I enjoyed what you wrote but it didn’t answer my question. Could Hippolytus not be referring to Jesus as that Ark of Noah? This ark was compared to baptism. Why is it assumed that it was the Ark of the Covenant. It makes more sense to me that it was Noah’s Ark. As someone pointed out, God does not carry God. God does save as Noah’s Ark did.
Sure. Just like Jesus is referred to as the foundation stone, the Apostles, too, are referred to as foundation stones.
I just wanted to say that I now know your correct name. Steward.
I don’t think this is quite accurate. They were of the same flesh in that Mary carried Jesus within her and His cells mixed with her cells as her cells mixed with His. But that does not mean they are the same - in any sense. If they were, we would worship Mary and call Mary “Jesus.” Mary is the mother of Jesus. Even though she shares physical and spiritual characteristics with him she is still a separate human being with her own soul. Her soul is not Jesus’ soul - it belongs to Mary alone.
The original Ark also carried the sceptre of the high priest. The contents of the Ark make up the contents of the Ark - not the Ark. If Jesus is the Ark why even refer to the Ark and the contents of the Ark? If Jesus is the Ark we could throw out the whole concept of the Ark of the Covenant as Jesus defines it. Why would Jesus need an Ark? Why would Jesus need a vessel? He did not carry the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments and He didn’t carry manna around with Him (as far as I know) and He didn’t carry the sceptre of the high priest. Jesus *was and is *the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest. There is no reason to carry the items around as they are all Jesus. So why even have an Ark of the New Covenant? The emphasis should really be placed on the contents of the Ark - Jesus, who is God; not the Ark itself - Mary, who is a mere human being.
Well, he could be wrong even if he’s offering another POV. What he is offering is an opinion, a concept, a theory. He could very well be wrong as he is not omniscient.
I believe your right as to Noahs Ark. Hippolytus also suggested the movement of the Ark in the water made the sign of the cross in its travels, door on the Ark facing the East etc. He was pretty much into this theory.
When *Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark *was released I assumed “Ark” was referring to Noah’s Ark. I had never heard of the Ark of the Covenant. Fortunately I was put straight before I saw the movie (excellent movie, BTW).
Oh, my apologies for the misunderstanding
.Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.—1 Samuel 16:13.Mary was (and is) also without sin - which is supported by the phrase “But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin (Mary)…” It also seems to imply that the purest gold refers to the Word of God.Oh, my apologies for the misunderstanding
It seems that the original quote was from a source that paraphrased the actual quote. Here is the full text from newadvent.org:
“And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: “My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness.” But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin (Mary) and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold.” - From the Commentary by the Holy Bishop and Martyr Hippolytus, on “The Lord is My Shepherd.”
The outer portion was not defiled while the inner portions were undefiled? This means that the outer portion was not defiled and the inner portions were not defiled, doesn’t it? “Undefiled” and “not defiled” mean the same thing. You have used the word “while” which indicates a difference. Yet there is no difference. Do you want to re-word this or am I being my normal addle-headed self who can’t understand plain English? Also, please note that above I stated that the phrase indicated seems to imply that the purest gold referred to the Word of God - not Mary.
Hmmm…New Advent. Wow. Would you please provide a title for the part you have quoted? The link leads to a very long page. I’m honestly trying my best here but I’m sick today and quite groggy from meds. But as I am that way most of the time I can only ask for you to bear with me and to help me if you will (and if my language appears uncharitable I am very sorry. That is not my intent. I’m having a hard time using language today.
)Thank you for posting this. It has been discussed recently and I pointed out that the chapter break was put in by the Church. When John penned Revelation there were no chapters. It was a document. So it’s safe to ignore the chapter breaks. And this makes it clear, to me at least, that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant.
I was expounding on the thought that adrift posted, in order to demonstrate how I came to my concluding answer…I wanted to provide a thorough response to make sure I wasn’t mistaken. I am not arguing that Mary sinned, but simply answering the question: “Could Hippolytus have been talking about Noah’s ark?”…the concluding answer is no, that it is not possible.
