The Assumption!

[JP_Marat]

Yep, So then to reconcile this with mat 27:56 and mark 15:40 you must the believe that there is another Mary that also called sons James and joses
ie mat 27:56 who is listed In parallel verse as Mary mother James the less and joses in mark 15:40

or do u say that this Mary is bvm and authors just decided to leave out the name of jesus from list of children.

Option 2 is a problem for you I think because then the brother is James the less ( which u have said it can’t be ie it’s really James the just)
if option 1 … I don’t know there are a lot of mary’s and James so maybe but seems a stretch - I note there are not as many joseseses

RESPONSE:

Yep. James the Less was the son of Alphaeus, **not the son of Joseph **as Eusebius tells us. Tradition has it that James the Less was martyred by crucifixion at Ostrakine in Lower Egypt, where he was preaching the Gospel. Hence he was not James the Just who was killed in Jerusalem (see Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jewish People, already cited).

The story that James the Just was relly James the Less was thought up by St Jerome who wanted to prove that Jesus didn’t have any brothers. But he failed.

Yep. Lots of Marys, Joses, and James. But the one of interests us here is Jesus’ brother James.

 

[NotWorthy]

RESPONSE:

Yep. James the Less was the son of Alphaeus, **not the son of Joseph **as Eusebius tells us. Tradition has it that James the Less was martyred by crucifixion at Ostrakine in Lower Egypt, where he was preaching the Gospel. Hence he was not James the Just who was killed in Jerusalem (see Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jewish People, already cited).

The story that James the Just was relly James the Less was thought up by St Jerome who wanted to prove that Jesus didn’t have any brothers. But he failed.

Yep. Lots of Marys, Joses, and James. But the one of interests us here is Jesus’ brother James.

Don’t Hippolytus and St. Justin Martyr have James, the Brother of our Lord, as an ex-Pharisee who was a cousin of Jesus’? I don’t know of any earlier writings that list him otherwise.

 

[panevino]

RESPONSE:

Yep. James the Less was the son of Alphaeus, **not the son of Joseph **as Eusebius tells us. Tradition has it that James the Less was martyred by crucifixion at Ostrakine in Lower Egypt, where he was preaching the Gospel. Hence he was not James the Just who was killed in Jerusalem (see Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jewish People, already cited).

The story that James the Just was relly James the Less was thought up by St Jerome who wanted to prove that Jesus didn’t have any brothers. But he failed.

Yep. Lots of Marys, Joses, and James. But the one of interests us here is Jesus’ brother James.

ok so"James the less" is the son of Alpaeus and as per Mark 15:40 this particular james has a brother called Joses and they both have a mother that is called Mary (mark 15:40)

that takes us back to only 3 James.

1. James the less brother of joses (same as James son of alphaeus ) whose mother is called Mary (but not BVM)
2. James son of zebedee brother of John
3. James brother of the lord

sorry JP Marat - please bear with me - I dont have magical trick here, i’m enjoying the investigation.

what do you say about
john 19:25 … now there stood by the cross of jesus his mother, and his mothers sister, Mary wife of Cleophas and Mary Magdalene.
when placed in parallel with
mark 15:40 there is mary magdalene, mary mother of james the less and joses and salome
mat 27:56 mary magdalene, mary mother of james and joses and mother of zebedee children

if james the less and joses are not children of BVM (which you agree with) but they are the children of another ‘Mary’, then who is the sister of BVM - is it mary wife of cleophas OR mother of zebedee children/or Salome?

do you agree that cleophus/alpheaus are the same guy? (apparently some say alphaeus is a kind of title alternative to the actual name cleophas)
do you agree that salome is the mother of the zebedee children? (amazingly some think here first name is mary too)

i know, i know its irrelevant because you say that the brother of jesus (james the just) has nothing to do with these two women… but please play it out for now.

 

[NotWorthy]

Don’t Hippolytus and St. Justin Martyr have James, the Brother of our Lord, as an ex-Pharisee who was a cousin of Jesus’? I don’t know of any earlier writings that list him otherwise.

Oops. Its Hegessipus.

