to the prophecy!
*]Friday day is the 1st day.
Friday night becomes the 1st night.
Saturday day is the 2nd Day.
Saturday night is the 2nd night.
Sunday day is 3rd day.
 
Jesus has 2 natures, divine and human. Because of the human component, Jesus as a man prayed, followed God’s laws, etc. His very essence as a man with both a human nature and a divine nature makes him the mediator between God and man. The divine person within him existed as part of God long before Jesus the man was born (or any human being was born). Also, being the Word of God, generated from Him, as the second person in the trinity, makes Him different than the Father, but no less God.
The Muslim also gave a short talk on why Jesus is not God. The nearest thing I found online was this quote from a Muslim site.

God said in bible

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

Bible
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 For I am God, and not man

if God is not a man, and jesus is man, then jesus is not God, simple fact

Bible
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God

but people have seen Jesus, that is why jesus is not God.

If jesus was God, what kind of God is this

God that does nor know stuff?

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

What kind of God is this who can’t do anything?

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus was a man acredited by God, not that he is God?

Acts 2:22 "Men of israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

if jesus was God, what kind of God is jesus when he need to be acredited by another God

Jesus God have another God??? 2 Gods?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

and jesus himself said this

Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.

What kind of God prays to another God?

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed

this is evidence from your own bible that jesus was not God
 
I can’t cut and paste in response to each specific point so I’ll give a general response to each section as far as I can.

John, “Mary and the other Mary”, and many others in Jerusalem saw Jesus marched to Golgotha and nailed to the cross. They saw a centurion pierce him with a lance, his dead body taken down, and placed into a tomb. When they saw him on Easter, they thought he was a ghost not because they were confused by hearsay, but because they thought he was dead and now they were seeing him. This in no way casts doubt on the crucifixion. Also, the teaching of the Church is that the body is resurrected with the soul, not “spiritualized” in the sense that they are saying. Jesus’s body and soul eventually ascended to heaven, and Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. The likeness to angels does not mean a purely spiritual resurrection.

The discrepancies in the different time frames also cast no doubt on the fact of the crucifixion. If there were a discrepancy in one of the accounts stating that Jesus somehow escaped from the garden of Gethsemane and was hence never crucified, that would be noteworthy. These discrepancies are not. I read an interesting theory which basically states that the early Christians would remember the events of Good Friday during a 24-hour vigil, and that the accounts of the synoptic Gospels were meant to be used as a template for remembering each key event from the Last Supper to the burial. They were not meant to be a literal time frame of what time Jesus ate, was questioned, nailed to the cross, etc.

Three days and nights is meant to be a figure of speech, not a literal time frame. The miracle of Jonah is not the length of time that he was in the fish, but the fact that he emerged alive. A typical Muslim response to this is that Jonah was alive the whole time, and therefore by comparison Jesus must have been alive the whole time (ie. not crucified and killed) but that is both right and wrong. The body of Jesus had died but the soul had not and was not ultimately killed by the crucifixion. So the miracle is that he defeated death and showed this to everyone.

Also, the confusion about how Judas died is likely because they were relying on hearsay in this case and weren’t sure how he died. Again, this has nothing to do with the reality of the crucifixion.
We understand the following from the above verses:
  1. Jesus Christ stands or falls by the only sign (i.e. miracle) he was prepared to give: the special sign similar to that of Jonas.
  2. The sign of Jonas is: Jonas **lived **inside the whale for 3 days and 3 nights.
  3. The sign that Jesus is going to give: remain buried in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.
Although, the sign of Jonas states that Jonas ***lived ***in the whale, Christians believe that Jesus died and was dead while fulfilling the sign, we will not argue that point there . Christians say that: it is the time factor that Jesus was stressing.

Cont.
 
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