The armed forces

[JimG]

Here is some (name removed by moderator)ut from Catholic Chaplains in the military:
catholicmil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=34%3Achaplain-testimonies&layout=blog&Itemid=70&limitstart=5

 

[diggerdomer]

I was considering joining the armed forces. Is it possible to remain a good and faithful Catholic throughout all of it? I’m concerned about a couple of things…

I’m new to both the idea of the military and being catholic, so please forgive me for my complete ignorance on this matter.

f I had to lead, would it be morally ok for me to yell and scream at others like I see them do? Would it contradict the command to be meek, gentle, etc.? If so, how could I avoid it?

I’m also a little concerned about the whole possibility of having to kill n such… but that IS morally justified in war, right?

Any other (name removed by moderator)ut on the idea would be greatly appreciated.

I meant to add one other thought to what I previously posted. Another thing to think about is how important Sunday worship and Mass are to you as a Catholic. The military tries very hard to allow for service members to worship according to their faith tradition, but there are no guarantees, and worship services are of course secondary to the mission. Depending on what specific service and duty you might be interested in, this could be a huge issue (e.g. not having regular access to Mass, other Sacraments, priest, etc.).

 

[forever_always]

I was considering joining the armed forces. Is it possible to remain a good and faithful Catholic throughout all of it? I’m concerned about a couple of things…

I’m new to both the idea of the military and being catholic, so please forgive me for my complete ignorance on this matter.

f I had to lead, would it be morally ok for me to yell and scream at others like I see them do? Would it contradict the command to be meek, gentle, etc.? If so, how could I avoid it?

I’m also a little concerned about the whole possibility of having to kill n such… but that IS morally justified in war, right?

Any other (name removed by moderator)ut on the idea would be greatly appreciated.

Of course! Nothing wrong with joining the military and still being a good Catholic. =) There are many priests in the military… in fact, my dad is retired USAF, so I sometimes (when i don’t go to mass with my fiance) will go with my family to the base for mass. There are lots of religious in the military.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

The “yelling and screaming” is what we call “overhead correction” and “tactful pressure”. It’s done for training purposes and isn’t done out of wrath or hate but because it is a necessary part of military training.

Now if you become a DI on the other hand, you have to pretty much already be pure evil begin with so the yelling and screaming wont matter.

*howls with laughter

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Everyone has a duty to be a good citizen, and to contribute to the common good.

The yelling and screaming has to be taken with a grain of salt. Basic military training doesnt always permit the niceties of social communication. However, it is very tame these days compared to when I joined in 1968.

 

[Holly3278]

I think it would be a great idea for you to join the Armed Forces! They help to prepare you for future jobs and you get to travel a lot. However, I would personally join only in a non-combative position because I wouldn’t want to be fighting against other people in an unjust war such as the war in Iraq.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Hello,

I am a non-comissioned officer in the Army Reserves who did a tour in Iraq. The yelling and screaming part of it is honestly a rarity. I have only had to do it a few times. Most of those times were when I was young in leadership and did not know how to lead any other way. Now that I have learned more leadership skills I have found different ways to approach soldiers that have issues. Granted sometimes I need to lay down the law but even with a raised voice I can still do it without personal insult or swearing.

I also find that my position of authority gives me a chance to stand up for others moral values. One day a male and a female were having a conversation in the smoking area that I overheard. He had stated that every woman had her price. Granted I knew that he didn’t mean anything by it and was speaking philosophically but I could see the female was uncomfortable. I simply interjected to the male that I had a price: My fiance’s body, mind, and soul. I got two big smiles. The point was made and shared without alienation.

I have also been able to talk to our Chaplain who is Baptist. She does a great Sunday service for us with a very good message and I do have the upmost respect for her. however, on drill weekends I often cannot make mass to get Eucharist. I approached her and she understood this as she is open-minded to other faiths as all military chaplains should be and knew it was something she could not provide. She and I are working together on getting a Eucharistic Minister to come in and supply Eucharist in addition to the service she provides.

I hope this has helped. Please feel free to PM me if you need.

God bless, and keep your HEAD DOWN!!!

Bless you!!!

 

[diggerdomer]

I think it would be a great idea for you to join the Armed Forces! They help to prepare you for future jobs and you get to travel a lot. However, I would personally join only in a non-combative position because I wouldn’t want to be fighting against other people in an unjust war such as the war in Iraq.

I’m concerned about this advice.

Are we saying it’s ok to be in the military, when the military is involved in an unjust war, as long as you’re not the one immediately and physically pulling the trigger??

