The "Ask a Lutheran" Thread!

[jessep28]

This is slowly becoming an issue in WELS as well.

A google search for “church growth movement” will reveal the pitfalls inherent in the approach.

Yep.

In the LCMS, we have Ablaze!(r)™(c) whose mission it is to by 2017 to start 2,000 new congregations. Something tells me that quality control is to some degree taking a back seat.

 

[PJM]

=Nominefili-This is because not all churches who grew out of the Reformation believe in Scriptural Inerrancy as a doctrine. I find it somewhat ironic, considering the fact that the sola scriptura was the primary catalyst for the Reformation to begin with. If a church doesn’t accept that or the Lutheran Confesssions as they were originally intended, there is no reason for them to remain Lutheran. But that isn’t really for me to judge.

Am I understanding you correctly that Luther accepted the Catholic Bible “In Total” as the Inspired Word of God, amd made no changes to it?

If not, why not? It seems logial that 2 Tim. 3: 16 affirms the Bibles Content and Truth or there is no confirmation?

A ‘synod’ in its traditional understanding is a collection of independent congregations to organize and regulate those congregations and allow for some level of consistency in doctrine and practice. However, in each of the American Lutheran synods, the congregation holds about 90% of the power in making such decisions. Often the only recourse is for the synod to remove a congregation, leading to various splits upon theological lines.

Fair program as far as democracy in action goes. But How does [even] the Holy Spirit affirm and confirm the decisions of 90% of the Congregation?

I don’t really understand the question. I don’t remember ever stating that the Gospels were more important than the Epistles. However, I will say that I personally view the direct, firsthand accounts of our Lord’s birth, ministry, suffering, death, and resurrection, to have no equal or parallel among scripture. It is this which a man must believe to inherit eternal life.

Here is the source of the question.

The Gospel and Holy Scripture (Material and Formal Principles)

We believe, teach and confess that the Gospel of the gracious justification of the sinner through faith in Jesus Christ is not only the chief doctrine of Holy Scripture and a basic presupposition for the interpretation of Scripture, but is the heart and center of our Christian faith and theology (material principle). We also believe, teach, and confess that only “the Word of God shall establish articles of faith” (SA, II, ii, ), and that “the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments are the only rule and norm according to which all doctrines and teachers alike must be appraised and judged”

Luke 17:19 - “Your faith has made you well.”
Matthew 8:

Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

There are many instances throughout the Gospels where people are healed by their faith. Disease is a symptom of sin, which is why, as Isaiah prophesied, Jesus came and ‘took on our infirmities and carried our diseases.’ Take for instance the woman who grabbed the end of Jesus’ cloak. It was her faith that drove her to believe that she would be healed, and so it came to be.

Thanks ! This is first explaination given that at least has a scriptual basis.

How does this position not contradict the following verses. If the bible is true, then one should find no contradictory evidence of the position held.

Mt. 16: 15:19, Mt. 19:17, John 3:5, John 3:36, and James Chapter 2: [14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. [24] **You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. **

God Will Judge each on his deeds. 1Pet.1: [17] “And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile”

And John 20:19:23, 1 Jn. 1: 8-10 and 1 Jn. 5:15-18 as but a few examples.

This is a very long discussion that has come up elsewhere on the board. It suffiices to say that there were questions about their canonicity. But Luther’s bible included those books. It wasn’t until much later (19th century) that they were removed. Here is the LCMS answer:

Love and prayers Pat

 

[Nominefili]

Am I understanding you correctly that Luther accepted the Catholic Bible “In Total” as the Inspired Word of God, amd made no changes to it?

No, Luther did not believe the Apocryphal texts to be inspired. However, he taught that they were valuable for historical information and for the enrichment of the Christian’s theological knowledge.

If not, why not? It seems logial that 2 Tim. 3: 16 affirms the Bibles Content and Truth or there is no confirmation?

