The "Ask a Lutheran" Thread!

[spoiltvictorian]

Regarding the Lord’s Supper, Lutherans do believe that Christ’s body and blood are present in the Sacrament of the Alter. However, we don’t go as far as believing in transubstantiation.

On the frequency of Communion, in practice it’s really a matter of congregational preference. In most LCMS Lutheran churches, you either see the Eucharist celebrated weekly or bi-weeky. I think the primary argument against having weekly Communion is that it would water down the significance of receiving Christ’s body and blood, which is I think is a garbage argument. In my humble opinion, I think it’s because there is a conception that weekly Communion is a “Roman Catholic thing,” just like making the sign of the cross.

But I am more high church than most. Maybe some more moderate Lutherans can chime in.

Pssh, everybody knows the primary argument is that communion adds 15 more minutes to the service.

 

[crazzeto]

Regarding the Lord’s Supper, Lutherans do believe that Christ’s body and blood are present in the Sacrament of the Alter. However, we don’t go as far as believing in transubstantiation.

On the frequency of Communion, in practice it’s really a matter of congregational preference. In most LCMS Lutheran churches, you either see the Eucharist celebrated weekly or bi-weeky. I think the primary argument against having weekly Communion is that it would water down the significance of receiving Christ’s body and blood, which is I think is a garbage argument. In my humble opinion, I think it’s because there is a conception that weekly Communion is a “Roman Catholic thing,” just like making the sign of the cross.

But I am more high church than most. Maybe some more moderate Lutherans can chime in.

Thank you for this explanation, one more question here. You say:

Regarding the Lord’s Supper, Lutherans do believe that Christ’s body and blood are present in the Sacrament of the Alter. However, we don’t go as far as believing in transubstantiation.

How can one explain “believing in real presence”, has what seems to be suggested here, but not believe in transubstantiation? Transubstantiation is mearly a philisophical mechinism used to help us explain real presense.

Also do you have any comments regarding my “invisible church” question? Thanks so much for taking the time to respond! God Bless.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Thank you for this explanation, one more question here. You say:

How can one explain “believing in real presence”, has what seems to be suggested here, but not believe in transubstantiation? Transubstantiation is mearly a philisophical mechinism used to help us explain real presense.

Hope you don’t mind if I also answer. The teaching of Lutherans is different in that we believe that the Body and Blood are “in, with and under” the bread and wine. So four substances, bread, Body, wine and Blood, are all present at Communion. It is also different in that we believe the Body and Blood of Christ cease to be present after Communion whereas Catholics believe the change is permanent.

 

[crazzeto]

Hope you don’t mind if I also answer. The teaching of Lutherans is different in that we believe that the Body and Blood are “in, with and under” the bread and wine. So four substances, bread, Body, wine and Blood, are all present at Communion. It is also different in that we believe the Body and Blood of Christ cease to be present after Communion whereas Catholics believe the change is permanent.

Thank you for that clarification.

 

[Nominefili]

.

Also do you have any comments regarding my “invisible church” question? Thanks so much for taking the time to respond! God Bless.

Lutherans do not confess that the church is only invisible. We believe in two distinctive components of the church: the church militant and the church triumphant. The church militant is comprised of those christians who are alive, and the church triumphant is composed of those christians who are in heaven. (Notice we do not confess the existence of the church suffering.)

The visible church, however, is not embodied in the magisterium but rather in the individual congregation. It is from these congregations that the authority to consecrate the elements, ordain clergy, forgive and retain sins, and authority to proclaim the gospel flows. “Where two or more are gathered in my name”, etc.

The confusing part is that there may be members of our visible church (i.e. baptized, confirmed Lutherans) who do not have faith, and are therefore not members of the invisible church.

 

[crazzeto]

Lutherans do not confess that the church is only invisible. We believe in two distinctive components of the church: the church militant and the church triumphant. The church militant is comprised of those christians who are alive, and the church triumphant is composed of those christians who are in heaven. (Notice we do not confess the existence of the church suffering.)

The visible church, however, is not embodied in the magisterium but rather in the individual congregation. It is from these congregations that the authority to consecrate the elements, ordain clergy, forgive and retain sins, and authority to proclaim the gospel flows. “Where two or more are gathered in my name”, etc.

The confusing part is that there may be members of our visible church (i.e. baptized, confirmed Lutherans) who do not have faith, and are therefore not members of the invisible church.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer, God Bless.

