the assumption of the Virgin Mary

[elvisman]

I’ve covered this in previous posts. Ifyour so inclined you can go back and read them there. I see no reason to go over well trod gound. Except for this because it is so important.

Can you at least direct me to your posts? I’ve read pages and can’t find where you explain your position on this. Humor me.

I have actually covered this in several posts, but it bears repeating. Jn6:53 says:Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Then jn6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Now your verse Jn1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And verse 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It’s so clear to me I don’t know why people can’t see it. What Jesus is saying is that we are to feast on His word. That His words are spirit and they are truth. Also consider 1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

As for The Bread of Life discourse being about the Eucharist – it is an obviously inescapable truth and you still haven’t shown where Jesus said we are to feast on His word and not his flesh. Where does it say that? None of your posts explain this.

**You can say over and over, **“It’s so clear to me I don’t know why people can’t see it!”
Provide PROOF. I have – you haven’t. People can’t see it because it’s just not there.

What do you think Jesus was saying in verse 63? Was he saying MY flesh profits nothing? If you believe that – then you’re not even a Christian. His flesh and blood profits everything for us - EVERYTHING. Without his death – we CANNOT be saved. He was saying that you cannot know the truth of the Eucharist unless it has been revealed to you by God. That’s why YOU don’t know, my angry friend.

John’s Gospel points to the fact that the Word was made flesh - not the other way around.

Consider1 Corinthians 11:27-29, St. Paul warns us:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”

Sounds pretty severe for a mere symbol . . .

 

[TAB39]

**Can you at least direct **me to your posts? I’ve read pages and can’t find where you explain your position on this. Humor me.

As for The Bread of Life discourse being about the Eucharist – it is an obviously inescapable truth and you still haven’t shown where Jesus said we are to feast on His word and not his flesh. Where does it say that? None of your posts explain this.

**You can say over and over, **“It’s so clear to me I don’t know why people can’t see it!”
Provide PROOF. I have – you haven’t. People can’t see it because it’s just not there.

What do you think Jesus was saying in verse 63? Was he saying MY flesh profits nothing? If you believe that – then you’re not even a Christian. His flesh and blood profits everything for us - EVERYTHING. Without his death – we CANNOT be saved. He was saying that you cannot know the truth of the Eucharist unless it has been revealed to you by God. That’s why YOU don’t know, my angry friend.

John’s Gospel points to the fact that the Word was made flesh - not the other way around.

Consider1 Corinthians 11:27-29, St. Paul warns us:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”

Sounds pretty severe for a mere symbol . . .

I must agree.

 

[Louie1983]

Same here!

 

[Peter_J]

ProvidePROOF

Be careful asking for proof – people might think you sound like an atheist.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This thread has digressed to smug self righteousness and name calling. All dialog and a sincere searching for the truth seem to have been abandoned. I’ve run into this before. I’m not sure why, but Catholics seem to become defensive when confronted with the truth and begin to throw out personal attacks and insults. So, as a result I am instructed by scripture to no longer participate.
Matt7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I will continue on other threads because that is what Christ insructs me to do.
Matt:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I invite anyone who has a sincere interest in dialog **in the spirit of Christ **to join in.
If you cannot do that then don’t bother.

 

[elvisman]

This thread has digressed to smug self righteousness and name calling. All dialog and a sincere searching for the truth seem to have been abandoned. I’ve run into this before. I’m not sure why, but Catholics seem to become defensive when confronted with the truth and begin to throw out personal attacks and insults. So, as a result I am instructed by scripture to no longer participate.
Matt7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I will continue on other threads because that is what Christ insructs me to do.
Matt:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I invite anyone who has a sincere interest in dialog **in the spirit of Christ **to join in.
If you cannot do that then don’t bother.

In other words, you can’t come back with anything of substance.
The truth is very difficult to refute.

Well - see on the forums.

PS - I never engaged in smugness or name-calling. Scripture also hase something to say about lying about people:
Exodus 20:16
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

[Des]

All dialog and a sincere searching for the truth seem to have been abandoned.

Are you sure that’s what you were doing Richard cause I have my doubts.

 

[Cluny]

All dialog and a sincere searching for the truth seem to have been abandoned.

If you were sincerely searching for the truth, Richard, you would have recognized that you have been given sound doctrine.

But you rejected it.

 

[occupant]

i’m thinking richard is a troll.
if he is not, i don’t think he has read his statements because he would see serious error. or he is just sticking his head in the sand.

i’m going with troll though.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
All dialog and a sincere searching for the truth seem to have been abandoned.

Hi Richard,

At the risk of “jumping on the bandwagon”, I’m inclined to agree with Des. It seems to me that there have been people on both sides of this thread (including you) who have been more interested in pressing their views onto others, than in “dialog and a sincere searching for the truth”.

