The "Ask a Lutheran" Thread!

[qui_est_ce]

Yet the Catholic Church and the Popes all through the centuries did preach the Gospel of Christ. Some were better at it than others, it is true. Martin Luther and others were wrong, Biblically speaking, in stating that the Pope is the antichrist. It is a ridiculous, defamatory, and scandalous charge.

It’s been 500 years. Let’s forgive Martin Luther for his transgressions. Lutherans don’t hold Martin Luther up as a role model like the Muslims do Mohammad. They follow his interpretations of Scriptures, which closely parallel those of the Catholic Church. Indeed Luther was a very learned man. He was right to condemn many practices perpetuated by those in authority in the Catholic Church. There are many Catholic saints who were ill-tempered and arrogant. St Jerome is one.

Of all the topics in CAF non-Catholic section, I always find the Lutherans to be the most respectful and informative.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

I believe LCMS and Catholics are a lot closer than LCMS will admit.

The Lutheran Confession and Rome are closer than either sides admits.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

This is beautifully and wonderfully put!

Awesome!

How I wish we could be one.

I believe LCMS and Catholics are a lot closer than LCMS will admit.

… I’ve always felt it was the other way around, lol

My departure from Catholicism was not pleasent. Before I left, I had a long and good discussion with my priest - whom I love, respect and had gotten to know a bit. I spoke of my struggles, but also of my profound love and respect for the Church, and of the ways it had deeply changed me. I spoke of all my studies - under teachers he very much appreciates and affirms, some of which he knew about. I said that I felt pretty confident in saying that I agree with 95% of what I was taught, and the rest I would not call “heresy” or “unbiblical/untraditonal” but simply things I am not embracing as they are taught. He smiled and said (I think this is a direct quote), “That’s a whole lot better than most Catholics. Come to think of it, it’s probably better than a whole lots of priests”. I don’t know about the last part, but I agree with the first.

My continuing journey quickly lead me to Lutheranism. It’s a long story, but that doesn’t come “out of the blue” - I have some “roots” there. I found that 95%. And the liturgy, the Sacraments, a strong pro-life stance, and more. But I found an ecclesiology and epistemology that I strongly embraced rather than was very uncomfortable with. I found The Theology of the Cross that I - to my surprise, my pleasent surprise - artfully stated my soul. Ironically, I think Lutherans (in some ways) are a bit TOO much like Catholics - with a bit more cognative focus, a bit too little mystery for my liking. In SOME ways, when I’m talking with the Orthodox - well, I like a lot of the “heart” there. But some of my doctrinal issues of Catholicism are there, too. But, who knows? I PRAY that I’m always accountable, correctable, teachable, leadable. But for the past couple of years, I’m become increasingly “at home” in traditional, orthodox, conservative Lutheranism. Still with great esteem and appreciation for the Catholic Church.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[qui_est_ce]

My departure from Catholicism was not pleasent. Before I left, I had a long and good discussion with my priest - whom I love, respect and had gotten to know a bit. I spoke of my struggles, but also of my profound love and respect for the Church, and of the ways it had deeply changed me. I spoke of all my studies - under teachers he very much appreciates and affirms, some of which he knew about. I said that I felt pretty confident in saying that I agree with 95% of what I was taught, and the rest I would not call “heresy” or “unbiblical/untraditonal” but simply things I am not embracing as they are taught. He smiled and said (I think this is a direct quote), “That’s a whole lot better than most Catholics. Come to think of it, it’s probably better than a whole lots of priests”. I don’t know about the last part, but I agree with the first.

There’s a lot to be said for that. I think many Catholics call themselves “Catholic” but don’t follow the Church. I think Lutherans, and Protestants in general, choose their or reject their religion at some point in their lives, such as when moving and looking for a new church to attend.

My continuing journey quickly lead me to Lutheranism. It’s a long story, but that doesn’t come “out of the blue” - I have some “roots” there. I found that 95%. And the liturgy, the Sacraments, a strong pro-life stance, and more. But I found an ecclesiology and epistemology that I strongly embraced rather than was very uncomfortable with. I found The Theology of the Cross that I - to my surprise, my pleasent surprise - artfully stated my soul. Ironically, I think Lutherans (in some ways) are a bit TOO much like Catholics - with a bit more cognative focus, a bit too little mystery for my liking. In SOME ways, when I’m talking with the Orthodox - well, I like a lot of the “heart” there. But some of my doctrinal issues of Catholicism are there, too. But, who knows? I PRAY that I’m always accountable, correctable, teachable, leadable. ** But for the past couple of years, I’m become increasingly “at home” in traditional, orthodox, conservative Lutheranism. Still with great esteem and appreciation for the Catholic Church.**

Pax

• Josiah

.

