the assumption of the Virgin Mary

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So, let me get this straight. some writings that had to do with the Assumption were banned but not to teaching itself?

You got it in one ​

 

[occupant]

occupant,

Can you provide any evidence that the Assumption was condemned? (I know you already provided that webpage, but it’s pretty long and I don’t feel like sifting through a lot of stuff.)

I don’t doubt that our Blessed Mother was Assumed. I’m catholic and don’t question it. i was asking because my uncle is trying to convert me.

in short, the link says that the idea of Our Lady being assumed came only in 590 with “Gregory of Tours in 590 A.D. But the basis for his teaching was not the tradition of the Church but his acceptance of an apocryphal Gospel known as the Transitus Beatae".
then the link says that the teaching didn’t come from the faithful, but from "heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church”. also, "History proves that when the Transitus teaching originated the Church regarded it as heresy. In 494 to 496 A.D. Pope Gelasius issued a decree… officially set forth the writings which were considered to be canonical and those which were apocryphal and were to be rejected. At the end of the decree he states that this and all the other listed literature is heretical and that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble.These facts prove that the early Church viewed the assumption teaching, not as a legitimate expression of the pious belief of the faithful but as a heresy worthy of condemnation". it ends “How can a Church which is supposedly infallible promote teachings which the early Church condemned as heretical? Whereas an early papal decree anathematized those who believed the teaching of an apocryphal Gospel, now papal decrees condemn those who disbelieve it. The conclusion has to be that teachings such as Mary’s assumption are the teachings and traditions of men, not the revelation of God.”

i admit, i don’t know much about this history that’s why i posted this thread. i pray that someone can help.

 

[FCEGM]

I don’t doubt that our Blessed Mother was Assumed. I’m catholic and don’t question it. i was asking because my uncle is trying to convert me.

in short, the link says that the idea of Our Lady being assumed came only in 590 with “Gregory of Tours in 590 A.D. But the basis for his teaching was not the tradition of the Church but his acceptance of an apocryphal Gospel known as the Transitus Beatae".
then the link says that the teaching didn’t come from the faithful, but from "heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church”. also, "History proves that when the Transitus teaching originated the Church regarded it as heresy. In 494 to 496 A.D. Pope Gelasius issued a decree… officially set forth the writings which were considered to be canonical and those which were apocryphal and were to be rejected. At the end of the decree he states that this and all the other listed literature is heretical and that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble.These facts prove that the early Church viewed the assumption teaching, not as a legitimate expression of the pious belief of the faithful but as a heresy worthy of condemnation". it ends “How can a Church which is supposedly infallible promote teachings which the early Church condemned as heretical? Whereas an early papal decree anathematized those who believed the teaching of an apocryphal Gospel, now papal decrees condemn those who disbelieve it. The conclusion has to be that teachings such as Mary’s assumption are the teachings and traditions of men, not the revelation of God.”

i admit, i don’t know much about this history that’s why i posted this thread. i pray that someone can help.

Webster makes the - ahem - assumption, that because a given text isn’t considered canonical by the Church that what the text contains is necessarily heretical in all or in part. These articles might be of help to you:

catholic-legate.com/articles/immacconcept.html

catholic-legate.com/articles/trueassumption.html

 

[mark_a]

Why would Dr. Luther have assumed she isn’t?

Is this a trick question??

I think anyone with even the least little bit of sense would *pre-*sume Jesus has his mother with him, but since its not even implicit in scripture. . . .

 

[st_lucy]

Mary is not in heaven. She was not assumed. This is a figment of Pius X11’s very fertile imagination. The bible tells us that there are three named people in heaven. These are Enoch, Elisha, and Moses. There are also the souls raised at the time of Jesus resurrection.There is no reason to beleive that Mary was assumed into heaven and certainly no reason to beleive the beleif or non-beleif in this so-called doctrine has anything to do with your salvation. John3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Doesn’t say anything here about beleiving that Mary was assumed into heaven.

Are you saying that our Lord would not take His mother home with Him? Or are you saying that Mary was not good enough to get to heaven?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I agree. But where does the Bible contradict the Blessed Virgin’s assumption? I know it isn’t explicit, but that isn’t the same as contrary.

Soul sleep is a difficult concept for me in light of the appearance of Moses and Elijah at Christ’s transfiguration.

Jon

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

Here are a few scriptures that deal with the state of the dead. They tell us that man does not go to heaven when he dies, but he goes into the grave. You are right that Moses and Elijah were taken to heaven. There is also Enoch. Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. And the souls that were raised after Jesus resurrection. But for the rest the bible is quite clear. The new testament calls death a sleep something like 54 times. Jesus himself calls death sleep.

John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

In the garden of Eden God said Gen2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan said Gen3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve beleived Satan instead of God and man has been beleiving Satan’s lie ever since.

