The Argument from Miracles: The Resurrection

  • Thread starter Thread starter danserr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for engaging with absolutely none of the content mentioned by the OP.
You might want to consider that it is indeed directly engaging with the content of the OP to observe that it’s very possible that these “facts” might not have happened as claimed in the stories.
If those three facts are true
That’s a mighty big “if,” and that’s the point I was making. We don’t have sufficient evidence to think that things actually happened as claimed by the Gospels.
What you’re arguing is not that the best explanation of these facts is that they created a legend. I’m not even sure what that means. What you’re arguing is that they are not actually facts.
What I’m arguing, to make it clear, is that we don’t have any good reason to suspect that things actually happened as claimed by the Gospels.

Is it possible that the Gospel stories were based on the life and teachings of a real person? Sure, in the same way that the King Arthur stories may have been based on the exploits of a real king. But the fact that stories might be based loosely on real people or events doesn’t mean that everything in the stories is true, and it certainly doesn’t make any magical things reported in the stories any more likely to be true.

It’s possible that stories sprang up about a popular moral teacher after his death, and it’s very possible that these stories were embellished with tales of magic, as was the custom in ancient societies (histories of Roman emperors and generals, for example, contain tales of magic that we do not accept as accurate, even though the figures were real people). The “witnesses” of the supposed magic in these stories might have just been characters in the stories – perhaps these characters were based loosely on real people who followed this charismatic teacher around.

It’s all too far back in the past to take any of these stories as good evidence for thinking it really happened the way the stories tell it.
 
It is an excellent argument, danserr. Unfortunately, it will take a few decades before scholarship on this issue shakes off the German Lutheran tradition of biblical scholarship and catches up with the Catholic Church on this one. We have to wait for the old codgers to die off. 😛 All that being said, though, the three facts you discussed are established even with this terrible tradition in mind, which is awesome.
yes, that’s one of the problem with Anti-theist’s mention of consulting only a few bible editions. They may be older and are certainly done by the older generation. New scholarship does take a while to filter down.
 
You have said nothing about evidence for the empty tomb, the resurrection appearances, and the origin of Christian belief all of which you would have to dismiss or explain away in some way to maintain the legend hypothesis.
The “empty tomb” and “resurrection appearances” are parts of the stories. What reason do you have – outside of the stories – for thinking that either of those things actually happened?

EDIT: And no, Paul doesn’t count. He wasn’t there for the supposed event, and he’s talking about the stories.
 
The “empty tomb” and “resurrection appearances” are parts of the stories. What reason do you have – outside of the stories – for thinking that either of those things actually happened?
Again, you have not refuted a single one of my arguments.
Nothing I have said depends on me saying “the bible says so, therefore it happened.” Historians use even unreliable resources (you see, I don’t even require you to consider the bible a reliable source), to pull out valuable nuggets of information. All I am saying is that when treated as normal historical sources the gospels and paul’s letters suffice to establish the 3 facts mentioned as historically probable.
 
All I am saying is that when treated as normal historical sources the gospels and paul’s letters suffice to establish the 3 facts mentioned as historically probable.
So, to be clear, the evidence you are talking about is drawn from the stories and from one guy who wasn’t there but who is talking about the stories?
 
So, to be clear, the evidence you are talking about is drawn from the stories and from one guy who wasn’t there but who is talking about the stories?
Your repeated refusal to engage with any of my points, especially in the OP or post 19 is noted. Please do so.
 
AT - You love evidence so much, how about you give some evidence that the Gospels are just legends, folklore?
 
Eyewitness testimony cannot confirm that magic happened.

For example, an eyewitness account of an alien abduction wouldn’t be sufficient to confirm that aliens really visited the planet and abducted someone.
But if there was multiple attestation and no reason to doubt it, it would be enough.
Similarly, if you had a bunch of eyewitness accounts of Jesus appearing after his death, it would be good evidence that a number of people sincerely thought they saw the guy. It wouldn’t tell us how it was done, of course. Was it a miracle? Did he fake his death somehow? Did he have a twin unknown to others?
All of these hypotheses have been answered.
Of course, and this is the important point, you don’t have any eyewitness accounts of any of it. You have a bunch of anonymous texts that most scholars date to late in the first century. That’s it. Completely unconvincing.
So, why are they unreliable? Almost all of ancient history is based on non-eyewitness accounts.
 
If true, then the Resurrection is the greatest event in human history. So why was it such a non-event? It was more like a “stealth” Resurrection. Why was it so secretive? I can understand why Jesus would keep His identity as the Incarnate God a secret up through His crucifixion, but why after? The Resurrection is a triumphal moment that doesn’t come across as triumphal at all.