I hope traditional orthodox conservative Lutheranism doesn’t go by the way, as most mainstream denominations have. It happened in the LCMS in the great split of the '70’s. Admittedly, I don’t have as much contact with them as I used to, but it seems they are going liberal, especially with the music. Without an Authority, this is what happens.

One congregation here now has it’s permanent quarters in a vacant Target store. I’ve never been in it, but the old church was a real church with stained glass windows and a steeple.

A lot of Lutherans here are fed up with the LCMS leadership which has been spending more than it takes in. Now LCMS wants to sell their flagship radio station KFUO FM to a Christian Praise and Worship music station. The whole affair was kept secret, and people were donating to keep the KFUO on air. It turns out the LCMS is financing the purchase, because the purchasing station is not in good financial standing. I hope the FCC blocks it. The local Catholic radio station, Covenant Radio, an affiliate of EWTN wants to buy KFUO, but they want too much money. I know EWTN and Catholic Media would support Covenant Radio if the price were reasonable.

 

[JonNC]

Yet the Catholic Church and the Popes all through the centuries did preach the Gospel of Christ. Some were better at it than others, it is true. Martin Luther and others were wrong, Biblically speaking, in stating that the Pope is the antichrist. It is a ridiculous, defamatory, and scandalous charge.

I think today the charge is certainly defamatory, and I made clear that considering the current run of popes beginning with John XXIII, to charge that they individually are the Anti-Christ is ridiculous.
I personally think it is ridiculous, defamatory, and scandalous that Luther is called a heretic, and Lutheran teaching is termed heretical. Are we willing to mutually drop the 500 year old polemical accusations against one another?

Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

I think today the charge is certainly defamatory, and I made clear that considering the current run of popes beginning with John XXIII, to charge that they individually are the Anti-Christ is ridiculous.
I personally think it is ridiculous, defamatory, and scandalous that Luther is called a heretic, and Lutheran teaching is termed heretical. Are we willing to mutually drop the 500 year old polemical accusations against one another?

Jon

YES!!

 

[JonNC]

YES!!

Me too, Christine. Think of how much easier and more successful dialogue would be.

Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

Me too, Christine. Think of how much easier and more successful dialogue would be.

Jon

As I wrote earlier, I find the Lutherans on these forums to be most respectful and open to dialogue without being push-overs. There was a thread here a few years ago whose topic was hateful things ML said. I thought it was mean spirited and sophomoric. Like a Jack Chick tract.

Unlike Fundamentalists, you know what your faith teaches and can defend it without resorting to bashing the Catholic Church. On a Baptist website, it seemed the only thing they agreed on was they hated the Catholic Church, that it was a “cult.” The religion seemed to be based on anything but Catholic. Of course, they won’t let Catholics join, so we can’t defend ourselves over there.

 

[jessep28]

A lot of Lutherans here are fed up with the LCMS leadership which has been spending more than it takes in.

Mention the words Kieschnick and “Ablaze!” and see what kind of reaction you get

 

[qui_est_ce]

Mention the words Kieschnick and “Ablaze!” and see what kind of reaction you get

Not familiar with Ablaze. Is there a problem with it?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hello Lutherans!

I had started a thread and asked a question which IowaJay was kind enough to stear me in the correct direction but wanted a different Lutheran to answer my follow up questions. The thread is found here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=422015

I will post IowaJay and I’s conversation here so it can be asnwered here:

Roman_Catholic:

Can someone provide me some reading, or simply educate me, on the Lutheran view of the Church? Do they believe in a visible aspect of Christ’s Church or just an invisible aspect made up of all believers? I am also curious how they define the term ‘catholic’ as used in the Nicene Creed.

