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linusmom
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Since it sounds like the ALCC is very nearly Catholic, what is it that makes it Lutheran?
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BerhaneSelassie
Guest
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_Saints_(Lutheran Is this seriously the ECLA’s Calendar of Saints? Some i understand, and was surprised by since some are Post Reformation Catholics… But the ones I wanted to laugh at were like May 24. Nicolaus Copernicus! Then Dec 19: Adam, patriarch, and Eve, matriarch (Commemoration) W – LCMS…what? Then Harriet Tubman, 1913; Sojourner Truth, 1883; renewers of society…they were nice people sure, but their down feast day?
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IAGladfelter
Guest
Becahse of their theology (especially their eschatology) the ELCA (along with most other Lutherans and the Anglicans as well) have no method for the canonization of saints. The ELCA’s list, as you note is as political (on the liberal side) as it is theological (perhaps more so.)
As an aside, in our (ALCC) case, we only recognize the feast days of those beatified and canonized by the Catholic Church.
Blessings,
Irl
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Since it sounds like the ALCC is very nearly Catholic, what is it that makes it Lutheran?
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
Another Lutheran here (just joined)…
I was active in and studied Catholicism for about 5 years - and still hold such in every high esteem. But I disagreed on some points - and felt the need to make my exist. I officially became Lutheran about two years ago, being Confirmed in The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (one of my Catholic teachers came to my Confirmation).
I HOPE to partcipate in some threads, I guess this is the forum to do that. Not with the desire to convince or convert (I feel the need for neither here) but to extend mutual understanding.
Pax
- Josiah
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
.
MY humble, fallible, personal replies…
BTW, the “merger” of the LCA and ALC back in 1988 was always shaky. A lot of those ALC congregations were quite conservative. They have been tested frequently, this just the last.
In my Lutheran congregation, probably half of the members are former Catholics (myself not included - I was never officially Catholic, just active there). And so on the subject of Mary, we can seem a bit more Catholic on that. My own pastor embraces the PVM for example. But this is just not a part of Lutheranism. It’s not that there would typically be an objection, however. It would depend on how all this “cranked” out.
Luther is seem as a mere mortal, LOL.
Perhaps others already conveyed all these thoughts, but I hope that helps a bit.
Pax
MY humble, fallible, personal replies…
Doctrinally, too little to mention. The primary difference is “fellowship” - a difficult praxis concern. WELS and ELCA are pretty much at the poles here, this has LONG been a difficult and sometimes divisive issue in the LCMS which in theory is closer (but not identical) with WELS but in practice, is pretty much all over the map. It’s an area where the LCMS has simply never really resolved.
I’m surprised and saddened by what ELCA did on that, but from what I understand, little “fall out” is expected. A few congregations (including some large and significant ones) have voiced their disappointment and some parachurch organizations have sprung up - to which these congregations seem to be affiliating. But whether those will one day become a denomination of any size or significance - that’s still an unknown. I dobut it. A FEW congregations may join LCMS but I doubt more than a very few; most ELCA churches are very committed to women’s ordination and the LCMS stand is, for them, a “deal breaker.”
BTW, the “merger” of the LCA and ALC back in 1988 was always shaky. A lot of those ALC congregations were quite conservative. They have been tested frequently, this just the last.
Luther and generally the Lutheran church fathers were passionate in their Mariology. They also tended to embrace the views we connect with Mary as true. However, with the exception of Mary - the Mother of God and of course Mary as a virgin at the conception and birth of our Lord, these are not regarded as dogmas.
In my Lutheran congregation, probably half of the members are former Catholics (myself not included - I was never officially Catholic, just active there). And so on the subject of Mary, we can seem a bit more Catholic on that. My own pastor embraces the PVM for example. But this is just not a part of Lutheranism. It’s not that there would typically be an objection, however. It would depend on how all this “cranked” out.
They aren’t.
- Sometimes Lutherans rail against “man-made teachings” (other Protestant groups are more vocal about this too). Since Lutherans believe revelation was closed when the canon of scripture was put together (at least that’s what I was taught in LCMS catechism), how are the teachings of Martin Luther, a man, justified (pun intended
)?
