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Paul3144
Guest
Inspired by the “Ask a Lutheran” thread, I wanted to provide a place for people to ask questions about the Baptist tradition, our practices and church services, etc.
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GeorgeSword
Guest
What justification do Baptists give (this is coming from a former Baptist, by the way) for the use of (generally) leavened bread and grape juice for Communion?
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NewCatholic1207
Guest
Do you subscribe to the “Trail of Blood” or find Foxe’s Book of Martyrs at all credible?
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Tietjen
Guest
I am curious about several things…
- What is the Southern Baptists position on predestination as it refers to salvation?
- Can a person loose his/her salvation after “being saved?”
- If the Baptist Church wasn’t founded until 1609 (and the Southern Baptist Church much later than that), by what authority does it exist? Man’s or God’s? And if it’s God’s authority can you provide reference that support this?
- What is the position of the Southern Baptist Church concerning Catholics and the Catholic Church in general (IE - Christian/non-Christian, Cult/non-Cult, etc)?
- Generally, most of the Southern Baptists that I have encountered use the KJ version of the Bible. This version does not have the 7 Old Testament Deuterocanonical books that the Catholic Bible has. Why is this? Did the Catholic Church add these books or did Luther and/or other Reformers remove these books from the Bible?
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Jehoshua
Guest
Do baptists believe that a person can believe in christ and be saved despite acting in an objectionable and sinful way?
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crazzeto
Guest
Thanks for starting this thread, I think it will be helpful to have a dedicated means for us Catholics (and Orthodox) to ask why you guys believe what you beleive… Hopefully in a totally less confrontational tone 
I do have one question, I understand that with in protistism in general there is this idea that the Church is “invisible”, or in other words spirit only. I understand that the justification for this is that, as long as “essential” doctrine is all the same, the rest just doesn’t amount to much. So I have a few questions regarding this, especially in light of the S. Baptist tradition of strict Sola Fide.
So I understand the justification for the church having a spirit, and the Catholic church doesn’t disagree. In part this comes from the “cloud” described from Paul. But regarding doctrine, at what point in the bible does it say there is essential as opposed to non-essential doctrine? How from scripture do we know the church is spirit only?
I’d like to take a second to expound on this idea by bringing up specific doctrinal disagreements I know exist with in the protistant church, which seem essential to me.
Real Presense
Some protistant churches beleive in the real presence of the lord in the “Lords Supper”, or as we Catholics call it the Holy Eucharist. Most do not, I imagine that those who do also beleive John 6 “Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you have no life with in you”, I’m not sure what protestants who don’t beleive in real presence think here.
How often to Celebrate the “Lords Supper”, or Holy Communion
Again, some protestants seem to think this should be every service, most others disagree.
I have one more, but I can’t think of it right now. Anyway, I’m curious what your views are on this subject, thanks.
I do have one question, I understand that with in protistism in general there is this idea that the Church is “invisible”, or in other words spirit only. I understand that the justification for this is that, as long as “essential” doctrine is all the same, the rest just doesn’t amount to much. So I have a few questions regarding this, especially in light of the S. Baptist tradition of strict Sola Fide.
So I understand the justification for the church having a spirit, and the Catholic church doesn’t disagree. In part this comes from the “cloud” described from Paul. But regarding doctrine, at what point in the bible does it say there is essential as opposed to non-essential doctrine? How from scripture do we know the church is spirit only?
I’d like to take a second to expound on this idea by bringing up specific doctrinal disagreements I know exist with in the protistant church, which seem essential to me.
Real Presense
Some protistant churches beleive in the real presence of the lord in the “Lords Supper”, or as we Catholics call it the Holy Eucharist. Most do not, I imagine that those who do also beleive John 6 “Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you have no life with in you”, I’m not sure what protestants who don’t beleive in real presence think here.
How often to Celebrate the “Lords Supper”, or Holy Communion
Again, some protestants seem to think this should be every service, most others disagree.
I have one more, but I can’t think of it right now. Anyway, I’m curious what your views are on this subject, thanks.
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Dettingen
Guest
This is a great thread idea. Just remember that because of the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, another person might give different answers. I’m trying to make my answers as representative of the denomination as I can.
“What justification do Baptists give (this is coming from a former Baptist, by the way) for the use of (generally) leavened bread and grape juice for Communion?”
As Baptists interpret Communion as a symbolic act, the use of leavened bread, crackers, etc. just isn’t an issue.