IowaJay:

Article VII of the Augsburg Confession states that the church exists where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments are administered, so those are visible elements of the church, but there is also an invisible element because the gospel and the sacraments are not limited to any one particular church. This article from the LCMS website talks more about the distinction between the visible and invisible church:

Roman_Catholic:

Thank you IowaJay. That answers my question about the visible aspect according to the Lutherans, but I do have more questions (of course). Who makes up the visible aspect of the Church? Just where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments are administered? Does the Lutheran church have a view on which churches offer valid sacraments? Or is any Church which offers the two Lutheran sacraments (baptism and communion) part of the visible church despite any differences in their beliefs (ie would the baptist’s understanding of the two sacraments (which differ from the Lutherans) prevent them from being considered part of the visible church in Lutheran eyes?)

God bless you

No bait here. Not looking for a debate, just answers.

Thanks guys. God bless you

 

[IAGladfelter]

Hello Lutherans!

From a Missouri Synod (and Wisconsin Synod) perspective, there is the visible Church and the invisible Church. Nobody knows who is in the invisible Church. It is composed only of those who have saving faith. Nobody else is a member. There is **no way to tell for sure ** who is in the invisible Church based on their ethics, morals, theological knowledge, whether they are living a “good live” or whatever. Only God knows. Nobody else will know until Christ returns.

The visible Church is only a place in this world alone - in space and time - in this world only; and it is only a place wherein the gospel is preached “in its purity” and the (two) Sacraments “properly” administered. Any other place is not the visible Church.

There is actually a spectrum of teachings on the nature of the Church among various Synods (Churches) and in factions within the Synods ranging from almost Calvinist/Reformed to the same exact doctrine of the Church taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety (my own Church being one example of the latter.)

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[qui_est_ce]

There is actually a spectrum of teachings on the nature of the Church among various Synods (Churches) and in factions within the Synods ranging from almost Calvinist/Reformed to the same exact doctrine of the Church taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety (my own Church being one example of the latter.)

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Irl

If I were Lutheran, I would include my affiliation under religion. ECLA is just so different from LCMS, Anglo-Lutheran, and WELS. No way would I want to be associated with ECLA.

 

[IowaJay]

If I were Lutheran, I would include my affiliation under religion. ECLA is just so different from LCMS, Anglo-Lutheran, and WELS. No way would I want to be associated with ECLA.

I am a lifelong member of the ELCA (well, technically, I was born and raised in the ALC, one of the ELCA’s predecessor bodies before the merger in 1987). There are many issues with the ELCA, but I’m not inclined to give up on those ties nor abandon the many faithful Christians in the ELCA. If I leave the ELCA, it will not be to go to the LCMS, but to go to a church with orthodox beliefs with apostolic succession - because I will have concluded that Lutheranism, in any form, is no longer viable as a separate ecclesial entity.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

From a Missouri Synod (and Wisconsin Synod) perspective, there is the visible Church and the invisible Church. Nobody knows who is in the invisible Church. It is composed only of those who have saving faith. Nobody else is a member. There is **no way to tell for sure ** who is in the invisible Church based on their ethics, morals, theological knowledge, whether they are living a “good live” or whatever. Only God knows. Nobody else will know until Christ returns.

The visible Church is only a place in this world alone - in space and time - in this world only; and it is only a place wherein the gospel is preached “in its purity” and the (two) Sacraments “properly” administered. Any other place is not the visible Church.

There is actually a spectrum of teachings on the nature of the Church among various Synods (Churches) and in factions within the Synods ranging from almost Calvinist/Reformed to the same exact doctrine of the Church taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety (my own Church being one example of the latter.)

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Irl

Thank you IAG. Can you clarify this statement a bit for me?

The visible Church is only a place in this world alone - in space and time - in this world only; and it is only a place wherein the gospel is preached “in its purity” and the (two) Sacraments “properly” administered. Any other place is not the visible Church.

Specifically the sacraments being properly administered part? What does that entail to a Lutheran? For instance the Catholic Church considers Baptism valid in non-Catholic Churches so long as it is done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Is this the same for Lutherans? Or does a church’s belief of what happens with baptism play a part in whether or not it is properly administered? Also how about the Lutheran’s Sacrament of the Alter? What is considered to be properly administered in that area? Does what a church teach about it have any impact on it being properly administered? For instance would a Baptist Church’s teaching on communion prevent them from being considered apart of the visible to church to a Lutheran?

