The "Ask a Lutheran" Thread!

[JonNC]

=AmericanJosiah;6170739]My Catholic teachers taught me that “consubstantiation” was yet another of the theories invented by the medieval, western, Catholic Scholastics. I forget the name of that man most associated with it…

Duns Scotus?

As I understand it (and yup, I’m a fairly new convert to Lutheranism), Lutheranism simply embraces Real Presense. Passionately and literally. As I like to put it, in the Eucharistic texts, the meaning of is is is (pardon the grammar, lol). I’ve discovered that Lutherans embrace all this as real, physical, literal - and significant - as do Catholics.

The “difference” is that while Lutherans regard the bread and wine as totally moot to anything at all (CHRIST IS PRESENT - by obsess over that dry waffer or the wine the ladies got on sale, lol?), nor it is dogmatically DENIED. Paul speaks of bread and wine more often AFTER the Consecration than before it. There’s no TEXTUAL or theological reason to “explain away” what the text clearly says with a “half literal/ half symobolic” interpretation (as Zwingli did). But again, all this is simply moot and irrelevant. Who cares about the bread and wine? CHRIST is here! CHRIST is the focus. CHRIST is the object of faith. CHRIST is the blessing and Blesser.

Lutherans simply affirm the miracle, the mystery. Lutherans simply affirm the inscripturated words of God in the text - all of them. Literally. Fully. Lutherans feel no need to tell God HOW He fulfills His promises or grants His blessings. There’s just no need to do that. Lutherans are simply more comfortable with mystery, with leaving things as God does in His Word.

I agree that 'Sacramental Union." As I understand this, it’s NOT dogma but it was a common thought among the Lutheran Fathers. It is the mystery that His Body and Blood are in a “union” (of some nature unknown to us - it’s not necessary that it is known to us) with the bread and wine. Luther’s words in the Small Catechism of “in, with, and under” (which I find odd, btw) are - I think - his way of conveying this to children (the Catechism was written for such). Christ is THERE. And there is some mysterious “connection” of such to bread and wine. This DOES seem to be in conflict with the dogma of Transubstantiation that The Catholic Church would adopt just after Luther’s death - that concerns the word “convert” in the Eucharistic texts (which, of course, doesn’t exist in any of them). Luther’s concern was not to deny or explain away what the texts say, or to impose alchemy or Aristotle’s theory of accidents. I think he simply desired to affirm the REALITY of Christ and His literal, physical, real presence - without saying anything about the bread and wine.

The best description of Lutheran belief in the Real Presence is in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper.

This describes not only the mystery of the Eucharist, clearly expressed in scripture, but accurately reflects the teachings of the early Church and ECF’s.

Jon

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Duns Scotus?

The best description of Lutheran belief in the Real Presence is in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

This describes not only the mystery of the Eucharist, clearly expressed in scripture, but accurately reflects the teachings of the early Church and ECF’s.

Jon

Excellent post. And yes, Don Scotus - he’s the one associated with Consubstantiation, not Luther…

Thank you!

Pax

• Josiah

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[bluelake]

The following website was brought to my attention by an ELCA member in South Carolina.
It seems there is a growing movement from within the ELCA to return that Lutheran body to Orthodox Lutheranism regarding this past summer’s Churchwide Assemby, and its statement about practicing gays in the clergy.
I pray for these, my fellow Lutherans, in their actions.

reformfromwithin.com/aboutus.html

Jon

Jon,
Are you aware that ELCA allows practicing gays to receive Holy Communion?
They also ordain women.
Do you go along with these techings?

bluelake

 

[Nominefili]

Jon,
Are you aware that ELCA allows practicing gays to receive Holy Communion?
They also ordain women.
Do you go along with these techings?

bluelake

Edit:

Misread you bluelake. Apologies.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,
Are you aware that ELCA allows practicing gays to receive Holy Communion?
They also ordain women.
Do you go along with these techings?

bluelake

When I moved from ELCA to LCMS about 10 years ago, I was rather neutral re: ordination of women. I have been for quite some time now, in favor of ordination of men only.