Baptists disapprove of the use of alcohol, therefore they choose juice rather than wine. It’s still the fruit of the vine. There’s an aspect of social responsibility at work: 2000 years ago, if somebody got drunk, the worst thing that could happen is they’d fall off their donkey. Nowadays, drunkenness can harm lots of other innocent people.
“1) What is the Southern Baptists position on predestination as it refers to salvation?”
God knows in advance who will be saved, but God does not choose anybody to be excluded from salvation. Sadly, some people choose to be excluded by refusing to believe.
As I understand it, predestination is a Calvinist doctrine. We need an “Ask a Presbyterian” thread for that.
“2) Can a person loose his/her salvation after “being saved?””
If you’ve believed (John 3:16) how can you stop believing? Kind of like unringing a bell. But true belief is manifested by works. You can tell by the fruit of the tree, so to speak. A tree might claim to be a fruit tree and yet not produce anything worth eating.
“3) If the Baptist Church wasn’t founded until 1609 (and the Southern Baptist Church much later than that), by what authority does it exist? Man’s or God’s? And if it’s God’s authority can you provide reference that support this?”
I’m going to have to look this one up to give a good historical background. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, the short answer is that Baptists individually look to the Holy Spirit for authority.
“4) What is the position of the Southern Baptist Church concerning Catholics and the Catholic Church in general (IE - Christian/non-Christian, Cult/non-Cult, etc)?”
Many Protestants are either ignorant or taught wrongly that Catholics are idol-worshipping unbelievers. Please forgive them. Because Baptists lean on John 3:16 for their understanding of salvation, certainly Catholics are saved. Non-Christians are understood as unsaved, but of the non-Christians, Jews are believed to get a second chance. Cults are seen as destructive and unchristian.
“5) Generally, most of the Southern Baptists that I have encountered use the KJ version of the Bible. This version does not have the 7 Old Testament Deuterocanonical books that the Catholic Bible has. Why is this? Did the Catholic Church add these books or did Luther and/or other Reformers remove these books from the Bible?”
Well, I think most people would argue that the KJV contains the supreme achievement of the English language. Its verses are of sublime and unparalleled beauty. I can’t bear Psalm 23 in any other translation. It just doesn’t sound right.
My first Bible, a KJV, has an interesting historical preface on the development of the canon. That essay says that Luther et al agreed that the Deuterocanonical books and the Apocrypha were “useful and instructive to read” while uninspired. I’ve read these omitted books and agree they are “useful and instructive to read”. I’m not sure about the inspired part. I’m working on that.
More to come…
Pax,
Dettingen.
“What justification do Baptists give (this is coming from a former Baptist, by the way) for the use of (generally) leavened bread and grape juice for Communion?”
As Baptists interpret Communion as a symbolic act, the use of leavened bread, crackers, etc. just isn’t an issue.
Baptists disapprove of the use of alcohol, therefore they choose juice rather than wine. It’s still the fruit of the vine. There’s an aspect of social responsibility at work: 2000 years ago, if somebody got drunk, the worst thing that could happen is they’d fall off their donkey. Nowadays, drunkenness can harm lots of other innocent people.
“1) What is the Southern Baptists position on predestination as it refers to salvation?”
God knows in advance who will be saved, but God does not choose anybody to be excluded from salvation. Sadly, some people choose to be excluded by refusing to believe.
As I understand it, predestination is a Calvinist doctrine. We need an “Ask a Presbyterian” thread for that.
“2) Can a person loose his/her salvation after “being saved?””
If you’ve believed (John 3:16) how can you stop believing? Kind of like unringing a bell. But true belief is manifested by works. You can tell by the fruit of the tree, so to speak. A tree might claim to be a fruit tree and yet not produce anything worth eating.
“3) If the Baptist Church wasn’t founded until 1609 (and the Southern Baptist Church much later than that), by what authority does it exist? Man’s or God’s? And if it’s God’s authority can you provide reference that support this?”
I’m going to have to look this one up to give a good historical background. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, the short answer is that Baptists individually look to the Holy Spirit for authority.
“4) What is the position of the Southern Baptist Church concerning Catholics and the Catholic Church in general (IE - Christian/non-Christian, Cult/non-Cult, etc)?”