 

[YADA]

It’s so clear to me I don’t know why people can’t see it. What Jesus is saying is that we are to feast on His word. That His words are spirit and they are truth.

Clear to you - as you interpreted Scripture … As you have made the Truth …

Really though … Jesus left a Church not a collection of words … not Bible … Jesus sent people to preach the Good news of salvation … he did not send authors to write books or letters … the written “word” [New Testament] comes forth from the Church - from the Tradition. The New Testament is a gift of the organizational church that spoke and taught with authority …

It is not for each and every individual believer to write, preach, teach or interpret for themselves what is Truth …

 

[Good_Fella]

Be careful asking for proof – people might think you sound like an atheist.

Or simply a rationalist.

 

[Peter_J]

BTW, in case anyone was confused by my little joke, I was refering to the discussion over at the Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II thread.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t beleive Christ founded the Catholic church the way it is today. To much heresy.

I hope you will post your thoughts about this over in the Apologetics thread.

He is talking about His church. not the Catholic church.

Are you saying that Catholics are not part of Christ’s Church?

is is what I am talking about. Paul never sets up the office of bishop as one to be followed and certainly not to be reverenced. He is to be a servant of the body of Christ. By the way 1Tim3 says that a bishop must be married.

Paul did set up the bishopric, and commanded that bishops be reverenced. It is true that, if a married man cannot manage his own household, he will do a poor job in the house of God. However he did not require marriage, or he would have disqualified both himself, and Timothy!

**

These are some rather arrogant statements. **

I find it fascinating that, when Catholics share what the Church has taught, they are arrogant, but any Tom, Richard or Harry can come along and claim they are authorized by the bible to teach the bible, and that isnot arrogant.

Richard_Kastner:

You have me at a disadvantage. I’m afraid that I don’t know who this Ignatius is, but I seriously doubt that he was a disciple of John’s, if as you say he taught that Christ was present in the eucharist. If he was he must have splintered away from the true church because John never taught this kind of blasphemy.

I think you will do well to correct your disadvantage to read the early fathers. I also strongly recommend Irenaeus. In his writings you will find something about whether the Church ever taught the Real PResence.

The bible not only gives me the authority but the responsibility to speak up against anti-biblical teachings However I agree that we cannot do this on our own we must do everything in conjunction with the Spirit of God. 1Cor2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Authority can only come from Authority. The Scripture, Holy though it is, cannot weild authority for the very fact you mention. Scripture is not able to take responsibility, which is part of having authority. Authority belongs to persons. So, what you have done is inbue into yourself your own appointment to authority, which you have derived from your understanding of scriptures. This is a common practice among those separated from the Apostolic teaching. Each one does what is right in his own eyes.

This is probably the must unbeleivably arrogant thing I have ever seen posted on this forum and I have seen some beauts. To say that the God who created the universe would be encumbered by the so-called magesterial authority of the Catholic church to give His word to His Curch is mind bogaling.

I agree, God did not have to work through the Magesterium of the Catholic Church to create the Bible. He could have had it drop from the sky whole and entire. However, he chose to do it that way. Just like He chose to empty Himself, becoming a man, so He chooses to work through fallible men to create that which is inerrant.

What do you mean by “cutting yourself severely short.” Jesus said in John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. If I can find eternal life by searching the scriptures that testify of Jesus what else matters.

You are missing His whole point, Richard. Jesus is criticizing them because they believe they will find salvation in the scriptures. Instead, He tells them, salvation is found in Himself, but they are refusing to come to Him that they may have Life. The Scriptures pointe and testify to Jesus, but they cannot provide the salvation that is only found in Him.

What a strange question. I’m assuming they are in her grave. You know I never did understand the Catholic churches necrophilia.

Could you please explain this? I am not sure what you Catholic Teaching is referred to here. I can’t find anything on necrophilia.

 

[guanophore]

There may be, but if the assumption is an example of that truth I’m not interested. The bible has everything in it that I need to gain eternal life. Again, How am I cutting myself short?

John 5:38-41
8 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. 39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

You are misunderstanding the Source of eternal life. The bible does NOT have everything in it you need to gain eternal life. You are making the same mistake that the scribes and pharisees made. They searched the scriptures, thinking that in them they would find eternal life. Int he process, they missed the Person to whom those scriptures pointed. Eternal life is not found in the Sacred Writings, However Holy, but in Jesus.

No I’m not kidding. Jesus Himself tells us exactly what He is talking about John6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What He means is that this is a Divine Mystery (the REal PResence) that cannot be understood by the carnal mind. The only way we can apprehend it is to accept His words in faith, as the Apostles did.