As for communing practicing gays, there are probably lots of practing heterosexual adulterers who also commune in any number of communions, also, as well as others with sin. The concern, as I see it, with the ELCA is whether or not they recognize it as sin anymore.

All that said, nearly all of my family remains ELCA - Mom terminated her membership - and from them I see and hear signs that the Holy Spirit is moving in a number of different ways to return the ELCA to orthodox Lutheran belief. Pray for our Lutheran siblings in the ELCA.

Jon

 

[olds442]

Great thread!! As a former Catholic and new Lutheran I am learning a great deal Thanks

 

[Deacon_Latif]

I just recently join Catholic Answers Forums, and am enjoying exploring the many discussion possibilities at this point. Clarifying Lutheran doctrine is indeed very important and necessary amid the confusion that surrounds too much ecumenical discussion today. Therefore I will attend to this as best I can, and be open to participating as best I can as well. I myself am a traditionalist Lutheran, serving the Church in diaconal ministry in Milwaukee. I am blessed to be part of a parish that has daily Mass, which I attend as often as my schedule will allow. From my perspective I have seen all too much confusion about genuine Lutheran doctrine and traditional Lutheran practice from both Catholics and Lutherans. So I pray this discussion will help.
Thanks.
Latif

 

[Deacon_Latif]

// question…what bible translation (default) does the lutheran church use???

There is not a singular answer to this question. At my parish, Saint Stephen’s in Milwaukee, which is part of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, we use the King James Version in the readings at Mass. We also use the Coverdale version for certain parts of the liturgy, such as the Lavabo Psalm, and Psalm 42 in the preparatory rite. We also celebrate Mass in Latin on occasion.
Latif

 

[Deacon_Latif]

During communion, what is the Lutheran take on exactly how long the bread is actually Christ’s body?
And…you guys don’t honor Mary much at all right?

Hi Teneas. 1. It is most unLutheran to establish some sort of time limit on the presence of our Lord in the Blessed Eucharist. So, from the consecration, until the Sacred Species have been consumed into the body of the communicant, it is precisely Christ’s true, real, and substantial Body and Blood that is present and adorable.

1. This guy, with the Blessed Reformer, and all of the Lutheran fathers, honors the Mother of God as the pure, holy, and ever-virgin.

 

[JonNC]

I just recently join Catholic Answers Forums, and am enjoying exploring the many discussion possibilities at this point. Clarifying Lutheran doctrine is indeed very important and necessary amid the confusion that surrounds too much ecumenical discussion today. Therefore I will attend to this as best I can, and be open to participating as best I can as well. I myself am a traditionalist Lutheran, serving the Church in diaconal ministry in Milwaukee. I am blessed to be part of a parish that has daily Mass, which I attend as often as my schedule will allow. From my perspective I have seen all too much confusion about genuine Lutheran doctrine and traditional Lutheran practice from both Catholics and Lutherans. So I pray this discussion will help.
Thanks.
Latif

I sure do look forward to your participation, Latif. And perhaps an occasional PM, if you’re interested. Welcome
Jon

 

[Deacon_Latif]

I sure do look forward to your participation, Latif. And perhaps an occasional PM, if you’re interested. Welcome
Jon

Jon:
I suppose I am new to some of the lingo of Catholic Answers. What is “PM”?
Latif

 

[qui_est_ce]

Jon:
I suppose I am new to some of the lingo of Catholic Answers. What is “PM”?
Latif

PM = private message

LCMS has “mass?” I don’t remember them calling their services “mass” in St. Louis.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

PM = private message

LCMS has “mass?” I don’t remember them calling their services “mass” in St. Louis.

Hi Christine:
Some of my hypotheses for PM were: post mortem, poly math, or post meridien.

Parishes within the LCMS are by no means uniform in their practice. Mine is a traditional parish, where we embrace the traditional terminology of the Mass, used for example in the Augsburg Confession, to which all priests and teachers of the Synod formally subscribe.

