The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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The atomic bomb destroyed an entire city indiscriminately which is contrary to Catholic teaching.
Gaudium et spes 80, 81:
“Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.”
Well America is not Catholic, it was a fight to the end, we might not have started it but we sure as 🙂 ended it.

How many Germans died in the Battle of Berlin? Was it truly necessary for the Soviet Union to take the city? Wouldn’t the Germans surrender more readily to the Allies? Then the Soviets that had been portrayed as mercilessness killers by German propaganda. Oh yeah, Stalin wanted to take a picture from the ReichStag. And take the city for the glory of the Soviet Union, surely Tomdstone you condemn the actions of the Soviets for killing 250,000 Germans in the last few weeks of the war? Or do you make exceptions for your nation?

You see in times of war you do what is necessary for the survival of your people and nation. Wars are won through force, anyone who thinks differently is naive or idealistic.
 
You see in times of war you do what is necessary for the survival of your people and nation. Wars are won through force, anyone who thinks differently is naive or idealistic.
But is the method of force used approved by God or condemned by God?
Gaudium et spes 80, 81:
“Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.”
 
The Soviets sacrificed so much, demonstrated much valor and gallantry in a war where they had to fight for their survival. They have wonderfully prevailed, despite being unprepared for a modern war, out of necessity, industrial prowess, and the tenacity of the Soviet people.

I was peeved when people discount the contributions of the Soviet Union in defeating Nazi Germany. Also, I was annoyed when someone argued that the Wehrmacht was relative benign while totally ignoring the treatment of Red Army POWs in order to provide a (however erroneous) context on how ruthless the Japanese were. Apparently, it didn’t suffice just to provide an account of the Japanese war crimes (as one cannot contest their severity). In order to makes this comparison one had to separate the Einsatzgruppen and the SS from the Wehrmacht (as if they operated independently of each other) as this primarily exploits the trope that the most of the Wehrmacht generals were mostly professional, aristocratic Prussian military officers, not fanatical Nazis, who often disagreed with and frustrated by the Fuhrer’s (a Bavarian corporeal) strategic decisions.
[The Trent Park secret recordings of captured Wehrmacht generals] also explode the post-war claim of the Wehrmacht that they did not know what the SS were doing to the Jews, Slavs, mentally disabled and others among what they termed “untermensch” (sub-humans). …
Attempts to suggest that genocide was solely the responsibility of the SS and Nazi fanatics, and not widespread across the whole Wehrmacht, completely collapse before the evidence of these recordings.
Although most of the generals at Trent Park were captured in North Africa, Italy and France, it is clear they knew perfectly well what was happening throughout the Third Reich and its occupied territories.
Even General Dietrich von Choltitz - who has had the reputation of being a “good” German ever since he refused to carry out Hitler’s orders to destroy Paris - is implicated by these transcripts of killing Jews in the Crimea in 1941 and 1942.
After the publication of this extraordinary, horrific but compelling collection of secretly-recorded conversations, the alibi of the German High Command - that they did not know what the SS were up to, and anyhow they were, as Heim put it, “only carrying out orders” - is shown to be demonstrably false.
dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-469883/The-Genocide-Generals-secret-recordings-explode-myth-knew-Holocaust.html

Those generals were not indicted for war crimes because it was judged that it would undermine British intelligence gathering since it reveal their methods for gathering critical intelligence.

One could argue that it was a form of “justice” to drop Little Boy and Fat Man on Japan for Japanese war crimes, if that was of any relevance to the strategic and moral aspects of the decision to use the weapons. Concerning whatever evidence there is for the impending execution of American POWs, in order for that to be considered as an argument for using nuclear weapons, it had to be known by the Allies since one cannot base a decision based on things one cannot know. The Allies knew that the Soviet Union would become involved in the Pacific, and they did not consult the Soviet Union when making the Potsdam Declaration.

Great Britain invaded Iceland to prevent it from used as a Kreigsmarine base. The Winter War was not a war of aggression or an expansionist war. Moreover, the Soviets attempted to negotiate with the Finns, just like the British did. The only difference was that Iceland did not resist the invasion. Even though, Great Britain had an empire, even the most anti-imperialist leftist would not argue that was an example of imperialism (although Britain did have an interest in retaining its empire throughout the war).