Luther had no issue with 2 Tim. 3:16. In fact, Scriptural Inerrancy is what largely what led to the doctrine of sola scriptura. However, one can believe that all scripture is God-breathed and still not accept Tobit and Maccabees if Tobit and Maccabees are not actually scripture.

It may help to note that no Lutheran church body, as far as I know, has a set canon. We have thoroughly evaluated each of the texts in our current Bibles and believe them to be scripture, as they conform to the various tenets that the church has historically used to determine canonicity (apostolic authorship, widespread usage, theological consistency, etc.) The ‘apocrypha’ as some call it, does not meet these requirements, in our estimation. The Vatican disagrees, and thus we have fewer books in our Bible than the Catholic church does.

Fair program as far as democracy in action goes. But How does [even] the Holy Spirit affirm and confirm the decisions of 90% of the Congregation?

We believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding each congregation in God’s truth, much the same way that the Holy Spirit guides the Vatican. We pray and invoke God before congregational meetings, asking for His blessing, that He might send His Holy Spirit to guide our decisions.

How does this position not contradict the following verses. If the bible is true, then one should find no contradictory evidence of the position held.

Firstly, with regard to ‘contradiction’, the answer we usually give is that the Bible does not contradict itself, but that doesn’t mean we understand it.

That having been said, let’s talk about the famous James text. It’s important to note that when James says ‘faith without works is dead,’ he uses Abraham as an example. That’s interesting because the ‘work’ that Abraham did wasn’t actually sacrificing his son (obviously, because Isaac lived) but rather he was obedient to God. Why was he obedient? Because he had faith that God would lead him in the right direction and so he obeyed, even if it meant sacrificing his son. And therefore his “faith was credited to him as righteousness.”(Gen. 15:6)

I think the biggest confusion here comes from the disconnect between Lutheran and Catholic theology. Lutherans tend to distort Catholic teaching by claiming that Catholics can ‘work their way to heaven’ while Catholics distort Lutheran teaching by claiming that we offer ‘cheap, lazy grace.’ The fact is that neither of these characterisations are helpful or accurate.

Lutherans do believe in sola gratia, sola fide. The ‘Lutheranism’ is to say that justification is ‘by grace, through faith’ in Jesus Christ. The Catholic teaching is that justification is by faith with works. But the truth is, any Lutheran pastor will tell you that we believe faith will be shown through works. If I see someone in my congregation who never lifts a finger for anyone and treats everyone around them terribly, I will wonder about their faith. I will talk to them and counsel them. Even Luther said, as I’m sure you’ve seen in people’s signatures, that, “There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

We do believe that one’s faith in Christ will bring a person to do good works in His name. But we believe that the power to do those works comes not from ourselves, but from Him who died on the cross. And the work itself is not where justification comes from; someone can be saved without doing works. However, we do assume that those who know the peace and joy of Christ will demonstrate that peace and faith in their actions. By the grace of Christ, we are freed to do good works, serving God and serving the neighbor.

I hope that helps at least a little bit in seeing where we’re coming from.

 

[Nominefili]

I don’t like it a bit, but if there is Invocation, Confession and Absolution, reading of the Word,* proper* administration of the sacraments, then it can be done (and the Confessions say so). But in the end, we are not American evangelical Protestants, we are Lutheran (evangelical Catholic), and I’d prefer we worship like it.

We have some of the most beautiful liturgical music of any communion, why would we give that up for a praise band? :hypno:

Jon

 

[PJM]

=Nominefili;5902735]No, Luther did not believe the Apocryphal texts to be inspired. However, he taught that they were valuable for historical information and for the enrichment of the Christian’s theological knowledge.

Luther had no issue with 2 Tim. 3:16. In fact, Scriptural Inerrancy is what largely what led to the doctrine of sola scriptura. However, one can believe that all scripture is God-breathed and still not accept Tobit and Maccabees if Tobit and Maccabees are not actually scripture.

