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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
Ok, then are you out there pointing a gun at every person involved in abortion?
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LJN21
Guest
Strawman.Ok, then are you out there pointing a gun at every person involved in abortion?
Again the Church teaching on both these issues is pretty clear. I’m sorry your having such a hard time seeing the difference.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
Please show me where in the NT Jesus says you can pull the trigger on your enemy. I’m not telling you what I think. I’m telling you what Jesus taught and exemplified as written in Scripture which everyone seems to be ignoring, as well as giving you a Catholic example (Francis) of someone (among many Catholics) who are pacifists.Fortunately, as Catholics we don’t have to rely on what you think the Jesus says about War in the NT and can go disarm terrorist that threaten the lives of there own countrymen as well as our Nation.
And again and again: I said God has a purpose for war, but CLEARLY Christians may not pull the trigger.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
You can’t answer that can you? Of course not. If the terrorists oversees are a disease then so are the terrorists that kill unborn babies right here on your own soil. You can’t have it both ways.Strawman.
It is clear that the teaching makes provision for Christians killing which is totally against Christ.Again the Church teaching on both these issues is pretty clear. I’m sorry your having such a hard time seeing the difference.
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LJN21
Guest
You want to claim to be Catholic yet descent of Church teaching. Hows is it not totally against Christ to thumb your nose at the teaching of the Church he founded?You can’t answer that can you? Of course not. If the terrorists oversees are a disease then so are the terrorists that kill unborn babies right here on your own soil. You can’t have it both ways. It is clear that the teaching makes provision for Christians killing which is totally against Christ.
It would be just as wrong for me to go shoot up an abortion clinic as it would for me to travel to Iraq and start shooting terrorists. I’m not in the military I have no authority or jurisdiction to go to war with anyone. Abortionist have to be dealt with through the legal system where the authority to do so lies, just like terrorist have to be dealt with through the military, unless they show up at my door step and threaten my family then I have the right to defend my family and my self.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
Thanks for those links. Btw, I think you need to re-read that first one. I believe it supports my position.tektonics.org/lp/noswords.html
Please do not just blindly take verses from the Bible and start saying “here here look the Bible says this”, especially in english translations many words have different meanings in the hebrew and greek versions.
osjspm.org/the_challenge_of_peace_1.aspx
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LJN21
Guest
That is the most intellectually dishonest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. So God has a purpose for war. Christians are supposed to go forth and spread the Gospel convert all nations. Yet some how we’re supposed to let Non-christians do all the fighting for us? Wow… that’s something else.Please show me where in the NT Jesus says you can pull the trigger on your enemy. I’m not telling you what I think. I’m telling you what Jesus taught and exemplified as written in Scripture which everyone seems to be ignoring, as well as giving you a Catholic example (Francis) of someone (among many Catholics) who are pacifists.
And again and again: I said God has a purpose for war, but CLEARLY Christians may not pull the trigger.
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Brendan
Guest
And how about other Catholic examples, such as St. Joan of Arc and St. Louis IX, both of whom fought in wars. One fought a war to free Christian lands from an infidel invader, the other defending her homeland.Please show me where in the NT Jesus says you can pull the trigger on your enemy. I’m not telling you what I think. I’m telling you what Jesus taught and exemplified as written in Scripture which everyone seems to be ignoring, as well as giving you a Catholic example (Francis) of someone (among many Catholics) who are pacifists. .
Are they any less Saints because of that, or is their example any less Holy?
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
If I am required to believe that Christians can take a human life in order to be a Catholic, then I will leave the CC. I’ve no problem with that. This may just be the straw that broke the camel’s back. I just returned to the CC after a 3+ year of doubting its claims. I returned b/c I believed I had no right to judge the church using my own interpretation of Scripture as a rule of measure. It’s issues like this that have me seriously reconsidering if I made the right choice in returning. It is one of those *glaring inconsistencies *between Catholic teaching and Scripture. I think one has to be blind not to see it. The great deception (possibly) is believing that, although some Scriptures look VERY CLEAR, we cannot trust that clarity as being true unless the CC confirms it. In a case like this, you have to twist and twist Scripture - no, no, no… - actually, you have to *entirely ignore * Christ’s teachings and examples in the NT in order to justify this Catholic position. So, if the Catholic position is Christ’s teaching, then Jesus contradicts Himself with Scripture. Catholics better just throw out their Bibles b/c they don’t matter anymore. You have to give up common sense to agree with this one. No way.You want to claim to be Catholic yet descent of Church teaching. Hows is it not totally against Christ to thumb your nose at the teaching of the Church he founded?
