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The Archbishop of New York--too many externals of the faith have been tossed out (including in the liturgy)
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malphono
Guest
His Grace made some very interesting observations. It seems to me so much of the post-conciliar era has become “Catholic-lite” (personally I would use “neo-Catholic” but it amounts to the same thing). Make things “easier” (like transferring Holy Day observances, e.g.) because people don’t have the time? Why? Are they too busy yakking away on their cell-phones?
It would, IMHO, be a great thing for His Grace to offer Solemn Mass according to the Usus Antiquior at the High Altar of the Cathedral. That simple act would speak volumes.
It would, IMHO, be a great thing for His Grace to offer Solemn Mass according to the Usus Antiquior at the High Altar of the Cathedral. That simple act would speak volumes.
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TrueLight
Guest
With all due respect to our Bishop and Archibishop, the FSSP has been blocked from establishing a traditional parish in NYC for years.
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aicirt
Guest
I don’t know how we found the time to do all the things we did back when. Went to Catholic school where 8 AM Mass was mandatory plus Novena on Monday afternoon. Fasted from Saturday at midnight…just water…until communion which could be at the 12 PM Mass. Walked to church. Holidays a must. Fasted on Fridays. Actually waited, as a teenager, after a dance to order a burger. I don’t believe anyone asked for this to be changed. Grew up in a metropolitan area of NYC. Nuns were abundant. You could identify them by their dress and also their order. Made you feel safe. I just started to wear a medal exposed for all to see because I believe it makes a statement in this secular world where there is so much distractions from the holy.
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malphono
Guest
Wasn’t that done by his predecessor? Either way, though, that Solemn Mass in the Usus Antiquior at the High Altar of St Pat’s would be a message to the world.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
On the one hand I do feel like we have lost some of our Catholic identity. On the other hand, I’m not sure that trying to force it back will work.
Suppose the bishops beef up the schedule for holy days–no more moving them to Sunday or dispensing the obligation to attend Mass when they fall on Saturday or Monday. Be there or you have committed a sin.
Will people make a big effort to get to Mass? Or will they say “I don’t see missing Mass as a big deal,” and either not come or even see that as a reason to leave the Church entirely (“who cares about their arbitrary rules anyway?”).
Suppose the bishops beef up the schedule for holy days–no more moving them to Sunday or dispensing the obligation to attend Mass when they fall on Saturday or Monday. Be there or you have committed a sin.
Will people make a big effort to get to Mass? Or will they say “I don’t see missing Mass as a big deal,” and either not come or even see that as a reason to leave the Church entirely (“who cares about their arbitrary rules anyway?”).
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Celticnovice
Guest
If we want the externals, then we must be the ones to ask for them back…I want them back
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drforjc
Guest
It is admittedly a tough situation… I favor the “brick by brick” (hat tip to Fr. Zuhlsdorf) approach. Gradual progress with good catechesis and not giving up when results are slow is key.
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At_Trent
Guest
Every day it seems, another Bishop says some of the same things traditionalists have been saying for years.
Pray for this Bishop, and all Bishops
Pray for this Bishop, and all Bishops
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At_Trent
Guest
The Church has a great treasure chest full of them for the taking
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I feel like these externals keep us in line. They serve as a way to keep our consciences straight. If I have something that makes me actively think about the religion I am part of, I’m more likely to respect other aspects of it. Sure, not eating meat on Friday isn’t a huge deal in and of itself, but we’re humans, and nothing is ever “in and of itself,” standing arbitrary and alone; not eating meat, for example, reminds us of our other obligations and reinforces a sense of guilt. When we start chipping away at these things, this web of reminders and reinforcements of the faith starts to corrupt, and we start respecting and adhering to our faith less. Religions that are rich, full of actions and obligations, are the ones that stay around, and the ones that are, without a doubt, “religions.” If that makes sense.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
I think you raise some valid points. However, if we think that way we can not achieve things. Perhaps we need to be a little more positive and try to do these things. From acorns …
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Cat
Guest
I agree with this.
The big difference between now and then is that so many women work. Like it or not, in most families, it is the mom who determines whether or not the family will make it to church. If Mom is at work, good chance that no one will make it to church. (In two-parent homes, Dad is probably at work, too, and the kids are in a daycare or with a sitter.)
It is hard enough for many women to juggle full-time work, child-rearing responsibilities, and household chores, especially planning, cooking, serving, and cleaning up after dinner. Even when other family members help with the food chores, Mom is still supervising–she’s seldom on vacation when it comes to feeding the family.
I think that it’s highly unlikely that we will ever see a time again when Moms are staying home with the family. If anything, we’re seeing more and more households where both Mom and Dad are juggling TWO jobs or more to try to earn enough money to support their family and pay for schools, since so many public schools have disintegrated.
This kind of schedule makes it very hard for families to be involved with their parishes beyond the obligations. If the Boss says “You work,” well, what is the alternative? Poverty? That’s easier said than done. Cutting back? Definitely, but many families have already cut back, and they’re in debt anyway, regardless of Mr. Ramsey’s attempts to help all people be debt-free.
My husband and I were evangelical Protestants for the first 47 years of our lives, and in the last ten years or so (late 1990s, early 2000s), we saw a definite decline in the numbers of people who were willing to step up and get involved with various church activities and ministries. Usually evangelical Moms try very hard to stay home full-time with their children, but the bad economy and the need to send children to Christian schools forced a lot of moms to dust off that college diploma and get a paying job outside the home, unless they were willing to homeschool, which many families did in our evangelical Protestant churches. But not every family is suited for homeschooling.