Thank you and God bless you

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am a lifelong member of the ELCA (well, technically, I was born and raised in the ALC, one of the ELCA’s predecessor bodies before the merger in 1987). There are many issues with the ELCA, but I’m not inclined to give up on those ties nor abandon the many faithful Christians in the ELCA. If I leave the ELCA, it will not be to go to the LCMS, but to go to a church with orthodox beliefs with apostolic succession - because I will have concluded that Lutheranism, in any form, is no longer viable as a separate ecclesial entity.

WOW! Could you elaborate?

 

[jessep28]

Not familiar with Ablaze. Is there a problem with it?

Abalze! is a movement in the LCMS to start 2,000 new congregations by 2017, the 500th anniversary of the start of the Reformation movement.

It has some of us traditionalists concerned that doctrinal and theological unity may be compromised in the name of church growth. This is a prime example of one such congregation. They’re supposedly Lutheran:

lakepointefamily.com/

 

[qui_est_ce]

Abalze! is a movement in the LCMS to start 2,000 new congregations by 2017, the 500th anniversary of the start of the Reformation movement.

It has some of us traditionalists concerned that doctrinal and theological unity may be compromised in the name of church growth. This is a prime example of one such congregation. They’re supposedly Lutheran:

lakepointefamily.com/

Well, it’s not my style… Reminds me of the mega non-denominational churches here that have theatre seats with cup holders.

It puts too much emphasis on ONE congregation, rather than the Lutheran Church as a whole. That’s another thing I like about being Catholic. You’re supposed to belong to your own local parish. Church membership shouldn’t be about the church building or the pastor. If you want to join another parish, you must get permission from the pastor of your parish. Not sure that’s really enforced (I moved out of my parish, but I still belong there). They do enforce the parish rule for the parochial schools. No sheep-stealing allowed!

 

[IowaJay]

WOW! Could you elaborate?

Somewhere along the line I read a book which said that there are two different kinds of Lutherans:

(1) Lutherans who compare themselves to the explorers and immigrants to the New World of America. Something was wrong with the Old World, so now they have forged ahead, built a new country, and have no desire to return or reunite with the Old World.
(2) Lutherans who compare themselves to exiles, such as the people of Israel during the Babylonian exile. They regret the expulsion from the homeland and long for a return home.

I have more of an exile mentality than an immigrant mentality. I’m not convinced that the homeland is correct in some of its assertions so I haven’t gone there, and instead, have concentrated my efforts on where I am, with the hope than maybe someday in the future, there will be some kind of a breakthrough. Things are starting to happen with the Anglicans, so maybe something will happen in my lifetime, maybe not. In the meantime, jumping from the ELCA to the LCMS, for example, doesn’t strike me as moving any closer to home - its just hopping on to a different lifeboat. I admire the LCMS for maintaining orthodoxy in certain areas, but I don’t totally agree with them either, so I might as well stay on my current lifeboat.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Somewhere along the line I read a book which said that there are two different kinds of Lutherans:

(1) Lutherans who compare themselves to the explorers and immigrants to the New World of America. Something was wrong with the Old World, so now they have forged ahead, built a new country, and have no desire to return or reunite with the Old World.
(2) Lutherans who compare themselves to exiles, such as the people of Israel during the Babylonian exile. They regret the expulsion from the homeland and long for a return home.

I have more of an exile mentality than an immigrant mentality. I’m not convinced that the homeland is correct in some of its assertions so I haven’t gone there, and instead, have concentrated my efforts on where I am, with the hope than maybe someday in the future, there will be some kind of a breakthrough. Things are starting to happen with the Anglicans, so maybe something will happen in my lifetime, maybe not. In the meantime, jumping from the ELCA to the LCMS, for example, doesn’t strike me as moving any closer to home - its just hopping on to a different lifeboat. I admire the LCMS for maintaining orthodoxy in certain areas, but I don’t totally agree with them either, so I might as well stay on my current lifeboat.

That’s an interesting observation.

I have serious issues with ELCA. We have a unity prayer service with the ECLA across the street every year. They have a woman pastor. They allow gays in “committed” relationships to serve; anybody who complains about that, I tell them it’s their “communion” that allows ordination for committed gays. I just would not be able to stomach this on a weekly basis.

The problem with the exiles is they have no authority. Even here, I see conservative Lutherans have no real unity. It’s as if you have a right to believe whatever you want. If you don’t like one congregation, you can just find one that meets your criteria.

I have heard of a Lutheran denomination that is almost Catholic. They are looking for union with Rome. It might be at the beginning of this thread.

God bless you on your journey.