The "Are you Catholic or Christian" Question

[JonNC]

Touche’.

…and with that, I’ll simply yield the last [substantive] word on this little exchange, to you, sir.

My last word would be may you be blessed this Holy Week, and Easter.

Jon

 

[ephesians4]

The only logically correct answer to that question is no.

“No I am not. Ask me again with an ‘and’ instead of an ‘or’ if you like.”

 

[MaryT777]

I brought Luther into the conversation, because he was the impetus for the multitude of denominations, via the doctrine he championed–sola scriptura–hence ‘founder’. He is the founder of portestantism, and therefore I attribute his most wayard offspring, to him–even if they have in turn, ‘protested’ against his view of Christianity. What authority could Luther site, to prevent anyone else from interpretting the Bible in such a way as he did not approve? He himself, breached the walls of authority. He cannot then turn around, and claim to be indignant over others following in his footsteps…even if they proceed to trample right over him…

I’ll give the Lutherans due credit for exercising restraint where others have not–but I don’t see that restraint as credit to Luther, as much as I see the lack thereof by other denominations, as directly attributable to him, by following the precedent that he himself, set.

As for ‘the alliance’ to which you refer–sadly, there is probably greater resistence to the HHS mandate (and the like) from many anit-catholic denominations, than from Catholics themselves (not including the Church), as so many US Catholics are social liberals. And so we see the Catholic Church, alligning with Evangelicals, and the like, to combat liberalism…and fighting against many of her own members–‘catholics’.

Politics makes for strange bedfellows indeed…

…and nothing binds us like a common foes.

And so against the atheists, secularists, meterialists, modernists, radical muslims, neo-liberals and so many other philosophies against Christian values…

Why then, we’re all CHRISTIAN.

Kumbaya, baby!

Kumbaya Catholic brother!
Mary.

 

[DaveBj]

I don’t get the grass analolgy–though I do get the denial…and would note that it only applies to other ‘denominations’–not the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Yeshua Himself founded–somehow, that one is exempt from the self imposed injunction against sheep-theft of other protestant churches (‘honor among thieves?’ ).

IOW: apparently it’s ok to steal from the Church that Christ founded…

…but not from the churches** that Martin Luther founded.

So very…Christian…

FWIW, the “planting grass” thing refers to making what they do in their services so attractive (read: entertaining) that people will leave other churches and come to theirs.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The only logically correct answer to that question is no.

“No I am not. Ask me again with an ‘and’ instead of an ‘or’ if you like.”

OTOH, you are one or the other, and in fact, you are both, logically speaking, that is. .

 

[ephesians4]

OTOH, you are one or the other, and in fact, you are both, logically speaking, that is. .

Not when the question requires you to assent to/confirm an exclusive disjunction to answer “Catholic” - which is after all why people ask it that way, and why this thread is here.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Not when the question requires you to assent to/confirm an exclusive disjunction to answer “Catholic” - which is after all why people ask it that way, and why this thread is here.

So you are assuming the intent of the questioner? Maybe they just want to know if you are Christian and if so whether you are a Catholic Christian. But I really do like that term, “exclusive disjunction,” I just don’t think it is necessarily the case.

 

[ephesians4]

So you are assuming the intent of the questioner? Maybe they just want to know if you are Christian and if so whether you are a Catholic Christian. But I really do like that term, “exclusive disjunction,” I just don’t think it is necessarily the case.

You say intent - I have a bad habit if I’m in a frivolous and/or annoying mood of answering multiple choice questions “Yes, please”, or “No, thank you” on the basis of a “correct” interpretation of “would you like (x or y)”. Yeah I know, I’m a riot at parties

Of course you’re quite right in that what you say is a valid interpretation - the beauty of using a question like “Are you Catholic or Christian?” to subtly poke at somebody is the ambiguity of “or” when posed in question form (where we tend not to specify a difference with “either”) - that implied exclusive or has precisely the same form as a perfectly innocent inclusive one - multiple meanings being, of course, the basis of all accomplished sarcasm.

I think it’s still generally sarcasm though, as it is a quite deliberate and odd way to form the question - but I take your point since I try to assume the best of people myself.

PS: Wow, it’s very easy to tell when I’m at a loose end. What a silly post, sorry.

 

[Goya]

FWIW, the “planting grass” thing refers to making what they do in their services so attractive (read: entertaining) that people will leave other churches and come to theirs.

Thank you sir.

 

[Goya]

Kumbaya Catholic brother!
Mary.

Funny–just this morning, a calvinist buddy of mine, with whom I have had many a heated discussion about religion–has been texting/emailing me, about gay marriage issue (I’ve responded of course). Seems when your in the trenches, the differences between you and the guy next to you in your foxhole, lose their significance…

…ah, the uniting force of a common foe…

Let us defeat the enemy quickly…that we may promptly take up arms against one another…again.

 

[MaryT777]

Funny–just this morning, a calvinist buddy of mine, with whom I have had many a heated discussion about religion–has been texting/emailing me, about gay marriage issue (I’ve responded of course). Seems when your in the trenches, the differences between you and the guy next to you in your foxhole, lose their significance…

…ah, the uniting force of a common foe…

Let us defeat the enemy quickly…that we may promptly take up arms against one another…again.

Great point.
Mary.

 

[ephesians4]

Funny–just this morning, a calvinist buddy of mine, with whom I have had many a heated discussion about religion–has been texting/emailing me, about gay marriage issue (I’ve responded of course). Seems when your in the trenches, the differences between you and the guy next to you in your foxhole, lose their significance…

…ah, the uniting force of a common foe…

Let us defeat the enemy quickly…that we may promptly take up arms against one another…again.