Don’t be so “utilitarian” about the estimated causalities of the Allied men. If the desideratum was to prevent any further causalities, the “Allies” could say unambiguously that Emperor Hirohito could retain his stature within Japan and not be charged with any war crimes.
 
Latias, you keep talking about the Russian front. That’s not the subject of the thread, and I can only remind you so often: when you won’t talk about what’s put to you, it becomes evident that you can’t.

You can be “peeved” all you want, but being “peeved” does not constitute facts or argument.

It’s clear: you asked the original question, yet clearly had your mind made up beforehand.

Still, no one can answer any of the 3 questions I posed above, re: solving the practicalities of a “bomb test,” or whether such a test was realistic.

And BTW - please tell us what you think of the photos Backhand posted.
 
Moreover, the Soviets attempted to negotiate with the Finns, just like the British did. The only difference was that Iceland did not resist the invasion. Even though, Great Britain had an empire, even the most anti-imperialist leftist would not argue that was an example of imperialism (although Britain did have an interest in retaining its empire throughout the war).
What! Did you just say the Finnish Winter war was not a war of aggression? Yes Finland had a choice they could become a Soviet Puppet State like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, or they could fight! Or face things like the Katyn massacre or the many NKVD prisoner massacres that took place in Soviet occupied nations.

Comparing the “invasion” of Iceland to Finland is silly! Iceland got its Independence during the war, and was given full independence. Do you think Finland would have been free after the war? Do you think Stalin would have given them their independence? Just like they totally gave Poland and every Eastern European nation their independence right after the war, oh wait.

“Why its an humanitarian effort to give the poor Finns Bread!”- Said the Soviets.
“Well have a Molotov cocktail to wash it down!”- Said the Finns.
Don’t be so “utilitarian” about the estimated causalities of the Allied men. If the desideratum was to prevent any further causalities, the “Allies” could say unambiguously that Emperor Hirohito could retain his stature within Japan and not be charged with any war crimes.
OH I SEE! If the desideratum was to prevent any further causalities, the “Soviets” could say unambiguously that Reichskanzler Hitler could retain his stature within Germany and not be charged with any war crimes. :rolleyes:
 
The Finns always had their independence. The Soviets just got Karelia (as a buffer for Leningrad) and a few other things.
Comparing the “invasion” of Iceland to Finland is silly! Iceland got its Independence during the war, and was given full independence. Do you think Finland would have been free after the war? Do you think Stalin would have given them their independence? Just like they totally gave Poland and every Eastern European nation their independence right after the war, oh wait.
Both sides in the Cold War intervened to violate the sovereignty of various nations if they perceived it to be in their interest. We are both tendentious, so I will leave it at that.
Latias, you keep talking about the Russian front. That’s not the subject of the thread, and I can only remind you so often: when you won’t talk about what’s put to you, it becomes evident that you can’t.
No, the issue of Japanese war crimes were brought up, and in order to emphasize the heinousness of the Japanese, it was (erroneously) emphasized that the Wehrmacht was benign in conduct as it trivialized Soviet suffering. Since most civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not perpetrate any war crimes, why would it be relevant to using nuclear weapons on those cities (if insist about me staying on topic)?

Also saying that the Invasion of Japan would have been uniquely bloody, which is incorrect during the course of the war.​

OH I SEE! If the desideratum was to prevent any further causalities, the “Soviets” could say unambiguously that Reichskanzler Hitler could retain his stature within Germany and not be charged with any war crimes.
Hitler could die in his bunker, the Volkssturm and the rest of the Wehrmacht could either surrender or choose make a valiant last stand under the pressure of battle. But the primary justification for ending the war was to prevent American causalities, and the Soviets were willing to endure a few hundred thousand more causalities to secure their objectives as Stalin believed the Western Allies would not relinquish the territory they would occupied and wanted to ensure he captured Berlin.

“Soviets” should not be in quotation marks because the “Allies” usually refers to those who were opposed to the Axis; moreover, the Soviets did not unilaterally propose an ultimatum to the Nazis. Since the Soviet Union was not apprised of the Potsdam declaration, it was appropriate of me to use quotes.

The issue for me is whether Soviet involvement and the effects of a naval blockade and strategic bombing would be sufficient for surrender.

I was never concerned with the practicality of the using bomb demonstration for the Japanese. If this was a significant issue, the United States could simply give the Japanese information about the successful Trinity test (although not about the design of the bomb, of course) if they were afraid of the possibility of an unsuccessful live demonstration.
 