Yikes. I couldn’t accept that, myself.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Are we saying it’s ok to be in the military, when the military is involved in an unjust war, as long as you’re not the one immediately and physically pulling the trigger??

One is of course free (as long as there is not a national draft) to not join the military due to a particular ongoing conflict. However, what if there is another terrorist attack on our country? What then?

As long as humans are incharge of national policy, there is the possibility of some conflicts not meeting the “just war” criteria. Even in these conflicts, one can serve honorably and as a Christian.

 

[diggerdomer]

One is of course free (as long as there is not a national draft) to not join the military due to a particular ongoing conflict. However, what if there is another terrorist attack on our country? What then?

As long as humans are incharge of national policy, there is the possibility of some conflicts not meeting the “just war” criteria. Even in these conflicts, one can serve honorably and as a Christian.

Are you saying that Christians can support an unjust war?

 

[JimG]

Are you saying that Christians can support an unjust war?

An unjust war is a matter of opinion. A member of the military is not permitted in his role as a military member to decide which wars he will fight and which he won’t.

In much the same way, if I work for a corporation, unless it’s my job to make corporate policy, I can’t decide which corporate policies I will follow and which ones I won’t.

I can’t imagine making a list of every war in which the U.S. has participated and then having every soldier, airman, marine, and sailor deciding for himself which one of these meets just war criteria and which one doesn’t.

And even if one did such a thing, an individual may certainly be mistaken in his judgment.

Catholics have served honorably in the military and fought in every American war since the nation’s founding.

 

[diggerdomer]

An unjust war is a matter of opinion.

Not quite. The Catholic Church has very explicit, clear, and detailed criteria upon which to base the judgment of whether a specific war is just or not.

A member of the military is not permitted in his role as a military member to decide which wars he will fight and which he won’t.

True. And this is the real question–should a Catholic cede his/her right to follow his/her conscience to the military?

In much the same way, if I work for a corporation, unless it’s my job to make corporate policy, I can’t decide which corporate policies I will follow and which ones I won’t.

Actually, you can decide. And you have to. If you think that following a corporate policy violates your Catholic faith, you (and only you) have a choice to make. Which will you follow in that circumstance?

I can’t imagine making a list of every war in which the U.S. has participated and then having every soldier, airman, marine, and sailor deciding for himself which one of these meets just war criteria and which one doesn’t.

And even if one did such a thing, an individual may certainly be mistaken in his judgment.

I can’t imagine that either. I don’t see the value in making such a list.

But–any Catholic in the military (actually, every Catholic period) does have the obligation to properly form their conscience and decide how they will live their faith based on that conscience. If a Catholic is in the military when an unjust war is initiated by the U.S. that is a problem. THe Church should of course teach in such a circumstance, but it’s still and always up to each individual Catholic to act upon their properly formed conscience.

Catholics have served honorably in the military and fought in every American war since the nation’s founding.

Yes. Of course.

That does not mean that every such war was just, and therefore morally acceptable by Catholic teaching.

 

[LRThunder]

Not quite. The Catholic Church has very explicit, clear, and detailed criteria upon which to base the judgment of whether a specific war is just or not.

True. And this is the real question–should a Catholic cede his/her right to follow his/her conscience to the military?

Actually, you can decide. And you have to. If you think that following a corporate policy violates your Catholic faith, you (and only you) have a choice to make. Which will you follow in that circumstance?

I can’t imagine that either. I don’t see the value in making such a list.

But–any Catholic in the military (actually, every Catholic period) does have the obligation to properly form their conscience and decide how they will live their faith based on that conscience. If a Catholic is in the military when an unjust war is initiated by the U.S. that is a problem. THe Church should of course teach in such a circumstance, but it’s still and always up to each individual Catholic to act upon their properly formed conscience.

Yes. Of course.

That does not mean that every such war was just, and therefore morally acceptable by Catholic teaching.

The problem, as JimG, stated was that a soldier can’t pick and choose what wars he or she thinks is a just war. Right now, there is no draft, so joining the armed forces is voluntary, and thus they know the risks when they enlist.

 

[JimG]

The military also has many Catholic Chaplains. If a war were absolutely unjust, I would look to the military chaplains to help form the conscience of those in their charge.

But even then, and even using Church guidlines, the determination of a just war is a matter of prudential judgment. The Church would almost never be in a position to be able to make a definite judgment as to any particular war as it can with regard to the morality of abortion.