How do I make Jesus a liar or impotent against Satan? Jesus here is not establishing the Catholic church or any denomination. He is establishing His church on Himself The Rock of Ages. See post #88

Why do you think Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter?

What is a “denomination”? Do you think the early church was not Catholic?

I disagree. I beleive and the bible shows that the Spirit is given to all men

Is this a case of you reading into scripture what you want to see?

**Acts 5:32
32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
**

Scripture is clear that not everyone has the Spirit.

I agree that Christ didn’t found His church in the 16th century. But because Protestants and Catholics beleive the lie of the assumption doesn’t make it true. Where do you find the assumption in scripture? I certainly have not seperated myself from the body of Christ and I do beleive that the Spirit of God dwells in me.

I believe you. What you have done is separate yourself from the beliefs and teachings of the Apostles. One of those areas you are separated is that everything that pertains to the faith is found in Scripture.

Those who preach the gosple deserve honor for the word they preach not for their (office) Anyone can preach the gosple.

No, Richard. They are to be honored for both, and not everyone can preach Christ’s gospel. Anyone can start to preach, but that does not mean they are preaching the Truth.

.
Eph4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

,
Why do you think Jesus gave these ministries to the Church if everything you need is in the bible?

 

[Good_Fella]

How do I make Jesus a liar or impotent against Satan? Jesus here is not establishing the Catholic church or any denomination. He is establishing His church on Himself The Rock of Ages.

How? By suggesting that the gates of hell did eventually prevail against the Church in spite of our Lord’s assurance. If you think that Jesus commissioned Martin Luther and the early reformers to rescue the church that was established in our Lord, you contradict yourself. But the truth is, Jesus established his one universal Church on the* foundation* of Peter and the Apostles with our Lord being the cornerstone. Jesus gave Peter and the Apostles a share in his ministry and infallible teaching authority by sending the Paraclete. This divine office has been transferred from the apostles to their valid successors in the episcopacy ad finitum by the laying on of hands. Both terms, foundation and * office*, denote apostolic succession. The valid and authentic teaching authority of the Church did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Our Lord willed that his Church be shepherded until he returns. It’s absolutely impossible that the Magisterium could have committed a heresy by defining and declaring the Assumption a dogma - no less than the Holy Trinity or Hypostatic Union in Christ.

“of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God.”
Colossians 1, 25

Paul is among the first to have succeeded the Twelve Apostles, having been ordained by one of them. And he transferred the teaching authority that was conferred on him in his office or stewardship to Timothy by the laying on of hands (ordination).
*
This saying is trustworthy, whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.*
1 Timothy 3, 1

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,* built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus himself the capstone***.
Ephesians 2, 20

The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21, 14

I believe and the Bible shows that the Spirit is given to all men:

1Cor12: 7
Eph4:11-13

The charism of infallibilty and the ability to declare what is a revealed divine truth have not been conferred on individuals in a private capacity. Not even the pope or an individual bishop apart from the entire college of bishops in communion with the pontiff are able to define and declare infallibly what has been divinely revealed to the Church in this station. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli each believed that they were “given the Spirit” to declare what is the divine truth, but they all went separate ways with their own peculiar doctrines and scattered Christ’s flock as bogus stewards and shepherds. Christ sent the Paraclete to preserve the purity and unity of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic faith. Our Lord sent the Spirit of truth so that we could know with a certainty of faith what God has ordained and willed to reveal. We would surely be uncertain of Mary’s Assumption if Jesus never promised to send the Helper and Advocate to his apostles in their divine office.

I agree that Christ didn’t found His church in the 16th century. But because Protestants and Catholics beleive the lie of the assumption doesn’t make it true. Where do you find the assumption in scripture? I certainly have not seperated myself from the body of Christ and I do believe that the Spirit of God dwells in me.

Neither did Christ abandon his Church in the 16th century. The Catholic Church is still One and Apostolic.

The fact that some Protestants believe in the Assumption shows that Protestantism is plagued with an uncertainty of faith. There could be no germ of doubt if the Paraclete were present in this religious movement. Fortunately, there are many Protestants who approach the Scriptures with a keener spiritual sense.

The Scriptures are silent on the Assumption only to Christians like yourself who approach the written word in a purely literal and historical sense. The Spirit of God does not dwell in any person who presumes in a private station that he has been invested with the authority and ability to declare the dogma of the Assumption false on the basis of how he interprets the Scriptures. This in itself is “unbiblical”.

“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation.”
2 Peter 1, 20

Those who preach the gospel deserve honor for the word they preach not for their (office). Anyone can preach the gospel.

Any private individual can pervert the Gospel, too.

PAX :harp:

 

[guanophore]

Actually I do have such a promise. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This promise was made to the Apostles. It does not apply to those who are not in unity with them, and the successors they ordained.