Luther is seem as a mere mortal, LOL.
Perhaps others already conveyed all these thoughts, but I hope that helps a bit.
Pax
- Josiah
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
Long time, no see…
It’s important to keep clearly in mind that Luther is not regarded as authoritative by Lutherans. He was a mere mortal, a sinful and fallible man, as accountable as anyone. We may view him as a profound theologian and excellent Bible scholar - but that’s it.
Lutherans are generally aware of some remarkable snippets still floating around about views on Jews, etc. It should be recalled that Luther wrote a lot, and was very often written about. This was in a day when things were the antithesis of political correctness, and long before anyone was hyper-sensitive to how one might get quoted (or misquoted). Even 500 years later, in the midst of political correctness gone silly, a political figure or other public person will make a comment that we all probably find shocking.
Pax
- Josiah
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IAGladfelter
Guest
The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) is more than “almost” Catholic. Our faith and order, worship, and spirituality are one with that of the Catholic Church across the board. The ALCC has petitioned to enter in whichever form the Holy Father feels to be the most appropriate. Note that applicable portions of Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) and Cardinal Kasper’s Hanbook on S;pritual Ecumenism state that a Church which seeks entry into the Catholic Church must first be fully Catholic. The ALCC is in compliance with that, and are longing for - praying for the cay when we can legally just call ourselves Roman Catholics.
The only vestiges of Lutheranism the ALCC considers worth keeping at all are cultural - art, music, and aspects of Germanic and Scandanavian ambiance/non-religious culture (which, by the way are shared with German and Scandanavian Catholics.) One very small example is the use of red candles instead of purple and pink ones on the advent wreath prior to Christmas Eve. We like Oktoberfest and (German) Christmas Markets, German Chorales (when the lyrics are fully Catholic), the music of Bach, Classical Music (tilted toward the North German Baroque - Bach et. al., the art of Albrecht Durer and Grunewald et. al. (which are part of the common Germanic pan-Christian heritage, etc. You get the picture.
So how can the ALCC call itself Lutheran? First of all, it is an offshoot - a very quiet, low keyed schism from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod back in 1997.
Second, while each Lutheran Church / Synod makes its own decision as to what makes a Church “Lutheran,” there is no criteria which is agreed upon across the entire spectum of Lutheranism except acceptance of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession (UAC) to at least some degree, no matter how small. That acceptance may be quia (because) it is a “trustworthy witness to the gospel,” or it can be quatena (insofar as) it is a “trustworthy witness to the gospel” no matter how small that witness may be. For example, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods (LCMS and WELS) accept the UAC on a quia basis. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America accepts it on a quatena basis, rejecting portions that do not fit with its theological and cultural liberalism. The ALCC accepts it on a quatena basis, rejecting those portions which to not agree with the Catholic Magesterium (and frankly much of it does.) As noted upthread, the ALCC’s position on Lutheran teachings is the same as Johann Eck’s position on Martin Luther’s teachings.
Other documents within the Book of Concord (1580) may or may not be accepted, and if so can be accepted either on a quia or quatena basis. For example the Church of Sweden never accepted the Book of Concord’s document, “The Formula of Concord” (considered to be Lutheranism’s “Declaration of Independence,” because of its closeness to elements of Calvinist Reformed (in the U.S. that is Presbyterian / Congregationalist, etc.) theology and the fact that Melancthon consulted with John Calvin in its preparation, and Calvin actually accepted that document. (The ALCC completely rejects that document for the same reason as does the Church of Sweden.) The ALCC accepts the other documents in the Book of Concord on a quatena basis: insofar as they agree with the Catholic Magisterium. (Sometimes there is agreement, more often there is not, and the further one goes in the Book of Concord the less agreement there is with the Magesterium and the more the ALCC officially rejects accordingly.
In any case, the ALCC is considered to be a Church in the Lutheran spectrum - albeit the most Catholic of them, and is listed as a Lutheran Church on almost all lists of Lutheran Churches on the internet (The most comprehensive in the U.S. is ELCA PAstor Steven Tibbits site “Pastor Zip’s U.S. Lutheran Web links” at 禁组词和部首-小学生成语接龙大全 . The ALCC is midway through the site under the heading, “Evangelical Catholics.”