 

[workingman]

Which Lutheran Study Bible?

Augsburg Fortress (ELCA) and Concordia Publishing House (LCMS) both released new study bibles this year using Lutheran Study Bible in the title. Although I think Augburg’s version omits “The” from the title.

Anyways, I received my copy of The Lutheran Study Bible (Concordia) a couple weeks ago and I really like it so far. It will be a resource I will be able to rely on for years.

Thank you for the response. I was referring to the CPH (LCMS) Study Bible. I heard about it before I left the LCMS and was wondering if it was as good as they were saying. As I am still looking at obtaining a copy.

 

[workingman]

I love it. I enjoyed using the Reformed Reformation Study Bible for years, but this is much better. I do wish that quotes from the Book of Concord, especially from the Small Catechism, would have been inserted into the exposition and commentary along with explanation from modern writers.

From the little research and from responses sound like it went over well. Did they at least appendix the Small Catechism?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have noticed a trend on the forums - people do not seem to understand what Lutherans believe. So I wanted to make a thread to consolidate any questions or comments you might have about Lutheranism. It could be about our doctrine, our history, the differences between our Synods, what to expect in a Lutheran liturgy, etc. Anything you can think of! I (and I’m sure my fellow Lutherans) would be happy to explain our beliefs and teach about our faith.

I see a big difficult juggling act for Luther on his view of the sacraments and the sola of faith alone. Do you seem to agree?

 

[Nominefili]

I see a big difficult juggling act for Luther on his view of the sacraments and the sola of faith alone. Do you seem to agree?

Could you expound upon your question? I’m having trouble seeing what you’re getting at.

I’m assuming that you’re asking why, if baptism saves, does faith save as well? Or are you asking why we receive absolution from our clergy, from the sacrament of the altar and from baptism when we’re saved by faith?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Could you expound upon your question? I’m having trouble seeing what you’re getting at.

I’m assuming that you’re asking why, if baptism saves, does faith save as well? Or are you asking why we receive absolution from our clergy, from the sacrament of the altar and from baptism when we’re saved by faith?

Lutherans probably have the highest view of the two sacraments than all other Protestant denominations, correct? Did Luther believe that water baptism regenerated us? As a Reformed Christian, I do believe in infant baptism, but not as a conversion sacrament.

 

[jessep28]

Thank you for the response. I was referring to the CPH (LCMS) Study Bible. I heard about it before I left the LCMS and was wondering if it was as good as they were saying. As I am still looking at obtaining a copy.

Have you checked out the samples online at cph.org?

 

[JonNC]

Do Lutherans today distance themselves from some of the teachings of Luther?

Simply, Lutherans are held to the Lutheran Confessions and scripture, not Luther personally. That Lutherr’s beliefs influenced the Confessions in many ways is, of course, obvious.

Many areas of Luther’s personal beliefs, such as Marian devotion, etc., even he said are idiaphora, and left to the conscience of the believer.

Jon

EDIT: Lutherans do distance themselves from some og his later anti-jewish writers, just like Catholics do the anti-jewish writing of Luther contemporaries like Eck.

 

[JonNC]

Lutherans probably have the highest view of the two sacraments than all other Protestant denominations, correct? Did Luther believe that water baptism regenerated us? As a Reformed Christian, I do believe in infant baptism, but not as a conversion sacrament.

Yes, you are correct, and confession and Holy Absolution as well, probably.

Jon

 

[Oldtimer_7]

As a newbie here, I must say that I am impressed at the hospitality: even having a thread just for Lutherans. As an ELCA member, I must comment on the social statement and the resolutions on gay clergy and on recognizing non-marital unions. I am president of council and have been working to keep the congregation together since the vote. My membership predates the ELCA by a long time. I was baptized in the Evangelische Kirche Deutschland (Evangelical Church of Germany) and we joined my congregation in the mid-50’s. Though I disagree with the resolutions, I am not about to let a bunch from Minneapolis run me out of my own church.

For all the lofty language and ideals, the resolutions are just sentiments. Critical terms are not defined, so the implications of the votes are still unclear. How long is a relationship before it can be called “committed?” And what does it mean to recognize a union? Are we talking church or labor relations? It will take years probably to sort out how the resolutions can be put into practice.

The independence of the local congregations is a two-edged sword. The national church has no control over the local churches, and the state synods have little more. They act a clearinghouses for finding pastors and coordinating larger church efforts. The only time the synod can impose any will on a local congregation is if there is a split and then they only help decide which group gets to keep the building.

