The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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GaryTaylor said:
Big issue. Another one that took me decades to actually swallow. Obedience:D
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Same big issue…did you swallow error and are you therefore obedient to a leadership which is no more infallible than the Pharisees?
 
beehumble said:
  1. Actually in the typological sense, it is there.
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with that type of “typology” almost anything could be read between the lines…including all the Mormon claims
  1. Not everything is in the New Testament.
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this bald assertion needs to be proven…what evidence do you have that the apostles taught anything of significance that it not included in the OT and the NT?
The New Testament did not exist first; the Church existed first, without the New Testament.
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the truth existed first…the NT represents a reduction of the truth to writing…the fact that the order is truth/teaching => church => NT does not establish that the church possesses extrabiblical truth/teaching
For one thing, without the New Testament a Catholic still retains the Mass and the seven Sacraments and the priest-leaders…
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and that is part of the problem…the early church didn’t have priests…except for the believers that served in the Temple.
He taught them the Gospel and the sacraments and other duties,…
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“sacraments”…now there is a word that Christ didn’t use.
The Church came first, then the New Testament, and not everything was written down in the New Testament because there was no need to write it all down - …
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some proof? claiming that if something was believed in the 3rd century, then it must have been taught by the apostles doesn’t do it…even if you want to claim that the teaching “deepened” over that time period
God bless you.
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and you
 
Radical said:
Same big issue…did you swallow error and are you therefore obedient to a leadership which is no more infallible than the Pharisees?
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I don’t see error, I see extreme theology/philosophy that makes me think. What I don’t know for sure. I error in favor of the church’s and always, compare with the other Apostolic Churchs etc.

These guys been out here fighting evil for 2000 years.
 
GaryTaylor said:
These guys been out here fighting evil for 2000 years.
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if you looked at the history of the church w/o rose coloured glasses on, then you would see that these guys were also the cause of evil far too often…some error in their behavior and some error in their teachings. would seem to be the obvious and consistent expectation
 
Radical said:
if you looked at the history of the church w/o rose coloured glasses on, then you would see that these guys were also the cause of evil far too often…some error in their behavior and some error in their teachings. would seem to be the obvious and consistent expectation
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If you look at the bloodline of Jesus you see sinners and Saints. A Zig Zag through time, history, temporal rulers, and a lack of communication. But theres many truths which weave through all this in History with the Apostles Churchs. Mary is without doubt one.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Oh boy. now we have to “actually” pay attention now? 😉
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First of all. I am in no way anti Catholic. Second of all… Most of my huge extended Irish Catholic family … Is Irish Catholic…😉 … With roots that go all the way back to Brian Boru … The last great King of Ireland!
I have lived in the culture since birth. I know the theology surrounding The Blessed Mother like I know my blessed Sainted mother’s name.
The quotes are from Popes. Not from Anti Catholics. Changing the focus and attitude serves no purpose.

… and I posted the quotes in order to show how strongly Catholic leadership endorse Mary as the focus of all grace and salvation and how one or two words (grace and blessed) can be taken from the Bible and used to establish an entirely new direction as to where people focus their prayers for salvation and grace.
 
stewstew03 said:
Neither does taking quotes out of context.
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The context of all that I posted is focused on the fact (in all of the quotes… including the one that was expanded to include more of what that Pope said) …that Catholic leadership has shown that they endorse Mary as the focus of all grace and salvation.
…and to show how one or two words (grace and blessed) can be taken from the Bible and used to establish an entirely new direction as to where people focus their prayers for salvation and grace.
 
Radical said:
Same big issue…did you swallow error and are you therefore obedient to a leadership which is no more infallible than the Pharisees?
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Radical, we are not obedient because an entity is infallible. That is simply a bonus that we have the assurance of infallibility.

We are obedient because Christ commanded we be obedient.

[BIBLEDRB] Hebrews 13:17[/BIBLEDRB] and [BIBLEDRB]Matthew 23:1-3[/BIBLEDRB]

And if this Church is not infallible, how is it that you trust her judgement in discerning for you that Hebrews is theopneustos but the Shepherd of Hermas is not?

