The Atheism vs Theism Debate: I'm frustrated

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Yea, that was evidenced in my posts…😛 I’ll continue to pray for you. God loves you whether you know it or not (agnostic; simply without knowledge).

ag⋅nos⋅tic  /ægˈnɒshttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngtɪk/ sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation [ag-**nos
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***–noun ***1.a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.2.a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

Uh… thanks? For the record, I knew what the word meant. 🙂
 
My post to Touchstone was not to be focused on Pascal’s wager. After a day’s conversation this was mentioned in passing. I have no problem with your analysis of Pascal’s proposition but, like you said, it was a poorly paraphrased rendering of it. My focus is on the existence of God and Touchstone and I went a few rounds with our ideas. Thank you for your post and God bless…teachccd
I think the whole concept of “risk analysis” as the basis of faith or fealty to religion is a very bad idea. It just empowers those who are most determined (and able) to put forward the biggest imaginary carrots and the biggest imaginary sticks. Pascal got played by threats, threats which are incredible on their face.

That’s cowardice overpowering reason, in my view. There’s no reason I can see that those threats or risks should be taken as credible at all.

If I were to engage in that kind of handicapping, I would say it’s more likely that a good god would value the commitment being reasonable using the brains we have in a disciplined and responsible way – the atheist and the agnostic being, paradoxically, the pious and noble among us, having eschewed the various invitations to mental slavery and temptations to fanciful self-indulgence. If such a god exists, I think it more likely that it would reward using the mind to its fullest, courageously and virtuously, laughing at facile formulations like Pascal’s Wager, and cursing the threats of eternal suffering or penitence for not suborning the mind to primitive and barbaric mystical notions.

Or, to put it another way, perhaps the most damnable attitude in god’s view would be one that would believe on the basis of Pascal’s Wager. It’s a petty, trivial god that would reward faith and belief arrived at through Pascal’s gambit.

-TS
 
I think the whole concept of “risk analysis” as the basis of faith or fealty to religion is a very bad idea. It just empowers those who are most determined (and able) to put forward the biggest imaginary carrots and the biggest imaginary sticks. Pascal got played by threats, threats which are incredible on their face.

That’s cowardice overpowering reason, in my view. There’s no reason I can see that those threats or risks should be taken as credible at all.

If I were to engage in that kind of handicapping, I would say it’s more likely that a good god would value the commitment being reasonable using the brains we have in a disciplined and responsible way – the atheist and the agnostic being, paradoxically, the pious and noble among us, having eschewed the various invitations to mental slavery and temptations to fanciful self-indulgence. If such a god exists, I think it more likely that it would reward using the mind to its fullest, courageously and virtuously, laughing at facile formulations like Pascal’s Wager, and cursing the threats of eternal suffering or penitence for not suborning the mind to primitive and barbaric mystical notions.

Or, to put it another way, perhaps the most damnable attitude in god’s view would be one that would believe on the basis of Pascal’s Wager. It’s a petty, trivial god that would reward faith and belief arrived at through Pascal’s gambit.

-TS
It’s not surprising that you would provide a lengthy comment on a fleeting statement of mine. If you absorbed ANYTHING that I posted in all of my posts you would find that I would agree with you that Pascal’s Wager is indeed not a Catholic or Christian teaching but merely an idea or opinion. It is not to be taken as doctrine or even as a teachable moment.

With that said, our God is a God that values the very brains that He created and utilizes our sense of reason to know Him not in a mode of fantasy but in a reality that touches our very souls. Your blinders are so restricting that the possiblilty that light could shine through is quite remote. You think the same of me, of course. The difference is that I can observe all of the scientific data and theories and utilize them for what they are: revelations of God. You see them as happenstance and ignore the unseen. This is a huge error since much of our physical world is unseen yet through extraordinary means is proven to exist.

I have not been to the depths of the sea and therefore it is with faith that I trust those who have. It is with that same faith that I trust those who witnessed Christ’s resurrection and ascension into heaven. The same faith that you have in science I have in God. You will not try to disprove God, as you stated earlier, because you can’t. You find no need to but the simple reality is that you can’t. Yes, you can bring up the tooth fairy or the leprechaun (sp) but this is of no comparison since a design requires a designer; a watch requires a watchmaker.