A case in point is the Georgia Synod. They were only able to suspend the membership of the church in Atlanta with the gay pastor. I don;t know how much benevolence the congregation sent the Synod, but the upshot was that the local congregation had to keep all that nasty money.

I do not totally denigrate the national church. One of its predecessor bodies funded and supported the Lutheran Refugee Relief effort that brought my family to this country after WWII. The church of which I am now a member sponsored us to come to this area. I do not see how a single church could do such things.

Without its conservative membership, the ELCA would end up looking like Barack Obama’s denomination. If we are in the struggle, at least we can keep the liberals from totally becoming Lutheran Unitarians. Then, too, the Lutheran World Fellowship looks askance at this vote. The Lutheran Church in Africa, which is totally opposed to the social statement and the resolutions, is considering asking that the ELCA be kicked out. There are about twice the Lutherans in Africa than in Europe and nearly seven times those in the US. So, this story is a long way from played out.

One of the great themes of the Epistles is endurance. This is the time for us in the ELCA to endure, and not jump ship precipitously. As bad as the frying pan is, the fire is worse.

 

[Nominefili]

As a newbie here, I must say that I am impressed at the hospitality: even having a thread just for Lutherans. As an ELCA member, I must comment on the social statement and the resolutions on gay clergy and on recognizing non-marital unions. I am president of council and have been working to keep the congregation together since the vote. My membership predates the ELCA by a long time. I was baptized in the Evangelische Kirche Deutschland (Evangelical Church of Germany) and we joined my congregation in the mid-50’s. Though I disagree with the resolutions, I am not about to let a bunch from Minneapolis run me out of my own church.

For all the lofty language and ideals, the resolutions are just sentiments. Critical terms are not defined, so the implications of the votes are still unclear. How long is a relationship before it can be called “committed?” And what does it mean to recognize a union? Are we talking church or labor relations? It will take years probably to sort out how the resolutions can be put into practice.

The independence of the local congregations is a two-edged sword. The national church has no control over the local churches, and the state synods have little more. They act a clearinghouses for finding pastors and coordinating larger church efforts. The only time the synod can impose any will on a local congregation is if there is a split and then they only help decide which group gets to keep the building.

A case in point is the Georgia Synod. They were only able to suspend the membership of the church in Atlanta with the gay pastor. I don;t know how much benevolence the congregation sent the Synod, but the upshot was that the local congregation had to keep all that nasty money.

I do not totally denigrate the national church. One of its predecessor bodies funded and supported the Lutheran Refugee Relief effort that brought my family to this country after WWII. The church of which I am now a member sponsored us to come to this area. I do not see how a single church could do such things.

Without its conservative membership, the ELCA would end up looking like Barack Obama’s denomination. If we are in the struggle, at least we can keep the liberals from totally becoming Lutheran Unitarians. Then, too, the Lutheran World Fellowship looks askance at this vote. The Lutheran Church in Africa, which is totally opposed to the social statement and the resolutions, is considering asking that the ELCA be kicked out. There are about twice the Lutherans in Africa than in Europe and nearly seven times those in the US. So, this story is a long way from played out.

One of the great themes of the Epistles is endurance. This is the time for us in the ELCA to endure, and not jump ship precipitously. As bad as the frying pan is, the fire is worse.

I thank you sincerely for your forthright and well-informed response. Welcome to the forums!

As I have said, we in the LCMS pray that those who would lead the ELCA away from the Apostolic Faith and the Holy Scriptures would see the error of their ways and instead allow the Holy Spirit to lead them in truth.

As far as ‘sticking it out’ versus leaving the Synod goes, my heart is gladdened to hear that there are some Confessional Lutherans fighting the good fight in the ELCA. We know, as I’ve said before, that there are many more conservative congregants in the ELCA than either the LCMS or WELS would like to admit. My heart goes out to you.

However, you should feel some comfort in knowing that the LCMS is ready and willing to embrace the conservative members of the ELCA, should push come to shove. At the end of the day, it’s all about preaching the Word faithfully and administering the Sacraments according to Christ’s institution. All the politics in the world can’t take that away from us, and I believe it would behoove all of the American Lutheran church bodies to refocus themselves on the proclamation of the Gospel, putting the advancement of Christ’s kingdom ahead of our individual sociopolitical agendas.