And why the Ascension? If Jesus loved us enough to suffer and die on the Cross for our sins, then why didn’t He love us enough to stick around and tell us about it? Why did He zip up to heaven after only 40 days?

“Jesus has risen from the dead? That’s wonderful! Let’s go see Him!”

“We can’t.”

“Why not?”

“He ascended into heaven.”

“Hmmm…”

It’s the Ascension that turns the Resurrection into a fish story. (It’s interesting that the fish was the earliest symbol in Christianity. I wonder if “fish story” meant the same thing back then that it does today.)

Man is notorious for telling tall tales and for making the rest of us suckers, chumps, and fools for believing them. Does God really expect me to believe this stuff coming out of the mouths of men without some confirmation by God Himself? For example, on Easter morning it would be nice if a full moon would appear in the sky with the words “Jesus is Risen” on it. I don’t think that that is asking too much. After all, didn’t Jesus say that you should not hide a light under a bushel?
 
@ gentle atheist

You have not actually engaged with any of my arguments either. I have given good reasons for thinking there was an empty tomb, there were appearances of the risen Christ, and the earliest disciples came to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. I have then argued that the best explanation of these events is that Jesus really did rise from the dead leaving behind him an empty tomb. Like, AT, you are dodging the point.
then why didn’t He love us enough to stick around and tell us about it?
He appeared to the apostles and more than 500 brethren all at once, that’s telling quite a lot of people.
For example, on Easter morning it would be nice if a full moon would appear in the sky with the words “Jesus is Risen” on it. I don’t think that that is asking too much. After all, didn’t Jesus say that you should not hide a light under a bushel?
And you know perfectly well that if that happened you would say “Man is notorious for making the rest of us suckers, chumps, and fools for believing them,” and then dismiss it as a hoax. Come on, this is just a popular cop out.

At any rate, some day Jesus will return and stay with us. But the Resurrection was not only a one time event, it is also an achievement to be worked out. Jesus did the hard part, but man is supposed to participate in it.

None of this stuff you wrote even engages with the evidence I have suggested, let alone refutes it. Consider the evidence.
 
If historians use the same approach to determine the validity of the resurrection of Jesus that they use to determine the validity of the life and death of such people of antiquity as Homer and Plato, then the resurrection of Jesus comes across as the most historical event ever recorded. Historians who seek for the historical proof of any event in the past must base their proof upon a collection of information from the best obtainable evidence of documentary sources. Therefore, using the common method that historians must use to determine the reality of any event from the past, if the eyewitness account of the resurrection of Jesus is a myth, then so is the eyewitness account of every well-established event that happened before the invention of cell phones, camcorders, and instant news.
 
I have given good reasons for thinking …
You have given no good reasons. If you could show that those legends are correct and historically accurate events, you would have good reasons. But you do not.
And you know perfectly well that if that happened you would say “Man is notorious for making the rest of us suckers, chumps, and fools for believing them,” and then dismiss it as a hoax. Come on, this is just a popular cop out.
Actually, yours is a just a “popular cop out”, when a skeptic asks for a real sign of God’s existence. Which is funny, since you wish to assert that a 2000 years old “miracle” is a proof, and you think it should be taken seriously. Now you say that a real miracle, covered by a plethora of journalists and TV from around the world would be also disregarded by the skeptics.

The old story comes to mind: “there was a guy who boasted about his huge jump on the island of Rhodos. The skeptics around him simply said: ‘Hic Rhodos, hic salta!’. (This is Rhodos, jump here!)”. No, buddy, don’t try to hide behind your “cop out” of: “you would dismiss that miracle, too”. Nonsense. It is easy to set up a miracle, which cannot be “explained away”.
 
You have given no good reasons. If you could show that those legends are correct and historically accurate events, you would have good reasons. But you do not.

Actually, yours is a just a “popular cop out”, when a skeptic asks for a real sign of God’s existence. Which is funny, since you wish to assert that a 2000 years old “miracle” is a proof, and you think it should be taken seriously. Now you say that a real miracle, covered by a plethora of journalists and TV from around the world would be also disregarded by the skeptics.

The old story comes to mind: “there was a guy who boasted about his huge jump on the island of Rhodos. The skeptics around him simply said: ‘Hic Rhodos, hic salta!’. (This is Rhodos, jump here!)”. No, buddy, don’t try to hide behind your “cop out” of: “you would dismiss that miracle, too”. Nonsense. It is easy to set up a miracle, which cannot be “explained away”.
I observe your complete refusal to actually engage with a single point I have made especially in my OP and post 19, where I said more about the legend hypothesis. Did you even read it?