This has to be my final post here since you nor anyone can remove the existence of God through your articulation of science. It saddens me to think that so many, like you, will go to a bookstore and read from authors that you deem credible and put all of your faith in those scriptures. But I pick up a bible and you and many others will staunchly admit that those are fairytales. It’s all where our faith lies, my friend. We both have faith: yours is in science and mine is in God. And both are fully unknown…peace…teachccd 🙂
 
I’d like to just say one very important thing:
wsu.edu/~brians/errors/lose.html 😉

Second, I honestly wouldn’t care if you decided God didn’t exist or not as long as it was rational in some form or another. You should probably ask yourself why you’re doubting the existence of an all powerful God that is all good and exists everywhere and did all kind of miracles in the past. You’d think He’d be obvious, wouldn’t you? In any case, I wish you luck with your search for truth, wherever that may take you. 🙂

As a side note, I’m a little concerned that someone posted “You will lose - because you’re relying on your own natural reason”… is that not an argument to just believe in something even if it makes no sense??
Exactly my position. History and archaeology will give you evidence of Exodus etc, but will not give you God’s “fingerprint”. Cosmology will show you how and where exactly God’s creative hand is needed, but will not give you a “MADE IN YHWH” tag all nice and fit for apologetic defense and undeniable belief. God’s message never said we would find them, and it is obviously not part of The Plan for people to have them, as far as we can ascertain via revelation.

Apologetics will give you why atheists are wrong when claiming the Christian position “is absurd” or “untenable”. It is obvious to me the XP perspective is rational, but showing so will not assure faith nor a conversion en masse of nonbelievers diehard in denying. And I believe so in my experience as an ex-atheist.
 
I don’t think you will lose by using your natural reason, nor will you win, if you think winning means changing the mind of a committed atheist at some magic moment where the atheist declares aha! I see what you mean! Think of yourself; did you come to faith or thought you lost it in an instant? In my twenties, I was a lapsed Catholic who went to Church and Catholic school as a child but never did think much of what I was taught. By the time I was in my twenties, if asked, I say I don’t know if there is a God or not. But in the back of my mind I just couldn’t accept that everything came from matter and chance. After going through a few crises in finally becoming a decent husband and father by the time I reached my forties, and my life settled down somewhat, I actually started to read, think, and write about it all. I started by looking at new age and the occult and almost instinctively, I found these views as shallow and somewhat sinister. I started to read on religion, philosophy, politics, mysticism and science, and without even remembering when, I became aware that the faith of my origins, Roman Catholicism, was closest to the truth I was seeking. In the process, I began to see where all the arguments came from and the commonalities of the sources, I could read a few lines here and there and would be able to predict almost what was going to be said next. To me atheists are so much like the denizens of Plato’s cave. They see dim shadows and think that is all there is. Remember though, that people fiercely defend what they believe, even if all they see are shadows. Belief is a process. There is no one great logical argument that will lead to the absolute truth for it is too great and grand for a human argument. Learn to recognize where it comes from, great art and lived experience are essential too, for we are multi-dimensional. Trust me your body is not all you are.
 
The Catholics here have all been nice to me and some of them thought stimulating to me. But I think most are caught in the mind-trap of not thinking outside the box. Most cannot release themselves from the shackles of theological/ creedal thinking just for a moment to try to look at things from the other side without the religious glasses. Therefore, when you do that you see things through colored lenses. I looked at things taking off the eyes of faith and realized I had been looking at religious teaching with preconceived presumptions and programed answers to everything. The unexamined life is not worth living. Socrates.

I appreciate everybody’s prayers. That may be what I need. If God exists and he has a church and that church is the Catholic Church I want to know that and believe that. Nothing I have been writing with regard to questions and doubts should be construed as I am an atheist etched in stone. I am a Catholic skeptic seeking the truth.