 

[here_i_stand]

Agreed on the concern.

My church and other congregations in my synod have effectively altered the Nicene Creed on their own - instead of “one holy catholic and apostolic church,” it’s been altered to read “one holy christian and apostolic church.”

Catholic does not mean the same thing as christian.



There needs to be some kind of significant movement against this type of thing- most people just accept it because it’s what their pastor says, and because the worship folder represents that it’s been “said this way since the 300’s.”

I shall borrow a phrase from Catholics and brand this type of thing liturgical abuse. And that’s being generous.

:thumbsup:I totally agree with this. I’m WELS, and I really disliked that particular change. They are two different words.

 

[jessep28]

Has anybody’s LCMS parish gone through the Consecrated Stewards program? My parish is starting that whole process tomorrow and I wonder what it’s like. The cynic in me from viewing information on the LCEF website believes it is a just motivational tool to increase donations.

 

[Christina009]

I just joined a Lutheran church a year ago. This last Sunday all members were handed a packet, “Stewards living a God-Pleasing Life”.
There are questions that I find offensive personally.
One asks for “Ethnic Origin”. What does my Ethnic Origin have to do with being a Lutheran.
If I hadn’t grown up with prejudice all my life then this wouldn’t bother me at all I’m sure.
Then they ask about everyone living in the household.
Name,Sex,birth,baptism,relationship,cell phone,work phone number.
I attend church because I want to attend. My husband and others do not attend because they don’t want to have anything to do with church. So why should I have to give info on them?
Then they want me to fill out a commitment form:
I commit to be faithful with my time by spending an average of _____ minutes per day in bible study and reading over the next year.
I will attend____ group bible study per month.
I will faithfully worship___ times per year.
I commit to be faithful with my talents:
I will do the following____.
I commit to be faithful with my money:
As a steward of God’s resourses my percentage commitment of my income to Him through my church will be _percent which is $ per week.
Personally I believe all this should be personal between me and God.
The church will actually lose if I fill this out because I am more generous then I should be,but if I fill this form out I will not be able to give as much.
Mainly because I had been tithing including my husband’s income,but now I won’t be able to do that. He’s be furious if he knew I was giving what I have.
Anyway,I’d like to know if this is a common practice for Lutherans and or any other churches.

 

[IAGladfelter]

I just joined a Lutheran church a year ago. This last Sunday all members were handed a packet, “Stewards living a God-Pleasing Life”.
There are questions that I find offensive personally.
One asks for “Ethnic Origin”. What does my Ethnic Origin have to do with being a Lutheran.
If I hadn’t grown up with prejudice all my life then this wouldn’t bother me at all I’m sure.
Then they ask about everyone living in the household.
Name,Sex,birth,baptism,relationship,cell phone,work phone number.
I attend church because I want to attend. My husband and others do not attend because they don’t want to have anything to do with church. So why should I have to give info on them?
Then they want me to fill out a commitment form:
I commit to be faithful with my time by spending an average of _____ minutes per day in bible study and reading over the next year.
I will attend____ group bible study per month.
I will faithfully worship___ times per year.
I commit to be faithful with my talents:
I will do the following____.
I commit to be faithful with my money:
As a steward of God’s resourses my percentage commitment of my income to Him through my church will be _percent which is $ per week.
Personally I believe all this should be personal between me and God.
The church will actually lose if I fill this out because I am more generous then I should be,but if I fill this form out I will not be able to give as much.
Mainly because I had been tithing including my husband’s income,but now I won’t be able to do that. He’s be furious if he knew I was giving what I have.
Anyway,I’d like to know if this is a common practice for Lutherans and or any other churches.

I have not seen this sort of form very often in parishes of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) - sometimes, yes, but not oftern. I have, however seen just this form or one only slightly different used in a number of parishes of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS). the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS).