I have given specific reasons for the empty tomb, appearances, and origin of Christian belief, you have offered no reason to doubt them, nor have you given even one reason or piece of evidence for the legend hypothesis. You seem to think that you can substitute your ridicule and scorn for rational argument.

To repeat again, nothing I have said rests on assuming the gospels were written down early, were by the original authors, or were even reliable sources. (I believe all 3 on historical grounds, but that is simply irrelevant for the argument). Even poor sources may provide valuable nuggets of info from which we may draw conclusions.

I have jumped. I have presented the evidence, which you have not refuted, nor perhaps, even read.
 
I observe your complete refusal to actually engage with a single point I have made especially in my OP and post 19, where I said more about the legend hypothesis.
All your “points” are based on the assumption that you presented some historical events - and that is precisely what is missing. Presenting some unsubstantiated and alleged “historical” events does not make them so.
To repeat again, nothing I have said rests on assuming the gospels were written down early, were by the original authors, or were even reliable sources.
You got to be kidding. If they are not reliable, then what are you talking about? Some fairy tales “supporting” other fairy tales???
 
All your “points” are based on the assumption that you presented some historical events - and that is precisely what is missing. Presenting some unsubstantiated and alleged “historical” events does not make them so.

You got to be kidding. If they are not reliable, then what are you talking about? Some fairy tales “supporting” other fairy tales???
Again you refuse to engage with my specific arguments. Please stop dodging the issue and pick at least a few to engage with. I presented historical evidence for the empty tomb-you have ignored it. I presented historical evidence for the risen appearance- you have ignore it. I presented evidence for the origin of Christian belief and its relevance- you have ignored it.
-You seem incapable of refuting any of those points or offering a single reason in favor of the legend hypothesis.

As for your second comment, stop being ridiculous. Historians do this all the time, pulling valuable nuggets of information from sources whose reliability they doubt. That hardly makes those sources fairy tales. I do think the gospels are reliable sources, but that is not necessary to establish the points I have picked. I have not said “the gospels say so, therefore it is true,” but “the gospels say x, and this implies y.”

Like every skeptic on this thread you appear unable or unwilling to actually refute any evidence I have provided and just want to mock.
 
Like every skeptic on this thread you appear unable or unwilling to actually refute any evidence I have provided and just want to mock.
I have said this before on other threads, but many atheists have an indiscriminate distrust of the whole Bible. If you press them on it, their distrust is rather vague, which is usually a sign that their knowledge on the issue is very shallow.
 
Here is the sketch of an argument for the Resurrection. It is very brief, so it would be good if people would read a little more before considering it.
reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5351


**I. The Three historical facts. **

A). Jesus’ Burial and discovery of his empty tomb three days later.
  1. The discovery of the empty tomb in multiply attested in early, independent sources. The pre-marken passion source, Paul’s letter to Corinthians mentions it, Matthew is an independent source since he includes the guard at the tomb, which is not in Mark.
    **2. Mark’s story is simple and lacks significant legendary development. (esp. compared to later Gnostic gospels which are real legends. **…
You should also point out that the resurrection testimony handed down to Paul is only single-digit years old after the death of Jesus. In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, he says that he had been persecuting the Christians, and three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem and discussed with Peter for 15 days. Certainly within the timeframe of his persecution of the Christians, his three years after his conversion, and his meeting with Peter, he received or heard of the resurrection testimony that he recounts in 1 Corinthians. Therefore, the death, empty tomb, and resurrection of Jesus is a very early tradition, not a legend concocted decades after the life of Jesus by people far removed from the events. And since this is the case, why was the empty tomb and resurrection not quickly refuted by the Jews or even Paul himself when he was persecuting them, by simply producing the body? That would have nipped Christianity right in the bud.

And why would Matthew assert that the Jews of his own day held the belief that the disciples stole the body, unless the contemporary Jews actually believed the tomb had indeed been empty? That would have been the most obvious lie, because people would easily know if the “stolen body” story was circulating among the Jews as Matthew asserted.
 
You should also point out that the resurrection testimony handed down to Paul is only single-digit years old after the death of Jesus. In Paul’s letter to the Galatians, he says that he had been persecuting the Christians, and three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem and discussed with Peter for 15 days. Certainly within the timeframe of his persecution of the Christians, his three years after his conversion, and his meeting with Peter, he received or heard of the resurrection testimony that he recounts in 1 Corinthians. Therefore, the death, empty tomb, and resurrection of Jesus is a very early tradition, not a legend concocted decades after the life of Jesus by people far removed from the events. And since this is the case, why was the empty tomb and resurrection not quickly refuted by the Jews or even Paul himself when he was persecuting them, by simply producing the body? That would have nipped Christianity right in the bud.