I am embarking on new searches. I have identified two areas and some of you might be able to help me find sources of investigation.
  1. I have identified that the new atheists’ critique of the horrors in the Old Testament (they all do that). They like to talk about the butchering of the Amalekite children, etc.
    for example listen to these Mike Earl - Bible Stories Your Parents Never Taught You
    reasonworks.com/ . Note he is an ex-Mormon who seems to have been disgruntled by that.
  2. Couple that with various archeological evidence out there that like Ze’ev Herzog’s Deconstructing the walls of Jericho (http://fontes.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/Deconstructing.htm) (and here is a critique of him by Hershel Shanks, “Herzog’s Attack on the Bible Unjustified” lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/1999-November/004758.html and some agreements and disagreements individual.utoronto.ca/mfkolarcik/jesuit/IsraelFinkelstein.html and I had a critique of Shanks critique of Hezog but I can’t find it now)

    Herzog’s basic points:
    “This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells.”
That was the intro to it. It sounds like the Adam & Eve, flood, Patriarch Age, slavery in Egypt and exile in the desert were myth. The Davidic Kingdom wasn’t so expansive and grandiose. I can’t figure out all the finer points of his paper, but it seems Israel emerged from a sub-set of Cannanite culture and religion. Ashera was Yahweh’s (son of El and brother of Baal) consort. Elohim is used in Chapter 1 of Genesis and Yahweh in Chapter 2 creation.

Combine these issues with my extant incredulity to vicarious redemption to a vicarious original sin, the whole thing has become toxic to faith.
  1. Next problem: Redactionism. Bart Ehrman Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255919537&sr=8-3 .
    Scribal errors, accidental and intentional, etc.
My current plans: Read the introductory Old Testament background material sections in my Navarre Pentateuch and Joshua-Kings Volumes.

I need good Catholic sources to refute any and all of the above. These really are core issues for me. If these stand, a house of cards falls for me.

Thanks,

Summa8447
 
Skepticism about the Faith for any Catholic is a very serious sin. It doesn’t have to get a lot more complicated than that.
 
Skepticism about the Faith for any Catholic is a very serious sin. It doesn’t have to get a lot more complicated than that.
You’re right! We should avoid questions and accept everything we’re told no matter what…unless what’s being said is a message from The Enemy, of course! Huddle together my brothers and sisters; close your ears from the ever-present dinning of heretics and fear everything that ends in a question mark! (Give me a break. :rolleyes:)

I think I could pass off as a cult member, don’t you? ;)😃
 
Skepticism about the Faith for any Catholic is a very serious sin. It doesn’t have to get a lot more complicated than that.
I simply can’t understand that mindset. To me, skepticism is a virtue… in any circumstance. The truth can withstand scrutiny.
 
I need good Catholic sources to refute any and all of the above. These really are core issues for me. If these stand, a house of cards falls for me.

Thanks,

Summa8447
Christian Cadre: christiancadre.org/
… is an interdenominational site with a wealth of argumentation refuting atheists. It was instrumental to my departure from atheism.

Bede’s Library: bede.org.uk/
… also good.

P.S.:
Off the top of my head, those are the one’s I remember. By the way, Christian Cadre has many links to several apologetics sites. It has an exclusively Roman Catholic list of links.

P.S.#2:
Although the author’s not a Catholic, Lee Strobel’s books are great. They helped me a ton.
amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_0_8?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=lee+strobel&sprefix=lee+stro

P.S.#3:
It appears I’m on an “editing” spree here! I almost forgot Catholic Answers has… er, um, answers for you. Click on the top where it says “FAITH”, the page it gets you to, has a search thingie, just tap the main words of your doubts and presto, you got it.
 
I simply can’t understand that mindset. To me, skepticism is a virtue… in any circumstance. The truth can withstand scrutiny.
I agree, definitely. What maybe is a sin is sticking to your doubts and not clarifying them, not praying and not trusting God to help you out.

Reason is a divine gift. The Church doesn’t turn its back on reason, on the contrary it makes abundant use of it, and has throughout its history to this very day. Augustine, Aquinas, etc.
 