Again, welcome to the thread, and welcome to the forums!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with this question. But if you’re asking whether Lutherans necessarily believe in everything that Luther believed in, the answer would be no. Luther held certain doctrines, particularly the immaculate conception and the semper virgo, which the Lutheran church has distanced itself from. We have generally left it up to the individual rather than establishing firm synodical positions on them, as we don’t consider those beliefs to be necessary for salvation.

What are the major differences between the Lutheran Churces.( I know of three distinct denominations, but there are probably more)

Thanks.

 

[gcnuss]

What are the major differences between the Lutheran Churces.( I know of three distinct denominations, but there are probably more)

Thanks.

GCK,

I’ll jump in with an answer from the perspective of an ELCA pastor.

The three major Lutheran groups in the United States are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LC-MS), and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS). In addition, there are 15-20 smaller Lutheran groups.

All Lutherans subscribe to the Augsburg Confession and to the other documents contained in the Book of Concord (including the three ecumenical creeds).

Many would classify the ELCA as “liberal,” the LC-MS as “conservative,” and the WELS as “ultra-conservative.” Most of the smaller groups fall somewhere in the “conservative” to “ultra-conservative” spectrum. However these labels are not always helpful in understanding what different Lutherans believe and practice.

For example, apart from the ELCA most Lutherans practice closed communion and do not ordain women. In this way, their ecclesiology is much like that of the Catholic Church. On the other hand, the conservative Lutherans are more likely to be anti-Catholic in their teachings. The ELCA, in contrast, seeks good relations with the Catholic Church.

If you would like more information about the different Lutheran churches, you can find short summaries here:

pastorzip.org/uslutheranlinx.html

I hope this helps a little.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Anybody see Ingmar Bergman’s “Winter Light” (Nattvardsgästerna)?

What’s the Lutheran take on the Problem of Evil?

 

[Nominefili]

What are the major differences between the Lutheran Churces.( I know of three distinct denominations, but there are probably more)

Thanks.

As far as the LCMS vs. WELS goes, here is what I wrote before (copied from earlier in the thread)

There are two principal differences between the WELS and the LCMS. The first is their respective understandings of church fellowship. The WELS has a ‘unit’ concept of fellowship; they believe that all aspects of fellowship are on the same level. This means that altar fellowship is placed on the same level as prayer fellowship. As such, WELS are very careful about prayer and will generally not pray publicly with those who are not in communion with their Synod. The LCMS has historically distinguished between types of fellowship; i.e. an LCMS pastor will not (or should not anyway) commune someone who is not LCMS or one of her sister churches abroad. However, an LCMS pastor may pray with Christians of other denominations.

The second large difference is regarding the office of the holy ministry. The LCMS teaches that the pastoral office is distinctly ordained by Christ, and therefore should be thought of in a different light than other functions of the ministry (i.e. teachers and elders, etc.) The LCMS sees these different offices as being created by man for the benefit of the church and to fulfill her purpose, whereas the WELS Theses on Church and Ministry states that the pastoral office is not instituted apart from the other offices of the church.

One other difference is that women can vote on congregational matters in most LCMS congregations (an LCMS congregation’s constitution, rather than the Synod, determines this for each congregation) whereas women are not permitted to vote in the Wisconsin Synod.

It should be noted, though that the WELS and LCMS agree 99% of the time. Specifically with the current questions of female ordination and homosexual marriage/ordination, the LCMS and WELS have been in lock-step together. They have the same understanding of the role and nature of Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions in the life of the church.

The difference between these two bodies and the ELCA primarily comes from their varying levels of subscription to the Lutheran Confessions. The LCMS and WELS have adopted a quia subscription, which means that we believe the Book of Concord to be a faithful exposition of the faith because it is drawn from the Holy Scriptures, whereas the ELCA has a quatenus subscription, which means that they subscribe to the Confessions insofar as they agree with scripture. The problem with a quatenus subscription is that it doesn’t really mean anything. I can subscribe to the Koran or to Bhagavad Gita ‘insofar as’ it agrees with Holy Scripture.

At first glance, it doesn’t seem to be a huge difference, however it has led to many problems between our church bodies. Because the ELCA does not bind itself to the confessional documents, they have been able to adopt such policies as open communion, ordaining female (and soon gay) clergy, denying scriptural inerrancy, etc.

WELS and the LCMS were actually in full fellowship up until the mid-60’s, but because of the WELS unit-concept they decided it would be better not to have fellowship with us anymore.