Many Protestants are either ignorant or taught wrongly that Catholics are idol-worshipping unbelievers. Please forgive them. Because Baptists lean on John 3:16 for their understanding of salvation, certainly Catholics are saved. Non-Christians are understood as unsaved, but of the non-Christians, Jews are believed to get a second chance. Cults are seen as destructive and unchristian.
“5) Generally, most of the Southern Baptists that I have encountered use the KJ version of the Bible. This version does not have the 7 Old Testament Deuterocanonical books that the Catholic Bible has. Why is this? Did the Catholic Church add these books or did Luther and/or other Reformers remove these books from the Bible?”
Well, I think most people would argue that the KJV contains the supreme achievement of the English language. Its verses are of sublime and unparalleled beauty. I can’t bear Psalm 23 in any other translation. It just doesn’t sound right.
My first Bible, a KJV, has an interesting historical preface on the development of the canon. That essay says that Luther et al agreed that the Deuterocanonical books and the Apocrypha were “useful and instructive to read” while uninspired. I’ve read these omitted books and agree they are “useful and instructive to read”. I’m not sure about the inspired part. I’m working on that.
More to come…
Pax,
Dettingen.
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Dettingen
Guest
“in protistism in general there is this idea that the Church is “invisible”, or in other words spirit only.”
The church is the collection of believers, not a building and not an earthly club or voluntary association. So the definition is broader that that (as I understand it) that of the RCC. See Ephesians 2:14-22. Also I Corinthians 3:16 16 “Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” [Douay-Rheims translation]
BTW, while I’ve got a Douay on the shelf, drbo.org/ is rather handy, don’t you think?
The church is the collection of believers, not a building and not an earthly club or voluntary association. So the definition is broader that that (as I understand it) that of the RCC. See Ephesians 2:14-22. Also I Corinthians 3:16 16 “Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” [Douay-Rheims translation]
BTW, while I’ve got a Douay on the shelf, drbo.org/ is rather handy, don’t you think?
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Dettingen
Guest
“I understand that the justification for this is that, as long as “essential” doctrine is all the same, the rest just doesn’t amount to much.”
Yes, there’s the main things upon which we all–Catholics too!–agree, belief, faith, living our faith through service–and then there’s the details. (Crackers vs leavened bread us unleavened bread)
an aside: I don’t consider transubstantiation mere “details” because it’s so very important to some of my brothers and sisters. It’s important, just not essential to salvation (IMO).
“Your relationship with Jesus Christ makes you a Christian…. A Christian is anyone who has the Spirit of God living in him. If you have sincerely trusted Christ for your salvation and acknowledged him as Lord, then the Holy Spirit has come into your life, and you are a Christian. You won’t know that the Holy Spirit has come if you are waiting for a certain feeling; you will know he has come because Jesus promised he would. When the Holy Spirit is working within you, you will believe that Jesus Christ is God’s Son and that eternal life comes through him (1 John 5:5); you will begin to act as Christ directs (Romans 8:5; Galatians 5:22-23); you will find help in your daily problems and in your praying (Romans 8:26-27); you will be empowered to serve God and do his will (Acts 1:8; Romans 12:6ff.); and you will become part of God’s plan to build up his church (Ephesians 4:12-13).” The Handbook of Bible Application]
Yes, there’s the main things upon which we all–Catholics too!–agree, belief, faith, living our faith through service–and then there’s the details. (Crackers vs leavened bread us unleavened bread)
an aside: I don’t consider transubstantiation mere “details” because it’s so very important to some of my brothers and sisters. It’s important, just not essential to salvation (IMO).
“Your relationship with Jesus Christ makes you a Christian…. A Christian is anyone who has the Spirit of God living in him. If you have sincerely trusted Christ for your salvation and acknowledged him as Lord, then the Holy Spirit has come into your life, and you are a Christian. You won’t know that the Holy Spirit has come if you are waiting for a certain feeling; you will know he has come because Jesus promised he would. When the Holy Spirit is working within you, you will believe that Jesus Christ is God’s Son and that eternal life comes through him (1 John 5:5); you will begin to act as Christ directs (Romans 8:5; Galatians 5:22-23); you will find help in your daily problems and in your praying (Romans 8:26-27); you will be empowered to serve God and do his will (Acts 1:8; Romans 12:6ff.); and you will become part of God’s plan to build up his church (Ephesians 4:12-13).” The Handbook of Bible Application]
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Dettingen
Guest
“some protistant churches beleive in the real presence of the lord in the “Lords Supper”, or as we Catholics call it the Holy Eucharist. Most do not, I imagine that those who do also beleive John 6 “Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you have no life with in you”, I’m not sure what protestants who don’t beleive in real presence think here.”