So now the idea is to just give the Japanese “information” about atomic weapons?

Let’s get real.

You’ve not actually provided a single basis to believe that any of my facts are incorrect - if anything, your cite to the number of Purple Hearts ordered validates my opinion that the invasion of japan proper would have resulted in horrible carnage on both sides. If you want to quibble over whether it would have been worse than the Eastern front - what’s the sense in that? I think your argument is “the bomb should not have been used because the carnage would not have been so bad as the eastern front was”…and if that is in fact your argument was, I’m sorry, fruitful discussion is impossible.
 
Please end the emotionalism. All the facts point to one thing: the Japanese could not hold out for very long. Period. Fact. They did not have B-29 bombers that could drop bombs on them 24 hours a day. The Russians had mobilized. No food, no ammunition and eventually, no help from anyone anywhere. Okinawa was taken. They could not take a two front war.

The invasion had to happen only to deny the Russians the prize. And let’s not bring up atrocities. American intelligence took the original documents from Unit 731 and granted immunity since the experiments on human subjects represented the best data. Similar deals were made with German war criminals who had highly valuable intelligence.

Ed
 
I didn’t read the entire thread, so maybe someone addressed my points elsewhere.

I lean towards the bombings being unjustified. Here’s why: all life is equal dignity, value and worth. A Japanese life is not more or less valuable than an American Soldier’s life.

Knowingly killing an innocent person should be avoided at all costs.

To my knowledge the bombs were not dropped on military targets with the intent of destroying the military targets but civilians were also killed as a ‘dual effect’. The bombs were dropped on “cities” to break the will of the Japanese people.

The final kicker for me was hearing on Relevant Radio that Nagasaki (sp?), I believe, was the highest concentration of Catholics in Japan, not that THAT is why I lean unjustified, but that was the big eye opener for me on this issue. I used to be a “100% absolutely Justified” person.

God Bless,

I favor the “demonstration” first, at least.
 
I’m sorry, Ed, it’s not “emotionalism” to show pictures of babies impaled on bayonets.

You can say that the “facts point to japan being unable to hold out,” but seriously, there really are no “facts” anyone has pointed to, at all, supporting this. OK, Japan was short on gasoline. But there are certainly no facts before us suggesting that, for example, Japan had less than 2 weeks of rice on hand nationwide when it surrendered.

The bottom line is that, absent the atomic bomb being dropped, the war would have gone on for a longer period, perhaps much longer, and with many more casualties, perhaps far far more.

Also, I find it noteworthy that no one can or will address the total Impracticalities of any sort of “demonstration” of the a-bomb’s power. Here’s another reason such a test was totally unworkable: because the technology was sufficiently new that no one could be sure it worked, and that uncertainty worked both in favor of the bomb being less powerful then planned, or more powerful: some scientists in New Mexico would not attend the first explosion because they thought the whole state of New Mexico would be incinerated! Nothing could be worse than a “test” that either failed, or that killed the Japanese viewers.

All this second guessing comes across as so much of “the sheep bleat peacefully but cower for the shepherd when the wolves come.”
 
I tried to find the earlier threads on this subject, but have never been able to use the search function effectively. In any case, the matter was covered quite exhaustively in those earlier threads. Based on those, I believe that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings saved thousands of Allied and Japanese lives by shortening the war. I make no judgment on the morality of the bombings, just that they saved lives by shortening the war. At that point in the war, if I recall correctly, casualties were about 100,000 per month in the Pacific theater.

As for the morality of the bombings, is there any difference between the atomic bombings of those two cities, and the fire-bombing of Tokyo which cost more lives? Or the fire bombing of Dresden? If anyone thinks an invasion would have been quick and easy, review the battle statistics for Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and other Pacific battles.

It is noteworthy that it took two atomic bombs to end the war. Not one. If the first one did not do it, neither would a demonstration bomb.
 
The fire bombing of Tokyo. Look it up.
Ed
Excellent point Ed.

More Japanese civilians were burned to death during the fire bombing of Tokyo than were killed by both A-bombs combined. The name, Major General Curtis E. LeMay evoked more hatred from Japanese of that generation than who ever was in charge of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki operation.
 