Perhaps the meds just have you groggy or maybe it’s my headache today making me a little less clear
, but to clarify: The Ark of the Covenant was made of acacia-wood overlaid with pure gold, and the entire Ark was undefiled. I was simply demonstrating that it doesn’t make sense to say that the outer (pure gold) of the Ark is defiled while the inner part (the wood) is undefiled. This seems to be what Hippolytus is conveying in order to help us understand that the Virgin Mary must have been without sin. In other words: like the Ark of the Covenant, Mary and Jesus, the whole Ark of the New Covenant are undefiled (without sin), because the outer part cannot be defiled/sinful (Mary) while the inner part is undefiled/without sin (Jesus).There is no way to do so since the page has no named anchors, but you can easily highlight the first few words of the quote by holding down CTRL and tapping “C” on your keyboard. Then go to the link, hold down CTRL and tap “F” on your keyboard. Then, make sure the cursor is in the search box, hold down CTRL and tap “V” to paste the text (you can also right click the mouse in windows to pull up a menu that contains copy/paste commands). Tap Enter on the keyboard and it should jump to and highlight the portion of text I found.
Yes, you are correct, but nevertheless, it is part of Catholic Baptism, though it is not a requirement for a valid Baptism. If a person is Baptized outside of the Catholic church and then is Confirmed in the Catholic Church, they are anointed with oil.
Yes, it was actually discussed, but it doesn’t hurt to repeat it in such a long thread for people who might have missed it.
Oh yes, they definitely have made me groggy!
I’m sorry you have a headache; that’s never fun.
OK, I agree with you here.making me a little less clear
The page has titles and subtitles. I don’t understand your instructions and my brain is saying “NO!! STOP!!” and it’s about ready to go into overload and short out. If you can, please give me a title near the area to which you found the quote. I can’t find it. But I’ve found part on the psalms and about how Adam and Eve didn’t really hear God but felt a breeze instead and about a hundred other topics (he was a prolific writer, wasn’t he?) Unfortunately my computer will not be able to accomplish what you have written because the cursor jumps all over the place and I have a mini-scroll which is the worst idea I have ever run into re computers. It just is a piece of junk. But I will try. If it’s near the Psalms part I might be able to find it there.
I have gone through the page twice and cannot find it. This is all I have found:
I’d just like to add, LittleSoldier, that it is difficult to prove from a fragment of larger document that Hippolytus was actually trying to speak directly about Mary, since the whole writing is apparently not available. However, we can determine from what is available that he was apparently talking about her sinless nature in an indirect way, by pointing out that Jesus was sinless and then comparing Jesus to the wood of the Ark of the Covenant.
I just wanted to say that I now know your correct name. Steward.
I found it. I just went to the comments about Psalms 22 and 23, which you mentioned. Weird that a google search didn’t pull it up.
Like I said, I’ll roll with it…
He’s gone now, anyway.Oh I understand…scroll down past all the Genesis stuff and then go down to the section titled “On the Psalms”, and then skip on down to Psalm 22 and 23, directly beneath that you will find ‘From the Commentary by the Holy Bishop and Martyr Hippolytus, on “The Lord is My Shepherd.”’
No that is not it, but I didn’t see that. And I agree, it is ambiguous.
I understand completely. I hope and pray you get better. Perhaps a good nights rest for the both of us and we can better communicate tomorrow
Maybe he is, I’m not sure, because there just isn’t enough of his writing on the subject available to say he was absolutely right-- it’s all just fragments. But he wasn’t and isn’t the only person that seems to think of Mary (and Jesus) as being the Ark of the New Covenant.
In the parable of the rich man in Luke 16.19-28, in which Lazarus was taken to the ‘Bosom of Abraham’, we learn from Jesus that there was a place of comfort and peace, but it was not heaven, because it was in the same vicinity as the place of torment (where the rich man went). Peter teaches us that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18-22, ), for he was reckoned among the dead (Romans 4:24, see also Psalm 88:4), and so the thief was brought into the place of paradise, not into a place of torment, because he believed in the Lord. It is presumed then that the thief probably also went up to heaven to be with the Lord, along with all the other faithful people who had went up after the Lord ascended into heaven.