The "Ask a Lutheran" Thread!

[Jerry_Parker]

Newbie,

**You wrote: ** Martin Luther was devoted to Mary, as evidenced in his writings. When and why did Lutherans abandon Marian devotion?​

From what I understand of the development of Luther’s thinking, as evinced in his earlier and later writings, early in his reforming work Luther still accepted Mary as our Blessèd Lay and intercessor with God, but in his later thinking and writings, having rejected the intercession of the saints generally, and prayers to/through them, he abandoned much of Marian piety. However, even though Dr. Martin Luther and other Lutherans ceased praying for Mary’s intercession, a veneration of Mary short of any hint of necromancy still was retained, including many of the Marian feasts in the Lutheran church calendar.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[gakroeger]

However, Lutherans have never held that one can pray to Mary or any other saint for intercession.

This is one point I never understood. Do Lutherans also not ask their living friends to pray for them?

If so, do they believe that Mary or the Saints are incapable of prayer or intercession?

I love Father Corapi’s love for Mary. He says Mary is his broker (as She should be for all Catholics) as an intercessor with Christ. “When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen; when Mary speaks, God listens”.

 

[JonNC]

=gakroeger;6564571]This is one point I never understood. Do Lutherans also not ask their living friends to pray for them?

Of course we do.

If so, do they believe that Mary or the Saints are incapable of prayer or intercession?

We absolutely believe that the Blessed Virgin and the saints are capable and indeed do pray for the Church Militant, but in a general way. What we don’t believe is that there is scriptural evidence that they can hear our individual requests for intercession.

I love Father Corapi’s love for Mary. He says Mary is his broker (as She should be for all Catholics) as an intercessor with Christ. “When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen; when Mary speaks, God listens”.

It is a very good idea that we pray that Christ hear and listen to the prayers of the Church Triumphant on our behalf.

Jon

 

[shark76z]

Here’s a good one:

Why did Luther believe that a sacrament needed a “visable element” to truly be a sacrament? He said a sacrament has to be: (from his Small Catechism)

1. instituted by God;
2. by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sin earned by Christ;
3. in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element.

 

[Lypher]

Resurrecting this thread because it seems to have engendered some profitable dialogue.

I have a question. If Martin Luther was correct in his arguments then why does the LCMS not abide by them. I do not see how they can say that some are correct and others are not?

Honestly I think if he were alive today he would be an orthodox, but not a Lutheran. I just think the views on, Mary, Contraception, Clergy, Lack of any confession, would cause him to go elsewhere.

What do you think?

God Bless You…

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Lypher,

**You wrote: ** I have a question. If Martin Luther was correct in his arguments then why does the LCMS not abide by them. I do not see how they can say that some are correct and others are not?​

Yours is a common misunderstanding on the part of non-Lutheran Christians. Lutherans and their synods supposedly adhere in some way to the Lutheran Confessions (i.e. the doctrinal standards that are included in the Book of Concord, only some of which are of Luther’s own personal authorship), not necessarily to Luther’s personal views. Luther changed his mind on some matters; at times his views were extreme; and there are other differences between what Luther taught and what Lutherans who take the Confessions seriously believe. Then there are differences in interpreting the Confessions. Then (as if this were not enough!) there are perversely “original” doctrinal speculations (such as the L.C.M.S. and W.E.L.S. heretical paradigm of “universal objective justification” and its corollary, “subjective justification”) which have little if any bearing on what the Confessions really have say.

So, noting that what Luther said/wrote, and then take note that the various Lutheran denominations and Synods differ, is not really remarkable and this does not invalidate Lutherans or compromise them, necessarily, though, indeed, it does in some instances.

The same principle applies to the Reformed/Presbyterians. They adhere officially, if they are seriously Confessional, to the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, and various other Reformed Confessions, not directly to every thought that Calvin expressed. Indeed, the great Reformer, Martin Bucer’s influence on the Confessions and forms of worship of Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, and the Reformed (and, to some extent, on Lutherans, too) is more normative for what Reformed Protestantism came to believe officially than what Calvin himself wrote.

I’m Catholic now, so all of this is not so important to me as it once was, but I certainly do know that being confused about these matters does hinder Catholic witness to Protestants and provoke useless arguments and wasted time.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[Lypher]

Lypher,

**You wrote: **I have a question. If Martin Luther was correct in his arguments then why does the LCMS not abide by them. I do not see how they can say that some are correct and others are not?​

Yours is a common misunderstanding on the part of non-Lutheran Christians. Lutherans and their synods supposedly adhere in some way to the Lutheran Confessions (i.e. the doctrinal standards that are included in the Book of Concord, only some of which are of Luther’s own personal authorship), not necessarily to Luther’s personal views. Luther changed his mind on some matters; at times his views were extreme; and there are other differences between what Luther taught and what Lutherans who take the Confessions seriously believe. Then there are differences in interpreting the Confessions. Then (as if this were not enough!) there are perversely “original” doctrinal speculations (such as the L.C.M.S. and W.E.L.S. heretical paradigm of “universal objective justification” and its corollary, “subjective justification”) which have little if any bearing on what the Confessions really have say.