It may help to note that no Lutheran church body, as far as I know, has a set canon. We have thoroughly evaluated each of the texts in our current Bibles and believe them to be scripture, as they conform to the various tenets that the church has historically used to determine canonicity (apostolic authorship, widespread usage, theological consistency, etc.) The ‘apocrypha’ as some call it, does not meet these requirements, in our estimation. The Vatican disagrees, and thus we have fewer books in our Bible than the Catholic church does.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding each congregation in God’s truth, much the same way that the Holy Spirit guides the Vatican. We pray and invoke God before congregational meetings, asking for His blessing, that He might send His Holy Spirit to guide our decisions.

Firstly, with regard to ‘contradiction’, the answer we usually give is that the Bible does not contradict itself, but that doesn’t mean we understand it.

That having been said, let’s talk about the famous James text. It’s important to note that when James says ‘faith without works is dead,’ he uses Abraham as an example. That’s interesting because the ‘work’ that Abraham did wasn’t actually sacrificing his son (obviously, because Isaac lived) but rather he was obedient to God. Why was he obedient? Because he had faith that God would lead him in the right direction and so he obeyed, even if it meant sacrificing his son. And therefore his “faith was credited to him as righteousness.”(Gen. 15:6)

I think the biggest confusion here comes from the disconnect between Lutheran and Catholic theology. Lutherans tend to distort Catholic teaching by claiming that Catholics can ‘work their way to heaven’ while Catholics distort Lutheran teaching by claiming that we offer ‘cheap, lazy grace.’ The fact is that neither of these characterisations are helpful or accurate.

Lutherans do believe in sola gratia, sola fide. The ‘Lutheranism’ is to say that justification is ‘by grace, through faith’ in Jesus Christ. The Catholic teaching is that justification is by faith with works. But the truth is, any Lutheran pastor will tell you that we believe faith will be shown through works. If I see someone in my congregation who never lifts a finger for anyone and treats everyone around them terribly, I will wonder about their faith. I will talk to them and counsel them. Even Luther said, as I’m sure you’ve seen in people’s signatures, that, “There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

We do believe that one’s faith in Christ will bring a person to do good works in His name. But we believe that the power to do those works comes not from ourselves, but from Him who died on the cross. And the work itself is not where justification comes from; someone can be saved without doing works. However, we do assume that those who know the peace and joy of Christ will demonstrate that peace and faith in their actions. By the grace of Christ, we are freed to do good works, serving God and serving the neighbor.

I hope that helps at least a little bit in seeing where we’re coming from.

My dear friend,

Sincere Thanks and God’s Blessings.

Your reply were thought provoking and candid. I appreciate both! I now know a bit more than I did before out Lutherans

Pat

 

[Nominefili]

My dear friend,

Sincere Thanks and God’s Blessings.

Your reply were thought provoking and candid. I appreciate both! I now know a bit more than I did before out Lutherans

Pat

Glad I could help!

Feel free to post back if you have any more questions.

 

[Lutheranteach]

The message of the church should not change, but if any church wants to continue to reach people how it delivers it’s message will have to. This is not a new thing. Martin Luther turned and faced the congregation. He eventually said the “mass” in the language of the people not latin. He wrote some of his hymns to music familiar to people. This is not a new trend. I like the more traditional services as well, but I understand the need to change. Ideally, both styles are available.

 

[Nominefili]

The message of the church should not change, but if any church wants to continue to reach people how it delivers it’s message will have to. This is not a new thing. Martin Luther turned and faced the congregation. He eventually said the “mass” in the language of the people not latin. He wrote some of his hymns to music familiar to people. This is not a new trend. I like the more traditional services as well, but I understand the need to change. Ideally, both styles are available.

I agree. My biggest complaint with ‘contemporary’ worship does not come from the music style necessarily but rather for the theology therein. Also, I find that congregants have trouble following some of the complicated rhythms that more modern music has, and I would personally rather see everyone participating in ‘boring’ music than having just the choir sing something upbeat.