Do you think the Church erred in this judgement?

And if you don’t give tacit obedience to the Church on this issue, on what do you base your acceptance that Hebrews is inspired?
 
Radical said:
so the pedigree is that it is an earlier (rather than a later) addition to the original deposit of faith?

I don’t care if it was the first or the last thing to be added…what is important is that it was an addition (and I have no reason to believe that it was an inspired addition). As to your other points, I only care if those things were believed/done at the start…and if so, then they should be restored
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The view of Mary as the ark of the new covenant is a typological interpretation that has an ancient, pre-Nicene basis in the church fathers (which is the question that you asked. After all. If you weren’t interested in when it appeared in church history by the fathers, then why ask about them?). It is not a dogma in Roman Catholic theology, but rather, an interpretation that does not conflict with the gospel nor the deposit of the faith.
 
beehumble said:
Not everything is in the New Testament
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Radical said:
this bald assertion needs to be proven…what evidence do you have that the apostles taught anything of significance that it not included in the OT and the NT?
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This challenge is quite easy, Radical. The Table of Contents is not in the New Testament.

That was given to you courtesy of the Catholic Church.

Unless you can provide us with the apostle who wrote this list? :hmmm:
 
1voice said:
The context of all that I posted is focused on the fact (in all of the quotes… including the one that was expanded to include more of what that Pope said) …that Catholic leadership has shown that they endorse Mary as the focus of all grace and salvation.
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No, 1voice. Those quotes do not show that Mary is the focus of all grace and salvation.

She is only the source of grace and salvation in the same sense that Paul and Peter and the apostles claim to be the source of grace and salvation.

And if you have no problem with Paul stating that HE saves you, then you ought not have any problem with what our popes have said.
 
IggyAntiochus said:
The view of Mary as the ark of the new covenant is a typological interpretation that has an ancient, pre-Nicene basis in the church fathers (which is the question that you asked. After all. If you weren’t interested in when it appeared in church history by the fathers, then why ask about them?). It is not a dogma in Roman Catholic theology, but rather, an interpretation that does not conflict with the gospel nor the deposit of the faith.
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I would respectfully argue that there is a serious and demonstrable conflict with the gospel clearly and simply presented in the Bible when the concept of Mary as Ark leads to statements like the following …

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”
…Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi
 
1voice said:
The context of all that I posted is focused on the fact (in all of the quotes… including the one that was expanded to include more of what that Pope said) …that Catholic leadership has shown that they endorse Mary as the focus of all grace and salvation.
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In fact, I just did a search and could not find the word “focus” in any of those quotes, as they apply to Mary.

Unless you can do so, I must ask you to rescind your comment that the Catholic leadership has shown that they endorse Mary, and not Christ, as the focus of all graces and salvation.
 
1voice said:
“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”
…Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi
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Amen!

There *is *no one who abounds in the knowledge of God except through Mary.

Unless you believe that Christ was incarnated through another means?
 
1voice said:
I would respectfully argue that there is a serious and demonstrable conflict with the gospel clearly and simply presented in the Bible when the concept of Mary as Ark leads to statements like the following …

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”
…Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi
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And how is the above quote germane to the view of Mary as an antitype of the ark of the covenant? Is John the Baptist being an antitype of the prophet Elijah result in such prayers being offered to John the Baptist?
 
PRmerger said:
In fact, I just did a search and could not find the word “focus” in any of those quotes, as they apply to Mary.

Unless you can do so, I must ask you to rescind your comment that the Catholic leadership has shown that they endorse Mary, and not Christ, as the focus of all graces and salvation.
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“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”
…Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi
 
1voice said:
“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”
…Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi
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Amen!

But where does it say that Mary is the focus of all grace and salvation?

Again, I ask you to rescind your comment that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary, not Christ, is the focus of all grace and salvation.

Also, could you please respond if you really find it offensive to be called fallible?
 
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