So, noting that what Luther said/wrote, and then take note that the various Lutheran denominations and Synods differ, is not really remarkable and this does not invalidate Lutherans or compromise them, necessarily, though, indeed, it does in some instances.

The same principle applies to the Reformed/Presbyterians. They adhere officially, if they are seriously Confessional, to the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, and various other Reformed Confessions, not directly to every thought that Calvin expressed. Indeed, the great Reformer, Martin Bucer’s influence on the Confessions and forms of worship of Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, and the Reformed (and, to some extent, on Lutherans, too) is more normative for what Reformed Protestantism came to believe officially than what Calvin himself wrote.

I’m Catholic now, so all of this is not so important to me as it once was, but I certainly do know that being confused about these matters does hinder Catholic witness to Protestants and provoke useless arguments and wasted time.

Pax, Jerry Parker

Jerry,

I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me…

God Bless You…

 

[JonNC]

Jerry,

I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me…

God Bless You…

I was born, raised and confrmed LCA, and was told what the confessions say, particularly
the Small Catechism. So, in that way, I learned what Luther said that is supported by scripture.

While Jerry is on about something regarding Justification that I’m not hearing about, he is right that Lutherans are not held to Luther, but to scripture and the confessions.

While I wish God’s grace and blessing in your move to the Catholic Church, I’d be curious to learn what items were never taught to you.

Jon

 

[TriuneUnity]

Jerry,

I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me…

God Bless You…

As Jon said, we do not adhere strictly to what Luther believed. We adhere to what Luther believed that we hold to be of the essence of the Christian faith. Luther agreed to all but one (because it was written after his death) of the doctrinal statements contained in the Lutheran Confessions.

When it comes to other doctrines that Luther held to that are not contained in our confessions, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, that is a matter of individual conscience which the word of God does not bind us on.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Lypher, Jon, and Triune Unity:

**You wrote, variously: ** *I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me…

As Jon said, we do not adhere strictly to what Luther believed. We adhere to what Luther believed that we hold to be of the essence of the Christian faith. Luther agreed to all but one (because it was written after his death) of the doctrinal statements contained in the Lutheran Confessions.

When it comes to other doctrines that Luther held to that are not contained in our confessions, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, that is a matter of individual conscience which the word of God does not bind us on. *​

For whom said what, the reader can go back to the original postings. There really is not all that much difference between what you are saying about what constitutes Lutheranism, i.e. that Luther does not equal Lutheranism, for a variety of reasons.

Good luck to all of you in “swimming the Tiber” (or “crossing the Bosphorus”, which is another option for Lutherans with many of the same concerns), which, after long wranglings within myself, I did very recently in turning to the Roman Catholic Church.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[JonNC]

Lypher, Jon, and Triune Unity:

**You wrote, variously: ** *I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me…

As Jon said, we do not adhere strictly to what Luther believed. We adhere to what Luther believed that we hold to be of the essence of the Christian faith. Luther agreed to all but one (because it was written after his death) of the doctrinal statements contained in the Lutheran Confessions.

When it comes to other doctrines that Luther held to that are not contained in our confessions, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, that is a matter of individual conscience which the word of God does not bind us on. *​

For whom said what, the reader can go back to the original postings. There really is not all that much difference between what you are saying about what constitutes Lutheranism, i.e. that Luther does not equal Lutheranism, for a variety of reasons.

Good luck to all of you in “swimming the Tiber” (or “crossing the Bosphorus”, which is another option for Lutherans with many of the same concerns), which, after long wranglings within myself, I did very recently in turning to the Roman Catholic Church.

Pax, Jerry Parker

Thanks, Jerry. I sincerely pray the God’s Grace, through word and sacrament, will be with you in your new faith communion.

Jon

 

[Lypher]

Hi, Charlotte,

Lutheranism did not just spring up when Luther posted his 95 Theses. Lutheran belief shares its foundations with Catholicism. The early Lutherans (and those of us who have come after them) retained much that had been handed down over the previous 15 centuries – Holy Scripture, the three ecumenical creeds, the belief that Christ’s body and blood are truly present in the Eucharist, the liturgy of the Mass, etc. We believe as fervently as Catholics that Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation. We, too, study the Early Church Fathers as we attempt to know God and his will for us more fully.

Charlotte. Sounds like you believe in Tranditions?

God Bless You.

 

[Lypher]

Lypher, Jon, and Triune Unity:

**You wrote, variously: ***I was born, baptized and confirmed an LCMS… That being said they NEVER taught us what Martin Luther really believed and when I went back and started reading I realized that they Protested against the Protest… Anyway I have been in RCIA almost two years and will cross the Tiber as soon as the Bishop can get to me… *

As Jon said, we do not adhere strictly to what Luther believed. We adhere to what Luther believed that we hold to be of the essence of the Christian faith. Luther agreed to all but one (because it was written after his death) of the doctrinal statements contained in the Lutheran Confessions.

*When it comes to other doctrines that Luther held to that are not contained in our confessions, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, that is a matter of individual conscience which the word of God does not bind us on. *​

For whom said what, the reader can go back to the original postings. There really is not all that much difference between what you are saying about what constitutes Lutheranism, i.e. that Luther does not equal Lutheranism, for a variety of reasons.