 

[AJTheMan]

This is a good thread. How do you view Buddhism? What about Buddhists?

I ask honestly.

 

[Nominefili]

This is a good thread. How do you view Buddhism? What about Buddhists?

I ask honestly.

To be frank, I don’t know enough about Buddhism to say much. I have known one man who is Buddhist who was very nice and peaceful. However, there is no salvation outside of Christ Jesus. You should attend a Lutheran service sometime.

 

[AJTheMan]

To be frank, I don’t know enough about Buddhism to say much. I have known one man who is Buddhist who was very nice and peaceful. However, there is no salvation outside of Christ Jesus. You should attend a Lutheran service sometime.

I have, actually. I’m not sure if it varies from congregation to congregation but the Lutheran Church that I attended (only twice ) was by far the warmest, most welcoming congregation that I have attended.

I know what you mean, though, about not knowing enough about Buddhism. It’s a minority religion in the United States so it’s understandable.

 

[Montalo]

am sorry if this is viewed as brinign up a dead topic, however

What goes on during a Lutheran church service?

 

[IowaJay]

am sorry if this is viewed as brinign up a dead topic, however

What goes on during a Lutheran church service?

Basically the same order of things as at a Catholic mass.

• There is a gathering, usually marked by a hymn of praise and the invocation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There will often be a brief order of confession and foregiveness toward the beginning of the service as well.
• The appointed lectionary readings for the day - many Lutherans use the Revised Common Lectionary, which is very similar to the Catholic lectionary.
• The sermon and the hymn of the day, which should connect to the Gospel and the sermon.
• The Nicene or Apostles’ Creed.
• Prayers of the church.
• Offering.
• Communion. (Many Lutheran churches are now reclaiming the tradition of weekly communion - the reformers believed in it, but somewhere along the way, it became less and less frequent, until the last generation or so).
• Post-communion liturgy, closing hymn, benediction, and sending.

A Catholic should be able to following along easily with the service, from things like saying “and also with you” following “The Lord be with you”, to the communion liturgy, which includes the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God).

Some Lutheran churches have adopted a contemporary service format and have abandoned the liturgy, but most still follow that basic order.

 

[JonNC]

am sorry if this is viewed as brinign up a dead topic, however
What goes on during a Lutheran church service?

Just to expand on what Iowajay said, you can go to this website and hear the divine service, part by part.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=15582

Jon

 

[joe370]

I’m an LCMS seminary student on track for ordination. I have always had an interest in Roman Catholicism though. I was enrolled in RCIA for a few months when I was in college but when we got to discussions about the papacy and Tradition I knew it wasn’t for me. Maybe it’s because I was brought up Lutheran. Either way, I think both church bodies serve Christ, baptizing and bringing the Gospel to the sinful and hopeless.

Hey Nom…I, once upon a time, belonged to the holy cross Lutheran church. I too had a problem with Papal authority/tradition until I started reading my bible and employing reason, instead of just taking my Pastors word for it. Every non-Catholic church defers to the bible as their exclusive authority, and in turn proceed to teach authoritatively. Seems a bit hypocritical don’t you think? If authority is to be an issue in the Catholic church then surely the same should apply to every non-Catholic church? Every non-Catholic church has magisters (teachers). Why is that, if in fact the bible is suppose to be my exclusive authority?

As far as the tradition issue, if not for the holy spirit, I would probably still be where you are today, which is a good thing if you feel that you are truly home. Jesus promised that the holy spirit would be with His church, guiding his church, until the end of time, and that the gates of hell would never defeat the church to which He is the head and savior, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat. To trust Jesus’ church is to trust the holy spirit; it became, just that simple for me, and very biblical. The key was to find the church built by Jesus, on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, as opposed to the myriad churches built by men, on the protestant reformation, and that was quite effortless.