The attacks on Christianity and Christians have certainly not hurt unity. I have heard and seen the words brother and sister used between Christians of different denominations more in the last year than in the rest of my life. Some may even be painting on the Chi-Roh who otherwise would not have felt called to.

When it comes to it, we are all for the lions in the arena for our loyalty to our Lord, lions that don’t differentiate between a baptist and a Catholic - and the whole Christian world knows it.

 

[Goya]

The attacks on Christianity and Christians have certainly not hurt unity. I have heard and seen the words brother and sister used between Christians of different denominations more in the last year than in the rest of my life. Some may even be painting on the Chi-Roh who otherwise would not have felt called to.

When it comes to it, we are all for the lions in the arena for our loyalty to our Lord, lions that don’t differentiate between a baptist and a Catholic - and the whole Christian world knows it.

Is this a reference to the lions in the areans, which were pitted against Christians?

Perhaps I’m mis-reading your analogy, but I’d like to think we’re all for the Christians, and agianst the lions. I certainly am.

…again, maybe I misread–feel free to clarify.

 

[Julianna]

The easiest way I have found to quell this question is, I ask questions?

Do you believe in God the Father and that Jesus Christ is his only son, born of Mary?

The answer is yes.

Do you believe he was crucified, died and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day?

The answer is yes.

Do you believe he will come again?

The answer is yes.

Then, yes, I am a Christian.

basically you recite the creed as a question…

 

[ephesians4]

Is this a reference to the lions in the areans, which were pitted against Christians?

Perhaps I’m mis-reading your analogy, but I’d like to think we’re all for the Christians, and agianst the lions. I certainly am.

…again, maybe I misread–feel free to clarify.

Sure thing

You might say “for the lions”, as in being “for the guillotine”, “for the chop” etc., which has the opposite meaning to “for the disestablishment of the church”. It might be less common down your way than mine, or just due to my poor sentence construction.

In short the analogy is as you might have expected, we are all for the lions as in… on their meal plan.

 

[Goya]

Sure thing

You might say “for the lions”, as in being “for the guillotine”, “for the chop” etc., which has the opposite meaning to “for the disestablishment of the church”. It might be less common down your way than mine, or just due to my poor sentence construction.

In short the analogy is as you might have expected, we are all for the lions as in… on their meal plan.

Ok, I think I get it. A ‘colloquialism’, meaning the opposite of what it says. Would ‘break a leg’ in thespian vernacular, be a good parallel?

If so, then we’re solid.

 

[JamesCaruso]

You say intent - I have a bad habit if I’m in a frivolous and/or annoying mood of answering multiple choice questions “Yes, please”, or “No, thank you” on the basis of a “correct” interpretation of “would you like (x or y)”. Yeah I know, I’m a riot at parties

Of course you’re quite right in that what you say is a valid interpretation - the beauty of using a question like “Are you Catholic or Christian?” to subtly poke at somebody is the ambiguity of “or” when posed in question form (where we tend not to specify a difference with “either”) - that implied exclusive or has precisely the same form as a perfectly innocent inclusive one - multiple meanings being, of course, the basis of all accomplished sarcasm.

I think it’s still generally sarcasm though, as it is a quite deliberate and odd way to form the question - but I take your point since I try to assume the best of people myself.

PS: Wow, it’s very easy to tell when I’m at a loose end. What a silly post, sorry.

No, not silly. And what you said, “I try to assume the best of people” was voiced another way in St. Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises, of which I am only slightly acquainted, where he advises to always try to put a good construction on whatever someone says. I’d say you’re in good company.

 

[guildenstern]

I prefer Catholic over Christian. I feel like a Christian only believes in Christ. As a Catholic, meaning universal, I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Sacraments, the Church founded on Peter, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc.

Thank you for bringing up this topic, I feel exactly the same way!
Beeing catholic educated is nothing one has to be ashamed for, quite the opposite!!

 

[ephesians4]

No, not silly. And what you said, “I try to assume the best of people” was voiced another way in St. Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises, of which I am only slightly acquainted, where he advises to always try to put a good construction on whatever someone says. I’d say you’re in good company.

Indeed! I think it has saved me a lot of stress and tension in my life since I started consciously applying it - as much as I can anyway.

Ok, I think I get it. A ‘colloquialism’, meaning the opposite of what it says. Would ‘break a leg’ in thespian vernacular, be a good parallel?

Think of it more as like a contraction of “bound for” or “intended for” - as in
“he is for the chop”, “that meat is for the grinder”, or “you’ll be for it” (meaning you’re going to catch it, or get it - ie: you are in trouble), it’s not so much a colloquialism reversing meaning as a usage you might not have come across before.

I can’t be 100% sure about this, but I think you might possibly be more likely to hear it from an Irish/English/Welsh/Scottish/Aussie speaker, or somebody from elsewhere who was educated in English English, than in American English? You certainly see it in books.

“Down my way” being (as my family would point out with much hilarity ) Victorian England.

On that note this is one of my absolute favourite little things in life - noticing some usage of common words/phrases that either I hadn’t encountered, or hadn’t noticed before (well in this case it is you discovering but hey). Isn’t it strange how tiny things make us happy?

 

[HaveFaith8]

Sorry for the late reply; thanks for the reassurance that I’m not being too scrupulous