Good luck to all of you in “swimming the Tiber” (or “crossing the Bosphorus”, which is another option for Lutherans with many of the same concerns), which, after long wranglings within myself, I did very recently in turning to the Roman Catholic Church.

Pax, Jerry Parker

Thanks Jerry,

I am still waiting to get confirmed. I have been in RCIA for about two years now, just can’t seem to get a Bishop when I need one… Hopefully I will be going to Italy soon and I should be able to find one there…

God Bless You…

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Lypher,

Thanks for the well-wishing in your message! Even with the liturgical decline and other problems that beset the Church since Vatican II’s faulty implementation and the 1970 revision of the liturgy, the Catholic Church (or Eastern Orthodoxy) is where the aspirations of a Lutheran really lead. The Lutheran, Anglican, and Presbyterian traditions were noble aspirations, as well as some legacy of cultural beauty (hymnody and choral music, for example), when they were not simply being viciously anti-Catholic, but there is no real reason for their very existence, much less for that of the of the narrow sects.

May you find a bishop to receive you, soon, whether in North America or in blessèd Italy!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[jessep28]

I don’t know if any fellow Lutherans can help me out here. I’ve been a member of my parish for over 10 years when I joined with my family. It’s a very large Lutheran church pushing 3,000 members. They’re very low church by standards and that is starting to bug me more and more.

Probably in the past few months, I’ve had a desire to move to a smaller, more high church parish. There are a couple in my area that I have in mind. My only reservation is that I feel like I’m abandoning a family by leaving what was my home church for so long.

I don’t know if anyone has been in a similar situation before and would be willing to provide some guidance. Thank you.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t know if any fellow Lutherans can help me out here. I’ve been a member of my parish for over 10 years when I joined with my family. It’s a very large Lutheran church pushing 3,000 members. They’re very low church by standards and that is starting to bug me more and more.

Probably in the past few months, I’ve had a desire to move to a smaller, more high church parish. There are a couple in my area that I have in mind. My only reservation is that I feel like I’m abandoning a family by leaving what was my home church for so long.

I don’t know if anyone has been in a similar situation before and would be willing to provide some guidance. Thank you.

jessep, yeah… What are you are experiencing is why I left the LCMS. The Missouri Synod is more and more transforming itself into a modern, bland, American Protestant church, unfortunately. This is due to initiatives passed by the powers that be, especially through the Ablaze! program.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t know if any fellow Lutherans can help me out here. I’ve been a member of my parish for over 10 years when I joined with my family. It’s a very large Lutheran church pushing 3,000 members. They’re very low church by standards and that is starting to bug me more and more.

Probably in the past few months, I’ve had a desire to move to a smaller, more high church parish. There are a couple in my area that I have in mind. My only reservation is that I feel like I’m abandoning a family by leaving what was my home church for so long.

I don’t know if anyone has been in a similar situation before and would be willing to provide some guidance. Thank you.

jess, I would maybe check out lambofgodlcms.org/ or zionwest.org/

 

[jessep28]

jessep, yeah… What are you are experiencing is why I left the LCMS. The Missouri Synod is more and more transforming itself into a modern, bland, American Protestant church, unfortunately. This is due to initiatives passed by the powers that be, especially through the Ablaze! program.

The two I’m considering are both LCMS congregations, so there would be no major adjustment.

One has been around since the mid 1800’s and the other is a missional congregation started in 2003. Both are by the book while the latter has a more “Romanish” liturgy with chanting, etc.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

jessep28,

Well, good luck in your endeavour to find an “high church” Lutheran parish. The problem, ultimately, with such matters in Lutheran and Anglican church circles is that any parish’s hold on its current “churchmanship” is rather precarious. It depends on the pastor who is or will be in place (who is able, usually, to wear down the resistance, to changes and innovations which he favours, on the part of the laity and of its lay parish leaders, whom he usually can circumvent with some exercise of ingenuity and intransigence) and on the district president, either (or both) of whom who may or may not tolerate “high church” practices, or who may become swept up in some pan-Protestant fad, doctrinal or liturgical (or, more like it, anti-liturgical), e.g. “contemorary” Christian music (rock), the corrupting spirit of “church growth”, or charismatic practices. A parish which seems appealing now can change completely in surprisingly short time or over the long run.

At least in a Roman or Eastern Catholic Church parish, there are permissable limits to such things. Priests and bishops who try to resist the accepted liturgy and its rubrics have to confront, eventually, what is normative and authoritative. That may take some time (frustratingly), but it is inevitable. Pope Benedict XVI is beginning to address worship abuses with the kind of clout that simply is lacking in Lutheranism or in Anglicanism and, hopefully, it will be he who is the pope who does not lose nerve to address abuses in worship as well as in doctrine.

Here is hoping that, like myself, your dissatisfactions and yearnings will lead you to Catholicism!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[jessep28]

jessep28,

Here is hoping that, like myself, your dissatisfactions and yearnings will lead you to Catholicism!

You know, the thought of swimming the Tiber crosses my mind every once in a while. But I think my dissatisfaction is more a form issue than substance .