Jn6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

My position is that Jesus is talking about feasting on THE WORD

Yes, this is a common misconception. However, since the NT did not exist at that time, it hardly seems to make sense. Most people who interpret it this way have no idea where the Bible came from.

Jn6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
What Jesus is telling us is that the flesh or the spirit of the world profits us nothing, but His words lead us to eternal life.

His words are eternal life, indeed, but to interpret His words the way you do would also mean that His flesh profits nothing, and I think we will agree that He gave His flesh for the life of the world, so that must not be what He means by it.

He means that one cannot understand the mysteries of God through the rational mind, but only as it is revealed in the Spirit.

Doesn’t this passage pretty much say the same thing as Jn6:63

Yes, but just because something is spiritual in essence, rather than material, that does not mean it is not literal (actual reality). He gave us His Body and Blood, not symbolic or figurative, but His Real Presence.

 

[guanophore]

I would only look there because it’s all I need to find eternal life. 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Why would I look anywere else?

The passage is saying that eternal life is not found in the Scriptures, but in Jesus, to whom the Scriptures testify. Jesus embodied Himself in the Church. The scriptures lead one to Christ, in His One Body, the Church. If they do not, then you are not understanding Him correctly.

This is a uniquely Catholic teaching and is unsubstatiated in the bible

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

Not only that, it is a teaching unique to all the churches founded by the Apostles, those in union with the bishop of Rome,and those that are not. The Real Prescence is found in al of them because they all held fast to what was taught to them by the Apostles.

This is true. It’s just that that flesh and blood is not the eucharist. It’s THE WORD

Don’t you ever wonder why Jesus was so weak and feeble that He was unable to guide the Church in this? How is it that all of those taught directly by the Apostles believed in the Real Presence? Do you think our Lord was asleep from that time, until Modern American Fundamentalism?

Ok, I misspoke again. What I meant to say is that the genesis of this doctrine is with the CC. Cluny is going to yell at me.

No, Richard, the genesis of this doctrine is Jesus, and He taught it before the birth of the Church. The Church was born out of His side, in blood and water, just as Eve was born out of the side of the First Adam. He taught this prior to His crucifixion. I will grant you, though, the Apostles did not understand it until the Last Supper, when He actually gave them His Body and Blood.

CAF is here to correct these kinds of misunderstandings. I hope that can be done without yelling at you!

That is true, but it comes from the CC. And without the “insertions of transubstatiation” it wouldn’t be the same doctrine. Would it?

Yes, it is the same. Although only the Latin Rite characterizes it with this language, all of the Apostolic Churches espouse the same doctrine.

This is also true it’s just that that flesh is not the so called eucharist. It’s THE WORD OF GOD

So, do you think Jesus gave a scroll of the Scripture on the cross, instead of He Real Flesh?

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And the WORD was made FLESH.

John 6:51
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Yes, and He gave that flesh for the life of the world. He gives it to us in eucharist.

This is also true. He tells us in v. 63 exactly what He is talking about Jn6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Yes, and God revealed this to Peter. Peter did not understand with the carnal mind, but accepted what Jesus taught in faith, knowing that He had the words of eternal life.

You seem to be minimizing it's importance because as you say it's "simply symbolic". Matt13:  34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Jesus seemed to think that speaking symboliclly was pretty important. But you seem to think that the CC teaches that Jesus is not talking symbolicly here. You need to explain that to me, if you would, because I don't get it.

He revealed everything to the Apostles without the symbolic language. He revealed to them the meaning of Body and Blood during the Passover meal.

Mark 4:33-34

33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; 34 he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

The Apostles then explained everything to their successors, the bishops.

 

[guanophore]

Not to much, I make mistakes. You probably never do tho, huh? I do know nothing except what’s in God’s word. Of that I can be sure.

What is more serious is that your interpretations of God’s word are not consistent with what the writers beleived and taught.

So, accept it.

Indeed we do! We are not walking off muttering like the unbelievers:

John 6:52-67

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

64 But there are some of you that do not believe."

66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

Those who did not have faith, and could not accept his words literally stopped following Him. You have unwittingly aligned yourself with the non-beleivers.

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Jesus is here clearly telling us to DO THIS IN REMEMBRACE OF HIM.

Richard, you need a little study on the amanesis. During the Passover rememberance, the ritual recreated the origninal deliverance. A real flesh and blood lamb was slain, and eaten. This is what happens during a rememberance meal.

He certainly is not telling us to take a graven image (bread) to bow down before it. Wouldn’t that be in violation of the second commandment.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This is something that Jesus would not and did not do.

I agree. The bread is the work of human hands, just as the wine is fruit of the vine. They are not “graven images”, artwork intended to substitute for God. Jesus changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. Jesus did not create graven images. His presence passed into the elements.