K, well, the discussion here is about someone joining the military and possibly having to take a life.It would be just as wrong for me to go shoot up an abortion clinic as it would for me to travel to Iraq and start shooting terrorists. I’m not in the military
Well that is where we differ then my friend. I would not defend my family by killing another person. Neither did the first Christians. That is how the faith was witnessed to the world. Saints did not try to rescue other saints from persecution by killing the enemy.I have no authority or jurisdiction to go to war with anyone. Abortionist have to be dealt with through the legal system where the authority to do so lies, just like terrorist have to be dealt with through the military, unless they show up at my door step and threaten my family then I have the right to defend my family and my self.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
That’s the problem with the CC. It thinks it can spread the Gospel and convert all nations through force and threats. This has been the case in the past. Condoning Christians murdering is no different. We will never spread the Gospel that way.That is the most intellectually dishonest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. So God has a purpose for war. Christians are supposed to go forth and spread the Gospel convert all nations. Yet some how we’re supposed to let Non-christians do all the fighting for us? Wow… that’s something else.
Yes, God may use others to do the fighting that will allow the Gospel to be spread by Christians. I see no problem with this. I don’t know why you do.
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LJN21
Guest
What makes you think the first Christians didn’t defend themselves? Yes, a lot of them where martyred but that has NOTHING to do with self defence 1 man VS a mob isn’t going to work out so well. Show me one place where a Christian just stood there and let his wife and kids be Killed because of ONE unjust aggressor?K, well, the discussion here is about someone joining the military and possibly having to take a life. Well that is where we differ then my friend. I would not defend my family by killing another person. Neither did the first Christians. That is how the faith was witnessed to the world. Saints did not try to rescue other saints from persecution by killing the enemy.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
I’ll admit, I don’t agree with their canonization. Guess that makes me a dissenter. So be it.And how about other Catholic examples, such as St. Joan of Arc and St. Louis IX, both of whom fought in wars. One fought a war to free Christian lands from an infidel invader, the other defending her homeland.
Are they any less Saints because of that, or is their example any less Holy?
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Peccavi
Guest
"Everyone knows christianity is a pacifist religion, except Christians" Gandhi
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LJN21
Guest
No actually it doesn’t believe it can spread the Gospel with force and that’s not what I was talking about.That’s the problem with the CC. It thinks it can spread the Gospel and convert all nations through force and threats. This has been the case in the past. Condoning Christians murdering is no different. We will never spread the Gospel that way.
Yes, God may use others to do the fighting that will allow the Gospel to be spread by Christians. I see no problem with this. I don’t know why you do.
You said that God uses war, but Christians can’t fight. So when our homeland gets invaded by people that want to kill all of us just because of what we believe, we’re supposed to find mercenaries to fight for us? That’s problematic, if fighting a war is immoral then we can’t pay someone else to comment an immoral act for us. That’s as good as doing it ourselves. Are we just all roll over and die and let Christianity be wiped out?
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
I have an enormous book full of them. The Anabaptists did not resist. Some fled their persecutors, but none used resistance of any sort. Mothers and Fathers encouraged their youth not to resist either but to be strong in faith, choosing to love and forgive their persecutors over hatred and a desire for revenge. None of my Mennonite friends will defend their families even at the hands of one aggressor. I myself refuse to let go of this conviction as I see no reasonable argument to justify it. It is not a teaching of Christ.What makes you think the first Christians didn’t defend themselves? Yes, a lot of them where martyred but that has NOTHING to do with self defence 1 man VS a mob isn’t going to work out so well. Show me one place where a Christian just stood there and let his wife and kids be Killed because of ONE unjust aggressor?