I agree, definitely. What maybe is a sin is sticking to your doubts and not clarifying them, not praying and not trusting God to help you out.
I wonder: would you be as willing to oblige if a Muslim asked you to pray to Allah for help? If the doubt is the existence of a god itself, then it’s certainly unreasonable to ask someone to pretend that they believe in that god, pray to them, and not do so with other gods. To be fair, Christians would have to undergo this process for every god imaginable. Something tells me that most Christians would refuse. 🤷

If one has to have faith in something’s existence to see the evidence for it, then they are probably only seeing what they want to see. Evidence precedes belief, not vice-versa.
 
I agree, definitely. What maybe is a sin is sticking to your doubts and not clarifying them, not praying and not trusting God to help you out.
As one who lived in the Provo, Utah area for a couple years a ways back, I got to be quite familiar with “Moroni’s promise”, the challenge given by Mormon’s to unbeleivers to read the Book of Mormon and pray sincerely to God and ask God in all earnesty if what they have read is true, and of God.

It doesn’t take a lot of sophisticated reasoning to see that this is clearly prejudicial in its construction.

Your response here seems similarly prejudicial. If one does have honest, strategic doubts, it seems that praying to God and trusting him to help you out would be a way to corrupt the reasoning process, inserting a prejudicial bias into the analysis, no? If I’m trying to discern the credibility of source A, it seems being told to reason yes, but continue to rely on source A as a way to work out your decision is perfectly unreasonable as a way to proceed. It defeats the purpose of reasoning, which is to weigh things without bias as best we are able.

I don’t begrudge any questioning believer in taking that path – I certainly did, for a long while as a doubting Christian. And that does help, does work to sustain belief and support for faith. But the fact that it does works against the idea that reason is really the judge here, in the Christian view.
Reason is a divine gift. The Church doesn’t turn its back on reason, on the contrary it makes abundant use of it, and has throughout its history to this very day. Augustine, Aquinas, etc.
I think the message that comes across is that reason’s “fine”, but “faith” is really what drives the matter. Reason alone can’t help you, nor is it advised. Correct?

-TS
 
I think most are caught in the mind-trap of not thinking outside the box. Most cannot release themselves from the shackles of theological/ creedal thinking just for a moment to try to look at things from the other side without the religious glasses.
Of course the same can be said about secular glasses (or atheistic glasses). People who refuse to look at history other than completely worldly events, without the possibility of believing there might be some supernatural point to all this, could be accused of not thinking outside the box.
Therefore, when you do that you see things through colored lenses. I looked at things taking off the eyes of faith and realized I had been looking at religious teaching with preconceived presumptions and programed answers to everything. The unexamined life is not worth living. Socrates.
Indeed. It may be the case, that those certain preconceived presumptions are not intrinsic to the faith but have been customarily associated with the faith (either just by you, or by many individuals). One random example seems to be the belief in extraterrestrials … many Christians think that it would be un-Christian to even accept the possibility of aliens … and yet, there is no reason (as far as I’ve thoroughly investigated) that they should automatically assume this. But another big one is evolution, of course. Many Evangelicals, when seeing that evolution is likely to be true, oftentimes apostatize from the faith, because they assume the two can’t go together.
  1. I have identified that the new atheists’ critique of the horrors in the Old Testament (they all do that). They like to talk about the butchering of the Amalekite children, etc.
    for example listen to these Mike Earl - Bible Stories Your Parents Never Taught You
    reasonworks.com/ . Note he is an ex-Mormon who seems to have been disgruntled by that.
A brief and probably infinitely unsatisfying note on this:

The reason why a human can’t take human life will-nilly is that he wasn’t the one to give human life (God creates the human soul at conception … so not even the parents can kill their children willy-nilly). God, however, has to right to take away life whenever He wants. He can do this either by natural means (disease, heart failure, etc.), or He can employ a human agent. For the second possibility, the human agent could kill the person without being told by God but because of evil intention (but God could allow it nonetheless), or God could, in special circumstances, directly tell someone to kill somebody else. He told Abraham to kill Isaac, for example. Abraham thus gained the right to kill an innocent person, for He was permitted by the only one who could take innocent life justly. Hence, if God even told you to kill children, technically it would not be a sin.