I’ve never heard of a Protestant doctrine of transubstantiation. I think denying the “real presence” is basic to Protestantism. But I suppose I could be wrong. It’s happened once or twice before.
I think the passage from John 6 can be understood as Jesus pointing out that we must share in his crucifixion to truly be his—Serving Jesus isn’t easy nor for the faint at heart.
“How often to Celebrate the “Lords Supper”, or Holy Communion Again, some protestants seem to think this should be every service, most others disagree.”
The main thing is to celebrate sincerely and seriously. Perhaps some believe that if celebrated too frequently, the rite could loose some of its meaning and become routine, commonplace. We all can agree that should never, ever happen.
I’ve never heard of a Protestant doctrine of transubstantiation. I think denying the “real presence” is basic to Protestantism. But I suppose I could be wrong. It’s happened once or twice before.
I think the passage from John 6 can be understood as Jesus pointing out that we must share in his crucifixion to truly be his—Serving Jesus isn’t easy nor for the faint at heart.
“How often to Celebrate the “Lords Supper”, or Holy Communion Again, some protestants seem to think this should be every service, most others disagree.”
The main thing is to celebrate sincerely and seriously. Perhaps some believe that if celebrated too frequently, the rite could loose some of its meaning and become routine, commonplace. We all can agree that should never, ever happen.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
These types of threads are becoming popular.
Anyways: how closely associated/united/friendly are all the different Baptist denominations? I.E. German Baptist, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Free Baptist etc? Or is it just a name that is shared?
Thanks and God bless
Anyways: how closely associated/united/friendly are all the different Baptist denominations? I.E. German Baptist, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Free Baptist etc? Or is it just a name that is shared?
Thanks and God bless
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Paul3144
Guest
Not really. We do believe a person who has been justified will persevere to the end and be saved. I will say that in some cases a person living a sinful life, such as a person who has fallen into the darkness of a drug addiction, may not be able to, at the time, effect an outward change in some respects; such a person will have the inward fruits of repentance and a desire to change.
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Paul3144
Guest
Many Baptist conventions are part of the World Baptist Alliance. Sadly, the SBC left the WBA in 2004. I know my church has helped and worked with other Baptists, and other denominations. For example, we helped rebuild a non-Baptist church in our city that was burned down by a gang.
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crazzeto
Guest
“High Church” Lutherans (see Ask a Lutheran actually, asked the same question here) and Anglicans (I’ve seen Anglican converts to RCC attest they were taught real presence on JH (EWTN). I acknowlege that the majority opinion is against, but clearly there are elements in Protestantism which does in fact, accept at least some form of Real Presence (Lutherens modify doctrine).“some protistant churches beleive in the real presence of the lord in the “Lords Supper”, or as we Catholics call it the Holy Eucharist. Most do not, I imagine that those who do also beleive John 6 “Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you have no life with in you”, I’m not sure what protestants who don’t beleive in real presence think here.”
I’ve never heard of a Protestant doctrine of transubstantiation. I think denying the “real presence” is basic to Protestantism. But I suppose I could be wrong. It’s happened once or twice before.
I think the passage from John 6 can be understood as Jesus pointing out that we must share in his crucifixion to truly be his—Serving Jesus isn’t easy nor for the faint at heart.
“How often to Celebrate the “Lords Supper”, or Holy Communion Again, some protestants seem to think this should be every service, most others disagree.”
The main thing is to celebrate sincerely and seriously. Perhaps some believe that if celebrated too frequently, the rite could loose some of its meaning and become routine, commonplace. We all can agree that should never, ever happen.
So back on the main point then, we have Protestants who beleive very similarly, or in at least some rare case exactly as we Catholics believe conserning the Eucharist (Lords Supper). This then, sort of makes the issue of the Lords Supper an “essential doctrine”, for “If you do not eat of my body, and drink my blood you have no life in you”. So how is this conflict of “essential” v. “non-essential” doctrine solved?
Also, how do we determain which is which?
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
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Carlan
Guest
We do believe a person who has been justified will persevere to the end and be saved.
HI Paul, does that mean if you live a life of never sinning or offending God?