And why would Matthew assert that the Jews of his own day held the belief that the disciples stole the body, unless the contemporary Jews actually believed the tomb had indeed been empty? That would have been the most obvious lie, because people would easily know if the “stolen body” story was circulating among the Jews as Matthew asserted.
True, the earliness of Paul’s testimony supports all 3 points, the empty tomb, appearances, and origin of Christian belief. I do especially like Matthew’s comment “this story has circulated among the Jews to the present day” on the disciples stealing the body since it shows that even they admitted the tomb was really empty.
 
  1. The discovery of the empty tomb in multiply attested in early, independent sources. The pre-marken passion source, Paul’s letter to Corinthians mentions it, Matthew is an independent source since he includes the guard at the tomb, which is not in Mark.
It is well established that the 3 synoptic gospels are not independent. Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source. Anyway, the facthat sveral newspapers publish different articles base on one report does not entail multiple attestation.
Mark’s story is simple and lacks significant legendary development.
Sure, but Mark’s story also lack any post-mortem appearances by Jesus.
And even in modern times, legends do not take many years to develop.
The empty tomb was discovered by women. Women were not regarded as reliable witnesses, so their presence indicates the account is probably legit, since no one would invent women as discovers of the empty tomb.
The simplest explanation why one would invent women is precisely the fact that women were not regarded as reliable witnesses. “If your Jesus’ grave was really empty, why haven’t we heard from it?” “Well, it was discovered by women who were first told not to speak about it”
The earliest Jewish allegation that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body shows that the body was in fact missing from the tomb. The only reason to put that story there was if the Jews were really claiming that Jesus’s followers stole his body,
Christian: “Jesus has risen his grave was empty”
Jew:“Don’t be silly, dead people don’t rise. Even if his grave was empty, who knows, maybe his disciples stole his body”
Christian:“There were guard at the tomb”
  1. The disciples could never have preached the resurrection unless the tomb were really empty. No one would have believed them, it would have been absurd.
So, this entails that all the people who believed the disciple’s stories went to visit the tomb to make sure it was empty?
Now, if I were the Roman centurion or part of the Jewish sanhedrin, I would just roll the stone back in its place and send all bystanders away.
Apart from the body being stolen , it is also very well possible that the Romans changed their minds and threw Jesus’ body in some anonymous grave.
  1. “The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances which is quoted by Paul in I Cor. 15. 5-7 guarantees that such appearances occurred. .”
None of the gospels report these 500 anonymous witnesses. And how does just stating in a letter to people living as far away as Corinthia that 500 people have seen something prove anything? Do you think it would have been possible for a 1st century Corinthian “Joe Nickell” to interrogate these 500 ‘brethern’ whose name wasn’t even given?
The gospels account for multiples appearances, including to the women. They would not have been made up.
Why not, since the disciples wanted to spread their religion. So why not make up spectacular stories to convince people?
The appearances were physical. Paul in Corinthians implies this, Jesus invites Thomas to touch his side, If the appearances were not physical, they’d say they saw his ghost.
That’s what Paul says, despite the fact that he himself never met the risen Christ in that way.
The disciples came to believe, in spite of every reason not to, that Jesus was really raised from the death
.
The ancient world always used the work “Resurrection” to mean a physical bodily resurrection.

In spite of every reason not to? They saw Lazarus being bodily resurrected, and they still had no reason to believe this was possible?
Jesus was not the first person to resurrect.
The sole exception was the Jews, who came to believe …the end of time.
And the Egyptians, who tried to preserve their Pharao’s body in order for him to resurrect.
  1. Yet Christians claimed that God raised Jesus, ahead of time, that this man was the messiah, and the resurrection was something to which they could contribute in the present life. …Rather there was virtually unanimous agreement on what it meant.
  2. Beliefs in life after death tend to be very conservative For Christians to 1). show such changes and 2). agree almost completely, this demands explanation.
Some people, according to the gospels, thought that Jesus was one of the phrophets that had risen from the dead, so it is very hard to deny that at least some jews already believed in a bodily resurrection.
An there wasn’t ‘virtually unanimous agreement about what it meant.’ A big part of Pauls letter to the Corinthians is an attempt to counter different beliefs about what it meant.
The most probable explanation of these three facts is that Jesus really did rise from the dead leaving behind an empty tomb. So the evidence obligates us to conclude that it is historically probable that Jesus rose from the dead.
Only if one already believes this is possible. “The disciples stiole his body and made up some stories” is a far better explanation.
none of these arguments assume the Bible was written early or that it was written by the first generation. I only claim that it is sufficient, when treated as a normal historical source, to establish the facts listed above, as most scholars agree.
But that’s the crux: the Bible isn’t a normal historical source. It is a source from people who had a definite agenda: spreading what they believed was the word of God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top