It is the power of the holy spirit that makes the tradition of Jesus’ church a living tradition. If I can trust that holy spirit protected sacred scripture for 400 years before it was finally put under one cover in 397 AD at the Council of Carthage, then I can trust that the holy spirit protected sacred tradition as well, for those 400 years. The question is: can I continue to trust that the holy spirit will continue to guide Jesus’ established church into all truth, by protecting the deposit of faith, until the end of time? John answers that question:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

 

[JonNC]

Joe, I just feel moved to respond to some of the things you’ve said here.

=joe370;5922248]Hey Nom…I, once upon a time, belonged to the holy cross Lutheran church. I too had a problem with Papal authority/tradition until I started reading my bible and employing reason, instead of just taking my Pastors word for it.

This sounds a bit condescending, though I doubt you meant it that way. More importantly, if taking the “pastor’s word for it” was what you were taught in a Lutheran Church, I daresay you were poorly chatechized. Lutheranism is confessional, and by definition, does not rely on the local pastor’s word for it. In fact, that local pastor is bound by the Lutheran Confessions. His personal interpretation is irrelevent at best, and can lead to his removal from Lutheran minstry at worst.

Every non-Catholic church defers to the bible as their exclusive authority,

Not sure what you mean be exclusive authority. Please explain.
Lutherans accept scripture as the final norm.

If authority is to be an issue in the Catholic church then surely the same should apply to every non-Catholic church? Every non-Catholic church has magisters (teachers). Why is that, if in fact the bible is suppose to be my exclusive authority?

Again, this seems to reveal a lack of understanding of Lutheranism. Lutherans do not exclude teachers and teachings. We have, after all the Lutheran Confessions, the early councils and creeds, and ECF’s that we rely on. Scripture is the final norm for these things. I often quote Martin Chemnitz when this apparant misunderstanding of sola scriptura comes up.

This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.

As far as the tradition issue, if not for the holy spirit, I would probably still be where you are today, which is a good thing if you feel that you are truly home.

You appear to exclude the possiblilty that the Holy Spirit has not called or guided Nom into Lutheran seminary. If true, that seems a bit presumptuous. Until the day he dad, my dad knew he was called by the Holy Spirit to be a Lutheran pastor.

Jesus promised that the holy spirit would be with His church, guiding his church, until the end of time, and that the gates of hell would never defeat the church to which He is the head and savior, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat. To trust Jesus’ church is to trust the holy spirit; it became, just that simple for me, and very biblical. The key was to find the church built by Jesus, on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, as opposed to the myriad churches built by men, on the protestant reformation, and that was quite effortless.

I am thankful you have been led to the Catholic Church, and pray you are as blessed by it as I have been in the Lutheran communion, your triumphalist view notwithsatnding. I’d be curious to know if you believe Holy Orthodoxy to be “built by men”.

Jon

 

[Lutheranteach]

If you are Catholic and I put a blindfold on you and took you to a Lutheran Church service, you probably wouldn’t know you weren’t at Mass until the last five minutes or so.

 

[JonNC]

If you are Catholic and I put a blindfold on you and took you to a Lutheran Church service, you probably wouldn’t know you weren’t at Mass until the last five minutes or so.

Actually, I think the first tip off would be the lack of a request that Mary pray for us in the order of public confession, but your point is well taken. In fact, I’ve heard some traditionalist Catholics complain that Novus Ordo sounds too much like our divine service.

Jon

 

[Graubo3]

If you are Catholic and I put a blindfold on you and took you to a Lutheran Church service, you probably wouldn’t know you weren’t at Mass until the last five minutes or so.

I would be trying to smell the incense from the previous Mass.

Peace, Graubo

 

[gcnuss]

I would be trying to smell the incense from the previous Mass.

Peace, Graubo

I have been in Lutheran churches where incense is used, so you might not be in the clear in such a place.