What happens to all the Baptists who divorce and remarry, some who have done this more than once and those Baptists who live to gether with out marriage and yet go to church on Wednesdays and Sundays anyway,and many of the other very serious unrepented sins, Does your original justification, saving experiece cover those sins also? Just wondering.
Carlan
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Dettingen
Guest
“So back on the main point then, we have Protestants who beleive very similarly, or in at least some rare case exactly as we Catholics believe conserning the Eucharist (Lords Supper). This then, sort of makes the issue of the Lords Supper an “essential doctrine”, for “If you do not eat of my body, and drink my blood you have no life in you”. So how is this conflict of “essential” v. “non-essential” doctrine solved?”
To me, the essentials are do we believe? Do our actions reflect God within us? Organizing ourselves into just one earthly organization doesn’t seem as important as serving God.
I guess what makes me this way is this: my dear Father-in-law (ordained Baptist minister, Ph.D. in religion, man of great faith and sacrificial service) helped me understand that not only is it impossible for me to really truly understand everything, but that it’s okay to not even try.
I was raised to believe that certain people had greater religious authority than I. Ministers and the like. But then several ministers were in authority over me in a job situation. I took a stand against racism and in doing so, inadvertently threatened one minister-boss’s political ambitions. I got fired. I’ve given up on earthly churches and their leaders. When it really mattered, they stood up for mammon, not for LOVE.
I have come to believe that what is important is that I try to live a life which outwardly manifests my love for God. Of course, I’m an utter failure at that, but I keep trying. My failure to live up to God is a constant pressing grief on my heart.
So if you want to be Catholic, Anglican, whatever, that’s fine. The differences in beliefs beyond what I’ve said above are between you and God. I love you as you are, and if called, I’ll die trying to ensure your freedom to have your beliefs.
If that’s not good enough for you to find unity with me, I’m sad but I won’t change.
To me, the essentials are do we believe? Do our actions reflect God within us? Organizing ourselves into just one earthly organization doesn’t seem as important as serving God.
I guess what makes me this way is this: my dear Father-in-law (ordained Baptist minister, Ph.D. in religion, man of great faith and sacrificial service) helped me understand that not only is it impossible for me to really truly understand everything, but that it’s okay to not even try.
I was raised to believe that certain people had greater religious authority than I. Ministers and the like. But then several ministers were in authority over me in a job situation. I took a stand against racism and in doing so, inadvertently threatened one minister-boss’s political ambitions. I got fired. I’ve given up on earthly churches and their leaders. When it really mattered, they stood up for mammon, not for LOVE.
I have come to believe that what is important is that I try to live a life which outwardly manifests my love for God. Of course, I’m an utter failure at that, but I keep trying. My failure to live up to God is a constant pressing grief on my heart.
So if you want to be Catholic, Anglican, whatever, that’s fine. The differences in beliefs beyond what I’ve said above are between you and God. I love you as you are, and if called, I’ll die trying to ensure your freedom to have your beliefs.
If that’s not good enough for you to find unity with me, I’m sad but I won’t change.
D
Dettingen
Guest
“What happens to all the Baptists who divorce and remarry, some who have done this more than once and those Baptists who live to gether with out marriage and yet go to church on Wednesdays and Sundays anyway,and many of the other very serious unrepented sins, Does your original justification, saving experiece cover those sins also?”
That original justification isn’t a get-out-of-hell-free card. Divorce is sinful, adultery is sin, and so on. Dying with an unrepented, unforgiven sin on one’s conscience is a damnable offence. All sins are of equal gravity, because all sin separates us from God. And I believe that God continues to forgive, no matter how many times I sin, so long as my repentance is real.
That original justification isn’t a get-out-of-hell-free card. Divorce is sinful, adultery is sin, and so on. Dying with an unrepented, unforgiven sin on one’s conscience is a damnable offence. All sins are of equal gravity, because all sin separates us from God. And I believe that God continues to forgive, no matter how many times I sin, so long as my repentance is real.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Yes, but believe what exactly, that is the question at hand. What are the things that need to be believed and adhered to for salvation?
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E.E.N.S
Guest
, because all sin separates us from God. And I believe that God continues to forgive, no matter how many times I sin, *so long as my repentance is real.*I beg to differ, and I will use the Apostle John as a reference: 1 John 5:16-17
…also Jesus tells us that there are different ‘levels’ of sin, in Matt 12:31-32
Do you really think that a person who stubs his toe and curses sins as gravely as the person who rapes and murders his neighbor’s family all while blaspheming God?
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