This sounds very sketchy and blasphemous and jarring, but it’s completely without any contradiction (unless, of course, I’m completely wrong … if so, correction is requested).
Code:
  Herzog's basic points:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.
Much of the arguments I read in that link was based on “There is no evidence for these things. Hence, they did not happen.” To a very cogent line of reasoning. Just because there has not been archeological evidence discovered about something, certainly doesn’t mean it never existed. Empiricists seems to have the same thinking: if I can’t see it, it doesn’t exist (which is silly … and I suppose and hope that not all empiricists think that way absolutely).

There were arguments for quite some time that Pontius Pilate never existed because there was absolutely no non-Christian writings or anything about him. Turns out, an archeologist uncovered something (a stone engraving I think it was) with Pilate’s name on it. The myth of Pilate’s nonexistence was then put to rest.
And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.
It seems pretty reasonable that monotheism didn’t catch on very much until later in Jewish history … because polytheism was constantly popular among the Jews. Nonetheless, monotheism was pronounced on Sinai, yet it only very slowly took effect, as the Bible seems to suggest (but perhaps I’m wrong).
 
Skepticism about the Faith for any Catholic is a very serious sin. It doesn’t have to get a lot more complicated than that.
I simply can’t understand that mindset. To me, skepticism is a virtue… in any circumstance. The truth can withstand scrutiny.
Two very different views, and both of them, I think, are wrong (if taken absolutely and without any qualification).

It is true that if one genuinely has the faith (i.e. has the knowledge and belief of the truths of Christianity), then to reject it knowingly would be sinful (this is probably what you’re saying, reggie, so I probably agree with you). However, “skepticism about the faith” could include skepticism about various externals that are oftentimes associated with the faith but are not intrinsically part of it. That’s what I would say. I may be wrong.

Also, skepticism is not a virtue in every circumstance. It can be sometimes with some things, but I think it’s wrong to be skeptical about the mind’s ability to grasp reality at all. Also, I believe it’s wrong to be skeptical about first principles. Would you say, Gearhead, that it’s wrong to be skeptical that skepticism is a virtue in any circumstance? Would it be wrong for you at least? You seem to be pretty certain that skepticism is a virtue … except with regard to that statement? No?
 
I wonder: would you be as willing to oblige if a Muslim asked you to pray to Allah for help? If the doubt is the existence of a god itself, then it’s certainly unreasonable to ask someone to pretend that they believe in that god, pray to them, and not do so with other gods. To be fair, Christians would have to undergo this process for every god imaginable. Something tells me that most Christians would refuse. 🤷
Christians shouldn’t pray to other gods because they have a doctrine against all other gods. Agnostics do not (at least, that’s not intrinsic to agnosticism). Atheists, I suppose, would have a doctrine against the existence of God (unless they’re Agnostic Atheists, I suppose).
If one has to have faith in something’s existence to see the evidence for it, then they are probably only seeing what they want to see. Evidence precedes belief, not vice-versa.
Depends what you mean by “evidence.” So far, it hasn’t been clearly defined ever in the history of Catholic Answers Forum. (well … as far as I’ve perused … I probably missed something).

Now, the Christian belief about the theological virtue of faith is that it’s a kind of knowledge that is supernaturally implanted in someone’s intellect (though it can be rejected). Having that knowledge might be considered one’s “evidence” for the Christian God and would lay part of the foundation for accepting miracles as acts of God. Faith, however, is not complete knowledge, but partial knowledge of something, along with simply believing everything else (about Christianity). I can elaborate on this if that wasn’t clear enough.
Your response here seems similarly prejudicial. If one does have honest, strategic doubts, it seems that praying to God and trusting him to help you out would be a way to corrupt the reasoning process, inserting a prejudicial bias into the analysis, no? If I’m trying to discern the credibility of source A, it seems being told to reason yes, but continue to rely on source A as a way to work out your decision is perfectly unreasonable as a way to proceed. It defeats the purpose of reasoning, which is to weigh things without bias as best we are able.
A fair objection.