I don’t know about you but I choose to beleive God.

 

[mark_a]

John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

What does this have to do with milking ducks?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi all,

Seems like I missed most of the action here.

So just to clarify, are you recanting your earlier statement that it was “a figment of Pius XII’s very fertile imagination”?

I probably misspoke giving the impression that I thought the idea of the assumption originated with PiusX11 when what I was trying to convey was that he made this doctrine ex cathedra and therefore binding under pain of sin and a threat to salvation which I find no hint of in the bible.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Peter,

occupant,

Can you provide any evidence that the Assumption was condemned? (I know you already provided that webpage, but it’s pretty long and I don’t feel like sifting through a lot of stuff.)

That’s my question.

Has anyone actually investigated this claim (the alleged condemnation) on it’s own merits? I don’t have the time to dig right now but I would actually like to know more about it.

If the specifics could be highlighted it would be a big help.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What does this have to do with milking ducks?

What does milking ducks have to do with the assumption?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Are you saying that our Lord would not take His mother home with Him? Or are you saying that Mary was not good enough to get to heaven?

I certainly beleive that Mary will one day be in heaven, but I do not beleive that she is there now.

 

[JonNC]

=mark a;5182421]Is this a trick question??

I thought yours was.

I think anyone with even the least little bit of sense would *pre-*sume Jesus has his mother with him, but since its not even implicit in scripture. . .

Hmm. I thought that it was fairly ex-plicit that people who die in a state of Grace go to heaven. And the Blessed Virgin Mary was definitely full of grace.

Jon

 

[Cluny]

I probably misspoke giving the impression that I thought the idea of the assumption originated with PiusX11 when what I was trying to convey was that he made this doctrine ex cathedra and therefore binding under pain of sin and a threat to salvation which I find no hint of in the bible.

Tell me where you find “personal savior” in the Bible.

Where do you find the formula “accept Christ” in the Bible?

Where are altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

 

[mark_a]

I thought yours was.

Hmm. I thought that it was fairly ex-plicit that people who die in a state of Grace go to heaven. And the Blessed Virgin Mary was definitely full of grace.

Jon

This is turning into bizarro world. . . .

But where does the bible state that Mary was full of grace when she died??

 

[jam070406]

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

Here are a few scriptures that deal with the state of the dead. They tell us that man does not go to heaven when he dies, but he goes into the grave. You are right that Moses and Elijah were taken to heaven. There is also Enoch. Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. And the souls that were raised after Jesus resurrection. But for the rest the bible is quite clear. The new testament calls death a sleep something like 54 times. Jesus himself calls death sleep.

John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

In the garden of Eden God said Gen2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan said Gen3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve beleived Satan instead of God and man has been beleiving Satan’s lie ever since.

I don’t know about you but I choose to beleive God.

I notice most of your quotes are from the Old Testament.
These are all quotes (even the NT you mentioned) before Jesus died and decended to hades to release the righteous that resided there till the gates of Heaven were opened by Christ.

Also, the book of revelation speaks of martyrs in Heaven.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up.

 

[jam070406]

I certainly beleive that Mary will one day be in heaven, but I do not beleive that she is there now.

Where is she?

 

[occupant]

ha. man.
what did i start?

 

[Good_Fella]

… believing something contrary to what the bible says is dangerous at best.

Then pay attention to what the Bible tells you:
*
“the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”*
1 Timothy 3, 15

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[st_lucy]

Then pay attention to what the Bible tells you:
*
“the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”*
1 Timothy 3, 15

Pax Christu :harp:

And as St John said not everything is in the bible. St John 21:25

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I notice most of your quotes are from the Old Testament.
These are all quotes (even the NT you mentioned) before Jesus died and decended to hades to release the righteous that resided there till the gates of Heaven were opened by Christ.

Also, the book of revelation speaks of martyrs in Heaven.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

Ok, hear are those sciptures from the OT again. Are you saying that these scriptures are wrong. Are you saying that you beleive that those who died in Christ before He came went to the same place that the wicked, to writh in torment, sometimes for hundreds or thousands of years until Jesus came to get them? Doesn’t sound fair to me. Doesn’t sound like something a God who “is love” 1Jn4:8 would do.

As for your quote from Revelation. You will notice in verse 9 that the souls were under the altar, that doesn’t sound like heaven to me. The book of Rev. is mostly a symbolic book and should not be taken literally. This is a referance to the OT practice of pouring the blood of the sacrifice on the ground under the altar. Ex29:12And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar. These were under the altar to symbolize that they were slain (sacrificed) for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You will notice that the white robes (righteousness of Jesus won for them on the cross) is promised to them, but that they should rest under the altar (in the grave) untill their bretheren are slain. This tells me that the dragon (Satan) is not through with his evil work of martyring the saints of God.