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WatchfulPilgrim
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You have no faith in Christ’s promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail? Do you really think they won’t prevail b/c of something YOU will do with a gun to prevent it?No actually it doesn’t believe it can spread the Gospel with force and that’s not what I was talking about.
You said that God uses war, but Christians can’t fight. So when our homeland gets invaded by people that want to kill all of us just because of what we believe, we’re supposed to find mercenaries to fight for us? That’s problematic, if fighting a war is immoral then we can’t pay someone else to comment an immoral act for us. That’s as good as doing it ourselves. Are we just all roll over and die and let Christianity be wiped out?
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LJN21
Guest
Anabaptists and Menonites are not early Christians. Your going to have to do something better than a 16th century Christian sect.I have an enormous book full of them. The Anabaptists did not resist. Some fled their persecutors, but none used resistance of any sort. Mothers and Fathers encouraged their youth not to resist either but to be strong in faith, choosing to love and forgive their persecutors over hatred and a desire for revenge. None of my Mennonite friends will defend their families even at the hands of one aggressor. I myself refuse to let go of this conviction as I see no reasonable argument to justify it. It is not a teaching of Christ.
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LJN21
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I absolutely have faith that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church. I also believe we have an obligation to fight off people that want to eradicate us because we profess a belief different than their own. Prudence and Providence work together.You have no faith in Christ’s promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail? Do you really think they won’t prevail b/c of something YOU will do with a gun to prevent it?
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
Source: catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Love your enemy. Resist not evil. Whatever to do to the least…you do unto Me.
Jesus says it over and over and even gives His own life and death as an example, as do those who followed Him. Seriously, I have to THROW OUT my Bible if I am to submit my conscience to the CC about this.
:tsktsk:In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Love your enemy. Resist not evil. Whatever to do to the least…you do unto Me.
Jesus says it over and over and even gives His own life and death as an example, as do those who followed Him. Seriously, I have to THROW OUT my Bible if I am to submit my conscience to the CC about this.
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WatchfulPilgrim
Guest
Neither are today’s Catholics.Anabaptists and Menonites are not early Christians.
A 16th century sect that more closely resembles the Apostolic faith as recorded in the most authentic Christian teachings ever recorded - the Scriptures. I am to believe that a church that teaches and practices anti-Christ doctrine like this one is the “OTC”? No can do.Your going to have to do something better than a 16th century Christian sect.
Totally reconsidering my return to the CC… God did not leave us His Word that clearly says ABC but we can’t trust what we read as really being ABC b/c the CC says it really says XYZ… The CC wants me to believe that EVERYTHING I can deduce, through Scripture, about Christ and His teachings and life/death anda the church is not to be believed b/c I am not infallible. It wants me to look at a rose and call it a snake b/c it says it is. I’m sorry, but I won’t do that. And what a clever deception to have me believe that I can’t trust Scripture b/c it gave Scripture to the world. If you can believe God used the sole, supposed authority of the CC to preserve and compile it then you take that on faith. I’ll take it on faith that God preserved the Scriptures and how and at the hands of whom is of no consequence to me. He could use my 4 year old daughter to do so if He wishes.
It is an insult to humanity to say that God would give His Inspired Word to the world but that humanity can not draw truth from it w/out the aid of the CC. It’s an insult to God. His Word is available for all to read. If it is His will that it be available to be read by all, then it CAN NOT be so complicated to understand that a clear Bible teaching like that of Christian pacifism is wrong. To me, that is just as impossible to believe as if the CC insisted I believe that Scripture teaches Jesus is Satan. It is that impossible.
Excuses. The CC never fails to find a way to excuse itself for its contradictions to Scripture. And it’s very clever; very deceptive.
I think I made a grave error in returning to the Church w/out addressing the contradictory doctrines. I just shoved my convictions away b/c I believe the supposed authority.
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