But … I don’t think so. If you know that God doesn’t exist, then it would be unreasonable to pray to Him. If you simply have doubts that God exists, that would imply you are uncertain about the subject, and must remain open to the possibility. It’s not always unreasonable to try something even if you have big doubts about it, especially if the thing you’re trying is worth it if you achieve it.
I think the message that comes across is that reason’s “fine”, but “faith” is really what drives the matter. Reason alone can’t help you, nor is it advised. Correct?
One is certainly advised to use reason, but indeed reason alone can’t save you, nor can it explain things more fully without the assistance of faith.
 
I am a Catholic skeptic seeking the truth.
“Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.” (James 1:2-8)
 
Also, the same article lists several qualifications that the Messiah would meet but Jesus doesn’t…
Here’s a clue:

“R. [Rabbi] Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, whilst (elsewhere) it is written, lowly, and riding upon an ***! [donkey] — if they are meritorious, with the clouds of heaven; if not, lowly and riding upon an ***.” – Sanhedrin 98a (Scriptures referenced are Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9.)

Nope. Neither prophecy is conditional. They will both be fulfilled. The first was fulfilled 2000 years ago by Jesus the Christ when He came riding into Jerusalem on a donkey on Palm Sunday. And the second will be fulfilled in the Second Coming of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.
 
It is true that if one genuinely has the faith (i.e. has the knowledge and belief of the truths of Christianity), then to reject it knowingly would be sinful (this is probably what you’re saying, reggie, so I probably agree with you).
That’s right, Areopagite - that’s what I meant. If one has the faith, one has a supernatural gift which is something that transcends reason. That gift must be preserved. To willfully doubt or to engage in skepticism about the faith that you’ve received and embraced is wrong. If one is not yet a Catholic, then it’s a different story. But when a person becomes a Catholic, through Baptism the person makes vows to God to preserve the faith (the Baptismal vows), and these vows are reaffirmed through Confirmation.

It’s the same with marriage. A man who decides to be skeptical about the vows of his marriage and begins exploring “other options” with various women is committing a very serious sin about the committment that he made to his wife.
However, “skepticism about the faith” could include skepticism about various externals that are oftentimes associated with the faith but are not intrinsically part of it. That’s what I would say. I may be wrong.


Certainly, true - yes. But that’s different from the core of the faith, which we receive as a divine gift and we embrace with a committment. As thousands of Catholic martyrs teach us also, we should be ready to hold that faith even in the face of threats of death. It’s loyalty to Christ – and He is more than a logical theorem for any Catholic. In the Eucharist, we’re united with the Person of Christ. In Confession, Christ personally absolves our sins with a power that no philosophical argument can provide.

So, skepticism about the Faith that is given us is a betrayal of Christ. This is true for those who have publicly embraced the Faith and vowed loyalty to Christ.

This does not include involuntary doubts that can come on a person.
And as you mention, it is good to have some healthy skepticism (or a critical view) on pastoral, disciplinary plans in the Church – in order to help improve the mission of the Church for everyone.
Also, skepticism is not a virtue in every circumstance.
True. As in the example I gave. There can be many more. For example, when a child says that he loves his mother and father, should the parents first response be skepticism? How about a husband who treats his wife’s every word with skepticism?

Atheists who claim to be skeptics betray this claim by the trust that they put in many claims especially from science. The untrained atheist accepts the scientific claim without doing research or lab testing on the claim itself. But that would be required in a skeptical world view. But this would paralyze a person – every claim would have to be independently verified and nothing could be trusted on the word of another.

It would actually destroy society and create a world where nothing could be trusted in business, community, social interactions or even in family matters.
It can be sometimes with some things, but I think it’s wrong to be skeptical about the mind’s ability to grasp reality at all.
Excellent point. That’s exactly what does happen and some decide that human reason itself is not trustworthy.
 
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