The reason I mentioned making a list of every war is this. People tend to think only of the most recent war, and make decisions as if it existed in a vacuum. I wonder if those making prudential judgements that the Iraq war is unjust would upon consideration make the same judgment about every war in American and possibly all of, history. That would essentially turn Catholics into pacifists, which we are not.

 

[phoage]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, Greetings:

DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert (or even especially knowledgeable) on Catholic doctrine. I am also a former infantryman.

Having said that, (and this may stray slightly off topic) the previous points are well taken but!

There are two kingdoms; the one we are in now and that of our Father. This one is temporary and that one is eternal. A service member might find himself obligated to fight an unjust war. If he truly believes it unjust he can always refuse to fight, or even to continue serving.

In the modern military, this is referred to as mutiny. It may be called treason. The consequences, as you may imagine, can be somewhat extreme. However, if it is a truly an unjust war, participation is tantamount to murder on a vast scale with eternal consequences for the soul.

I know it sounds simplistic but there is an old Army maxim that applies: Mission, mission, mission. Is the mission to get through this life with as little trouble as possible, or is it to please God and earn his eternal reward. If the latter, then I believe the term for a person with such a choice id martyr, in fact if not in name.

 

[PJM]

=Youngone88;4408182]I was considering joining the armed forces. Is it possible to remain a good and faithful Catholic throughout all of it? I’m concerned about a couple of things…

I’m new to both the idea of the military and being catholic, so please forgive me for my complete ignorance on this matter.

f I had to lead, would it be morally ok for me to yell and scream at others like I see them do? Would it contradict the command to be meek, gentle, etc.? If so, how could I avoid it?

I’m also a little concerned about the whole possibility of having to kill n such… but that IS morally justified in war, right?

Any other (name removed by moderator)ut on the idea would be greatly appreciated.

Serving ones national Interest in the Us Military is of itself a very good thing.

However, one is very likely to find it difficut to fullfil one Catholic Obligatins for Mass. Many assignments will not have a priest, to Catholic Church on Base or in the location of many assignments.

These might be “excused” morally, depending on the conditions and effort expended.

The Catholic Catecheism:
"2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power,** governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”**

This is a personal decission. Pray and do what YOU understand to be right.

God bless you.

 

[JimG]

I was in the Air Force four years and never missed Mass on Sunday. Even if I tried to skip, one of my friends would remind me. Most bases and military posts have a base or a post chapel. For Catholics it most often serves as the local parish. It’s not as if the entire military is serving on a combat mission at once.

 

[diggerdomer]

The military also has many Catholic Chaplains. If a war were absolutely unjust, I would look to the military chaplains to help form the conscience of those in their charge.

But even then, and even using Church guidlines, the determination of a just war is a matter of prudential judgment. The Church would almost never be in a position to be able to make a definite judgment as to any particular war as it can with regard to the morality of abortion.

The reason I mentioned making a list of every war is this. People tend to think only of the most recent war, and make decisions as if it existed in a vacuum. I wonder if those making prudential judgements that the Iraq war is unjust would upon consideration make the same judgment about every war in American and possibly all of, history. That would essentially turn Catholics into pacifists, which we are not.

Yes it’s a matter of prudential judgment, but there very well could be wars that the Church could and would say are unjust, according to Catholic teaching, period.

I’m honestly surprised the Church as a whole has not clearly stated that about the Iraq war, especially given the Pope’s statements. I don’t know of anyone who claims the war is just, I just wish the Church would be more clear on it as a whole, publicly and in unity. Oh well.

Anyway…we don’t need to look back, only ensure that anyone serving in the military today who is Catholic is aware of the moral issues involved.

And while I agree it can be fair to say Catholics are not pacifists, I think that might be misleading to some who might read this thread. Catholics can be pacifists. Being a pacifist is entirely acceptable to the Catholic faith. Not required, of course, but completely faithful. Rejecting pacifism, though, would not be; if someone were to do that.

 

[JimG]

Obviously if an individual Catholic is a total pacifist, he should not joint the military, as he would be unable to intend to keep his oath of office.

From the standpoint of the Selective Service System, should the draft ever be reinstated, no Catholic could claim conscientous objector status solely on the basis of Church teaching. Conscientous objector status requires that one be unequivocally opposed to all war, not simply to unjust war. I recall reading this over rather carefully when I registered for the draft. I could not honestly state that I was opposed to all war, so did not claim CO status. Then I joined the USAF and prepard to fight World War III. The Cold War was a serious time, as JFK’s response to the Cuban missile crisis shows.

What bothers me is this: if JFK had the mindset of President Obama, would those missiles still be in Cuba today? Would the U.S. have lost the Cold War, instead of winning it?