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1voice
Guest
“God has committed to the Blessed Virgin Mary the treasury of all good things in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation.” …
Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum
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Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
Just like Paul says that he gives grace.
And! He says that HE saves.
I notice you keep ignoring this argument I keep proferring.
Are you as indignant with Paul saying that he gives grace? And that he saves?
Why not?
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1voice
Guest
Originally Posted by 1voice
“God has committed to the Blessed Virgin Mary the treasury of all good things in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation.” …
Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum
“God has committed to the Blessed Virgin Mary the treasury of all good things in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation.” …
Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum
So, no one can obtain the salvation provided by God and his Son Jesus or receive God’s grace except through Mary?
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PRmerger
Guest
As I asked earlier: did the Incarnation occur through someone else besides Mary?
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1voice
Guest
Well
“brother,
I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.
… But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”
Philippians 3:14
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1voice
Guest
You dont see the difference? … between Jesus being born to Mary … and praying to Mary:
“O Holy Mother of God; to thee we lift our prayers for thou, powerful and merciful, art the Mediatrix of our salvation.” Leo XIII: Encycl., Jucunda semper
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Radical
Guest
did you read what you quoted from me? It was:
…what evidence do you have that the apostles taught anything of significance that it not included in the OT and the NT?
Do you think that the apostles passed on a oral tradition regarding the table of contents for the NT? I don’t, but if that is your evidence of an extrabiblical apostolic teaching…then thanks for clarifying what you have.
mine wasn’t…the table of contents in my Bible (for the NT) matches the list that the early Church produced long before so many “Catholic” doctrines were added to the rule of faith.
well, from your answer it would seem that you are the one that thinks some apostle produced the list…so that the list would constitute something that the apostles taught (of significance) that it not included in the OT and the NTUnless you can provide us with the apostle who wrote this list?
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PRmerger
Guest
Not sure what this means.Well
“brother,
I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.
… But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”
Philippians 3:14
I’m going to simply assume, 1voice, that you are not claiming to be infallible, and thus when I assert that you agree with Catholics when they agree with your own fallible, personal interpretation of Scripture that you would agree.
And if you’re fallible, (which isn’t an offensive comment, yes? I think that’s what the Scripture verse you’re citing is trying to say?) why should anyone follow your prone-to-error interpretation?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed Mary *is *the Mediatrix of our salvation. Jesus came through her.
There is no way around that, if you are a believer in the Incarnation.
Just like there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, for it is ONLY through the Catholic Church that you have been able to hear the Good News. The Church has been the mediatrix of the Gospel for 2000 years.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, of course. That’s how the canon of the NT developed–through Sacred Tradition.
You don’t believe that the canon of Scripture is part of the extrabiblical apostolic teaching? Okay.
Then who gave it to you?
You know that the Shepherd of Hermas is NOT inspired…HOW?
You know that Hebrews IS inspired…HOW?
You have to have some better reason than this, A) “I know it’s in the Bible because it’s inspired” or B) “I know it’s inspired because it’s in the Bible.”
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PRmerger
Guest
'kay.
So you’re trusting in the decision of some men (we’ll just say that it’s non-Catholic men for the sake of argument) to create the table of contents.
Then that’s trusting in an extra-biblical source. NOT sola scriptura.
And, unless you believe these men erred, you’re going to have to believe that they were given the charism of INFALLIBILITY, yes? At least on this particular issue: discerning the canon of Scripture.
Yes–you do know that Catholics consider our bishops apostles, right?
Please see here.
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mark_a
Guest
A Catholic dogma is a belief that cannot be denied by the Catholic faithful. We need not necessarily understand it perfectly or be able to defend it by proof-texting verses to objectors.
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Radical
Guest
somebody other than the apostles
I have no reason to believe that it is…but if someone could produce valid reasons for it to be reclassified as scripture, then I would be open to consider that reclassification.
I don’t KNOW that it is…but I have FAITH that it is. Again, if someone could produce valid reasons for it to be reclassified as non-scripture (in whole or in part), then I would be open to consider that reclassification.
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Radical
Guest
yep…though their decision can be revisited
it is extrabiblical…but like so many here, it seems that you do not understand how sola scriptura works
I think Einstein got E = mc^2 correct, but that doesn’t mean that he had the charism of INFALLIBILITY on the issue of the relation of energy to mass
not even that…if more ancient manuscripts were found that had three letters (of Paul) to the Corinthians, I might end up believing that another epistle should be added to the NT
successors of the apostles, right?..not actual apostles
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Radical
Guest
understood
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PRmerger
Guest
This is indeed a pickle, isn’t it? As there is no central authority that speaks for the thousands of denominations who claim the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, there isn’t really any way for us Catholics to know exactly what it is that your particular church and pastor means when he speaks of it, right?
So you’ll have to forgive us if we’re not exactly sure what your particular denomination espouses when you speak of SS.
Conversely, if you’re not sure what my particular Church espouses, you can look right here for the sure norm for our Faith.
Where can I go for your pastor’s theological views?
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Miriam1947
Guest
Thanks for posting this. I post it all over the place… Even when anti-Catholics (on some websites) are out in force.
It is one of my favorites. I first saw it at www.conversiondiary.com from a former atheist who became Catholic.
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PRmerger
Guest
That’s a very nebulous answer for such an important concept.
It would appear that you’re not quite sure how you know that Hebrews is inspired…except that “somebody” told you?
Really? You base the Word of God on “somebody”, some nebulous creature’s decision?
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PRmerger
Guest
Excellent.
And what criteria would you use to decide if it’s theopneustos?
This I am very, very interested in hearing. If you answer nothing else I ask that you address this question.
How would you decide if an ancient Christian text is to be re-classified as Scripture, Radical?
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.
Except if a group of men were able to repeat this correct judgement over and over and over again would it then confirm that they were given the charism of INFALLIBILITY? And these were different men each time, would this then cause you to consider that they, perhaps, were only able to do this because they were guided by the Holy Spirit?
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