Ethnic origin is of importance to many Lutheran Churches since, their origins are in Germany or one of the Scandanavian nations, and there has been, until recent decades in the United States, a tendency for Lutheran Churches to be culturally ethnic Churches not entirely unlike the Greek and other Eastern ORthodox Churches are nationally and culturally ethnic. Where this is so, there has historically been, in the U.S., some concern about diluting the ethnicity of a parish: Danes should go to Danish parishes, not to predominately German or Swedish ones. Thankfully, there is less of this today, but it is a long way from going away entirely. As recent as 1987, there were German LCMS parishes in which one Sunday service (the main one) was in German as were the Easter and Christmas Eve services.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[IAGladfelter]

Hi Teneas. 1. It is most unLutheran to establish some sort of time limit on the presence of our Lord in the Blessed Eucharist. So, from the consecration, until the Sacred Species have been consumed into the body of the communicant, it is precisely Christ’s true, real, and substantial Body and Blood that is present and adorable.

1. This guy, with the Blessed Reformer, and all of the Lutheran fathers, honors the Mother of God as the pure, holy, and ever-virgin.

Well, pertaining to the Eucharist: Some (not all by any means, but some) Missouri Synod (LCMS) Pastors I have personally known have taught that the Real Presence occurred only at the instant of communion itself, and was not there either before or after, and return unused wine to the bottle to be used at a future communion service. They further say (most LCMS’ers actually) that the Sacrament consists of the acts of taking, breaking (the fraction), blessing, and eating; and if one of these are absent there is no "valid Sacrament.

Like the Eastern Orthodox, the Wisconsin Synod (WELS) refuses to “fix the moment” the Real Presence occurs. Unlike the Eastern Orthodox, the WELS does not define its duration of the Real Presence.

(For whatever it is worth, my own Church’s Eucharistic theology - and liturgy - is identical to that of the Roman Catholic Church.)

Blessings,
Irl

P.S. going back to the questions about the PArishioner Registration Card / Application, apart from ethnicity, the questions asked are, in my experience pretty common in the LCMS, WELS, ELS, and in the more conservative parishes in the ELCA and new Synods which have separated from it over sexuality. There are pastoral reasons for that, as well as wanting to gauge a person and a family’s probable level of commitment to the congregation.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

If Luther did not remove books, and Trent did not add books, why does my sisters church have fewer OT books? Either way, I respect either position, but only embrace one.

 

[IAGladfelter]

joe370;6089672:

Dear Joe370:
The Lutheran Bible and the Roman Catholic Bible have virtually the same content; they only difer in that some of the writings are arranged differently. Modern American Lutherans tend not to appreciate this truth, because too many of them have been brought up with Protestant Bibles, which have eliminated whole sections from the OT. Nevertheless, Luther’s German translation of the Bible was a complete Bible, with the deuterocanonical writings, and it was printed and used, even in American Lutheran Churches, well into the 20th century. This changed, chiefly and sadly, when in the case of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, they started switching over to English. Sorry to rudely jump in here. I’m still quite new to Catholic Answers. By the way, I said “virtually” above because one little difference, contentwise, is that Luther includes The Prayer of Manasses, in what he calls Old Testament Apocrypha, and that is not included in modern Catholic Bibles. (It is, however, included in the back of the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate.)
Latif

Martin Luther’s translation is still used intact, apocrypha, Prayer of Manasses, et. al. by the Lutheran Churches in the German-speaking areas of Europe. In the U.S. the Luther Bible is used in congregations which conduct their worship services in German (there were still a few of them around as recently as 1987.)

Generally, though, Lutheranism in America has come under Calvinist influence from many sources (Pietism, the Calvinism in which American culture has been steeped since colonial days, Calvinist influence from the Prussian Union Church (the Evangelical and Reformed Church in the U.S. among other sources) have come to accept the general Calvinist opinion that Luther erred when he included the deuterocanonical books in his translation (as in “Luther had his blind spots.”) Those books are actually respected by ELCA and LCMS Lutheran clergy more than they are by the clergy of other Protestant Ecclesial Communities other than the “high church” Anglicans, but they are never read in Church. In my experience, the laity are told not to read or study them.

Blessings,
Irl