*“James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church in conjunction with the Apostles. He has been universally called ‘the Just,’ from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb. He drank no wine or other intoxicating liquor, nor did he eat flesh’ no razor came upon; his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, nor make use of the bath. He alone was permitted to enter the Holy Place: for he did not wear any woolen garment, but fine linen only. He alone, I say, was wont to go into the Temple: and he used to be found kneeling on his knees, begging forgiveness for the people—so that the skin of his knees became horny like that of a camel’s, by reason of his constantly bending the knee in adoration to God, and begging forgiveness for the people. Therefore, in consequence of his pre-eminent justice, he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek ‘Defense of the People,’ and ‘Justice,’ in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him” *[fragments from Hegesippus’ *Five Books of Commentaries on the Acts of the Church, Ante-Nicene Fathers,

volume 8, page 762*. *Also see: Eusebius, Church History, 2.23.5 quoted in The Early Church Fathers volume I page 79].

 

[JP_Marat]

ok so"James the less" is the son of Alpaeus and as per Mark 15:40 this particular james has a brother called Joses and they both have a mother that is called Mary (mark 15:40)

that takes us back to only 3 James.

1. James the less brother of joses (same as James son of alphaeus ) whose mother is called Mary (but not BVM)
2. James son of zebedee brother of John
3. James brother of the lord

sorry JP Marat - please bear with me - I dont have magical trick here, i’m enjoying the investigation.

what do you say about
john 19:25 … now there stood by the cross of jesus his mother, and his mothers sister, Mary wife of Cleophas and Mary Magdalene.
when placed in parallel with
mark 15:40 there is mary magdalene, mary mother of james the less and joses and salome
mat 27:56 mary magdalene, mary mother of james and joses and mother of zebedee children

if james the less and joses are not children of BVM (which you agree with) but they are the children of another ‘Mary’, then who is the sister of BVM - is it mary wife of cleophas OR mother of zebedee children/or Salome?

do you agree that cleophus/alpheaus are the same guy? (apparently some say alphaeus is a kind of title alternative to the actual name cleophas)
do you agree that salome is the mother of the zebedee children? (amazingly some think here first name is mary too)

i know, i know its irrelevant because you say that the brother of jesus (james the just) has nothing to do with these two women… but please play it out for now.

RESPONSE:

if james the less and joses are not children of BVM (which you agree with) but they are the children of another ‘Mary’, then who is the sister of BVM - is it mary wife of cleophas OR mother of zebedee children/or Salome?<<<

RESPONSE:

The first thing to recognize is that the death/resurrection/ascension accounts are hopelessly conflicted differing legends.

But if you want to try to make sense out of the accounts:

john 19:25 … now there stood by the cross of jesus his mother, and his mothers sister, Mary **wife of Cleophas **and Mary Magdalene<<<

Four Mary’s, not three.

mark 15:40 there is mary magdalene, mary mother of james the less and joses and salome<<<

Salmone may be the name of Mary’s sister and he omitted to mention the fourth Mary.

mat 27:56 mary magdalene, **mary mother of james and joses **and mother of zebedee children<<<

Matthew forgot a Mary too.

All this is much the same as the one animal or two animals entering Jerusalem. These things are good evidence of the nonhistorical nature of various passages of the New Testament.

 

[thistle]

RESPONSE:

if james the less and joses are not children of BVM (which you agree with) but they are the children of another ‘Mary’, then who is the sister of BVM - is it mary wife of cleophas OR mother of zebedee children/or Salome?<<<

That makes three Mary’s and not four. His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas is one Mary. Its a statement saying that Mary the wife of Clopas IS his mother’s sister.

 

[JP_Marat]

thistle posted:

That makes three Mary’s and not four. His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas is one Mary. Its a statement saying that Mary the wife of Clopas IS his mother’s sister.

RESPONSE:

No. I count 4 Marys in this :

1. His mother
2. His mother’s sister (This is probably Salmone described in another passage)
3. Mary wife of Cleophas
4. Mary Magdalene

If we allow your reasoning, then Mary had a sister named Mary too.