There is no one, world-wide Lutheran Church, per se. Nobody speaks for Lutheranism as a whole. It is a movement which includes Churches ranging from almost Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant Churches like the Lutheran Brethren Church, across the spectrum to almost Eastern Orthodox Churches like the Churches of Finland and Estonia, and almost Roman Catholic Churches like the Church of Sweden and the ALCC, conservative Churches like the LCMS, WELS, and ELS, and ultra liberal Churches like the ELCA, the Evangelical Churches of Germany, and many, many others.
Remember that unlike Calvlin and Henry VIII / Thomas Cranmer, Martin Luther did not choose to leave the Roman Catholic Church - he was kicked out involuntarily, considering that a tragedy he never got over.
Also, keep in mind what Gettysburg Theological Seminary (ELCA Lutheran) Professor Abden Wentz wrote of Lutheranism as a third form of Western Christianity separate from and in addition to both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism in these words: “‘Lutheran’ is a very inadequate name to give to a movement that is not limited to a person or an era, but is as ecumenical and abiding as Christianity itself.”
Hope this helps.
Blessings,
Irl
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gcnuss
Guest
It would be good to note that there is a difference between a “Commemoration” and a feast day (or “Lesser Festival,” in the ELCA’s terminology). In that long list, the persons and events listed as lesser festivals is fairly short and shouldn’t shock any good Catholic – with the possible exception of Reformation Day. Look at the list –
January 1 – The Name of Jesus
January 18 – The Confession of St. Peter
January 25 – The Conversion of St. Paul
February 2 – The Presentation of Our Lord
February 24 – St. Matthias, Apostle
March 25 – The Annunciation of Our Lord
April 25 – St. Mark, Evangelist
May 1 – St. Philip and St. James, Apostles
May 31 – The Visitation
etc.
Commemorations, on the other hand, are simply remembrances of the lives of people who have, in some way, demonstrated great faith in their lives and who can serve as examples of faith to us. That some of these are Catholic saints shouldn’t be surprising – they are part of the great history of the Church and their lives are worthy of emulation.
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crowtherkidsmom
Guest
Both Lutheran Congregations that I have attended have read out of the NIV.
Jamie
In the process of finding out more about RCIA and RCIC
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IowaJay
Guest
ELCA congregations usually use either the NRSV and NIV, with some still having Today’s English Version still in the pews (The “Good News” Bible). It is my understanding that many in the LCMS are moving toward the ESV.Both Lutheran Congregations that I have attended have read out of the NIV.
Jamie
In the process of finding out more about RCIA and RCIC
The new ELCA study study bible uses the NRSV, and the new LCMS study bible uses the ESV.
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Caramel
Guest
I think that one of the problems (well, at least one of the problems I have) with attempting to study the Lutheran church is that everytime I google something I end up with at least twenty or thirty Lutheran “churches,” “synods,” etc. I can’t find anything about “The Lutheran Church” itself. Is there such a thing? I can’t seem to find anything about it. Do individual “synods” teach their own beliefs? Is official Lutheran dogma and doctrine accepeted as such by the various Lutheran churches? It there official Lutheran dogma and doctrine?
I’ve actually sent an email to one of the Lutheran websites but I haven’t received a reply yet. And that’s OK because it was just yesterday and I know they must get tons of questions.
I’m just really confused. What exactly IS the Lutheran Church?
The Lutheran symbols are in the Book of Concord, the Lutheran confessions.
www.bookofconcord.org
One of the things about the Lutheran faith is that its polity is not as hierarchical as that of Rome. This is both a blessing and curse, in my mind, and lately I’m leaning to more of a curse. Part of it is nationalistic, and cultural. Even Lutheran synods in America came from different cultural and national origins.
There is the Lutheran World Federation, but that is more an assembly of independent Lutheran bodies than anything approaching the Catholic hierarchy. I’d say it is more of a confederation.
But my final thought would be to look to the Lutheran Confessions as the defintiion of Lutheranism. And while the range of adherance varies, it is the Augsburg Confession, and The Small Catechism that virtually all true, confessional Lutherans subscribe to.