It’s a tough call. I personally think that a lot of the Feast Days and Holy Days are not necessarily held on a historically-accurate “day” anyway, so why not move the days to a convenient time for most of the country? Take Christmas, e.g., Everyone knows that Jesus was not born on December 24, 1 A.D. I’ve heard people speculate that the real date of His birth was in March. So should we move Christmas to March? Of course not. So if we can move Christmas, one of the most Holy Days of the year, to December, then why can’t we move the other Holy Days to whatever day is best-suited? After all, we’re not celebrating the DAY, but the SAINT or the OCCASION.
I personally think we should accept modern times and stop trying to go back to a past that is gone and will never return.
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1SeekingChrist
Guest
I don’t think the issue is that we need to bring back things we have lost from the past (though in some cases I think that can be good) but more that we need to progress into the future. The Church for the past 50 years has been, and still is, in a state of transition, I believe, from the “walls up” defensiveness that began at the Council of Trent in response to the mass rebellion during the protestant reformation to a reintegration into the world that began at Vatican II. Not everything that has happened since and even as a result of Vatican II has been good, quite to the contrary. However, if the Catholic Church is to thrive, we need to be responsive to the needs of the world we live in and Vatican II laid the stage to do that. (As a brief aside, it’s interesting that we’re having these problems in the Church and we haven’t been very faithful to the decrees of that Council…)
Let’s face it, the culture has changed quite a bit since the 1570’s! The world has gotten a lot smaller and there’s a lot more in it. Is that a good thing? Depends on who you talk to really, but it is not intrinsically good or evil, it just is. So, as a Church, we need to adapt to this, and it’s up to our bishops and pope to figure out how this ancient church with its rich heritage and traditions can actually do that.
What’s really important are the doctrines regarding faith and morals, the sacredness of our liturgy, the administering of the sacraments, the apostolic mark of the church and love for our God. Many of the things mentioned in the Archbishop’s blog are simply devotional practices, many made mandatory at one time or another by the church, but still devotions. Devotions are things that help us remember our faith and live our faith. Devotions are created for man, not man for the devotions (if I may be so bold as to adapt that phrase from our Lord Jesus). It may be wonderful to bring some of the old practices back (I’d love, personally, for more real Latin to be reintroduced into the liturgy and for Sacred Music -Gregorian Chant anyone?- to be played during Mass instead of David Crowder) but I think new devotions and practices that can fit into the busy confines of modern families will have much more effect.
Let’s face it, the culture has changed quite a bit since the 1570’s! The world has gotten a lot smaller and there’s a lot more in it. Is that a good thing? Depends on who you talk to really, but it is not intrinsically good or evil, it just is. So, as a Church, we need to adapt to this, and it’s up to our bishops and pope to figure out how this ancient church with its rich heritage and traditions can actually do that.
What’s really important are the doctrines regarding faith and morals, the sacredness of our liturgy, the administering of the sacraments, the apostolic mark of the church and love for our God. Many of the things mentioned in the Archbishop’s blog are simply devotional practices, many made mandatory at one time or another by the church, but still devotions. Devotions are things that help us remember our faith and live our faith. Devotions are created for man, not man for the devotions (if I may be so bold as to adapt that phrase from our Lord Jesus). It may be wonderful to bring some of the old practices back (I’d love, personally, for more real Latin to be reintroduced into the liturgy and for Sacred Music -Gregorian Chant anyone?- to be played during Mass instead of David Crowder) but I think new devotions and practices that can fit into the busy confines of modern families will have much more effect.
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mrose1
Guest
To follow up on At Trent’s comment, I would refer our discussion to a recent post on the excellent blog Rorate Caeli:
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/09/tectonic-shifts-for-roman-curia-end-of.html
They note similar things. I dearly hope that His Excellency Archbishop Dolan’s musings on the matter will turn into concrete action.
The attitude of not promoting Catholic observance of the Catholic religion in an effort to make things easier has had disastrous effects. Please, dear Bishops, bring back the Holy Days, the fast days - we want to be Catholic!!
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/09/tectonic-shifts-for-roman-curia-end-of.html
They note similar things. I dearly hope that His Excellency Archbishop Dolan’s musings on the matter will turn into concrete action.
The attitude of not promoting Catholic observance of the Catholic religion in an effort to make things easier has had disastrous effects. Please, dear Bishops, bring back the Holy Days, the fast days - we want to be Catholic!!
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
The question isn’t whether Catholics observe these things, it’s whether they are required to observe them.
If there is a holy day on a Monday and the requirement to attend Mass has been abrogated, there’s is nothing to prevent you from going to Mass anyway. Most parishes have weekday Masses and you can simply go at the regular weekday Mass time.
If it’s Friday you can abstain from meat. It’s a choice you can make.
Several years ago after Lent was over I decided to continue abstaining from meat on Friday and see how it worked out. It seemed to do something for me spiritually – it was a small penance and it made me feel more connected to the Church. So I continued. It doesn’t matter if the bishops require it or not, it has become part of my spiritual practice.
I think the real issue is why will people do something if the bishops require it, but not do it on their own initiative?
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