Jon
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Caramel
Guest
Thank you very much!! It is confusing, but then I have seen churches which call themselves “Catholic” and they are really groups which have splintered off after Vatican II and I have to look at them carefully to see if they are really Catholic. And they aren’t. I think anybody can start a church under any name and a person can easily become confused, especially when that person doesn’t know what the real (Lutheran or Catholic) Church teaches. I’m sure this happens in Lutheran churches, too, and probably in every single faith and religion in the world. I’m always searching for the Truth and it becomes difficult sometimes.
Again, thanks so much!!
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Mrs_Mac
Guest
I have a question for the Lutherans. (I am glad I found this thread!)
My brother-in-law, an LCMS pastor, recently left his congregation to accept a call in another state. His former church is struggling and does not presently have a pastor. I just learned that they have been having communion with the elder or a layperson performing the consecration. They also have a local non-denominational (or perhaps Baptist, I’m not sure) self-described “retired pastor” coming in on occasion to give the sermon.
Are either of these acceptable?
Thank you very much for any responses.
Mrs. Mac
My brother-in-law, an LCMS pastor, recently left his congregation to accept a call in another state. His former church is struggling and does not presently have a pastor. I just learned that they have been having communion with the elder or a layperson performing the consecration. They also have a local non-denominational (or perhaps Baptist, I’m not sure) self-described “retired pastor” coming in on occasion to give the sermon.
Are either of these acceptable?
Thank you very much for any responses.
Mrs. Mac
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AmericanJosiah
Guest
- To the easier question, no, it is NOT permissible to have a preacher deliver the homily who is not so authorized by the denomination.
- To the consecration issue, I don’t have enough information. NORMALLY, this is limited to rostered clergy, but there are rare exceptions. Deacons, for example, often have special authority from the Bishop (District President in the LCMS) to do “Word and Sacrament” ministry - ie, under the supervision of a pastor, they have preach and administer The Holy Eucharist. In a very, very, very extreme situation - this might be extended to some other lay person, too - but a simple vacancy would not qualify, I strongly suspect.
- I’d be VERY careful of gossip here, but IF it is true that someone non-authorized is doing Word and Sacrament ministry in that place, it should be brought to the attention of the Bishop (District President) and the Circuit Counselor. Your brother-in-law would be well aware of the rubric here, and IF what you describe IS the case, you may be 100% sure he immediately did as I here suggest.
Pax
- Josiah
The Augsburg Confession says: "*Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called. *"
I, personally. would not attend, much less commune, under the circumstances you have described.
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Mrs_Mac
Guest
AmericanJosiah and Jon NC, thank you both for taking the time to respond.
I really do feel for this struggling congregation because they seem to have allowed themselves to be cast adrift since my sister and BIL left. My BIL knows all about the non-Lutheran guest homilist but I do not believe he has contacted the District President.
I assume he has reasons of his own.
Unfortunately, the people who do not want to attend or commune under the present circumstances are voting with their feet. If this church makes it, they may possibly become a satellite congregation of another area LCMS. Either that or I suspect that they will cease to be Lutheran.
Thank you for providing this valuable information.
I really do feel for this struggling congregation because they seem to have allowed themselves to be cast adrift since my sister and BIL left. My BIL knows all about the non-Lutheran guest homilist but I do not believe he has contacted the District President.
I assume he has reasons of his own.
Unfortunately, the people who do not want to attend or commune under the present circumstances are voting with their feet. If this church makes it, they may possibly become a satellite congregation of another area LCMS. Either that or I suspect that they will cease to be Lutheran.
Thank you for providing this valuable information.
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mark_a
Guest
Back to the op, I have a question:
Is there open hostility (anamosity or emnity or whatever term you wish to describe) between the different local branches of Lutherans, say MS and WS and ELCA?
As a comparison, I know there is much hostility between PCA and PCUSA Presbyterians.
Thanks!
Is there open hostility (anamosity or emnity or whatever term you wish to describe) between the different local branches of Lutherans, say MS and WS and ELCA?
As a comparison, I know there is much hostility between PCA and PCUSA Presbyterians.
Thanks!
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