Japan protested the use of the bomb:
“Combatant and noncombatant men and women, old and young, are massacred without discrimination by the atmospheric pressure of the explosion, as well as by the radiating heat which result therefrom. Consequently there is involved a bomb having the most cruel effects humanity has ever known. . . . The bombs in question, used by the Americans, by their cruelty and by their terrorizing effects, surpass by far gas or any other arm, the use of which is prohibited. Japanese protests against U.S. desecration of international principles of war paired the use of the atomic bomb with the earlier firebombing, which massacred old people, women and children, destroying and burning down Shinto and Buddhist temples, schools, hospitals, living quarters, etc. . . . They now use this new bomb, having an uncontrollable and cruel effect much greater than any other arms or projectiles ever used to date. This constitutes a new crime against humanity and civilization.”
 
"Imagine your beloved home cities — Honolulu and Chicago — vaporized in an instant. Imagine ordinary citizens — many of whom were innocent children — killed instantly, or walking through the streets like zombies, bodies burned and disfigured, crying out for help, pleading for water. Imagine hundreds upon hundreds of dead bodies floating down the city’s rivers. Imagine 200,000 people dead. Imagine Hell on earth.

This is what I saw in Hiroshima."
nichibeitimes.com/?p=5474
 
You’ve not actually provided a single basis to believe that any of my facts are incorrect - if anything, your cite to the number of Purple Hearts ordered validates my opinion that the invasion of japan proper would have resulted in horrible carnage on both sides. If you want to quibble over whether it would have been worse than the Eastern front - what’s the sense in that? I think your argument is “the bomb should not have been used because the carnage would not have been so bad as the eastern front was”…and if that is in fact your argument was, I’m sorry, fruitful discussion is impossible.
No that was never my argument. You just ignore the Eastern Front, saying that the causalities that would be suffered would have been unprecedented. You said:
It would have been the worst carnage ever seen in the history of the earth.
Moreover, you initially made the red herring when you portrayed the Wehrmacht as a pillar of rectitude compared to the Japanese imperial army to justify the proposition that the Japanese deserved it.

I was not concerned with the practicality of a demonstration. This was my main argument.
The issue for me is whether Soviet involvement and the effects of a naval blockade and strategic bombing would be sufficient for surrender.
The Soviets were not involved in the Potsdam Declaration, and it is often said that the main factor behind the surrender was Soviet involvement (and a two front war would be sufficient to precipitate a surrender).

So where is your information about the imminent execution of allied POWs, specifically that they were scheduled to be executed?
 
Japan’s intention to murder allied POWs in the event of invasion is well documented - just as everything else I write!

It is the subject of a large exhibit at the national atomic museum at Los alamos, New Mexico, which is where I first learned of it (and which suffice it to say is very pro-atomic bombing). It’s also discussed at, for example, theprisonerlist.com.
 
Tomdstone’s posts cannot be relied upon, for a simple reason: to him, absolutely all violence is morally unacceptable. I asked him on a thread months ago: hypothetically, would he raise a fist to stop a terrorist from raping his own virgin daughter? He would not. His refusal speaks volumes - and I am going to keep pointing to that example for years.

That’s also why his “boo hoo hoo for the Japanese” - the same ones who attacked Pearl Harbor, raped Nanking, etc., rather falls on deaf ears.
 
My father was as about far left as one can get but he always supported using the A Bombs. That’s because he was on a ship off the shore of Japan waiting to invade. He had lost too many friends and comrades already. 70 years after fact, enjoying the freedom people like my father secured, it easy to criticize
 
Many of the pro-arguments are begging the question by assuming that Operation Downfall would have been necessary. Surely, it would have resulted in hundreds of thousands of causalities, and it would be hard to estimate the final count because even if the invasion commenced, the Imperial Japanese might have surrendered before the second phase, that is the invasion of Honshu, perhaps with Soviets fighting for control of Hokkaido. I still find the notion that the causality count would reach 1 million to be questionable, but hundreds of thousands would be accurate and a matter of fact. My silence should not be considered a denial of this.

The question, of course, was whether the invasion was necessary to cause Japan to surrender. It is obvious that I wanted to focus on Soviet involvement because I linked to two videos that were about the invasion of Manchuria as I said it was an " forgotten and underappreciated facet of WWII".

I started this thread because of tomdstone was discussing the atomic bombing in another thread.



I see little further need to discuss the Eastern Front since I demonstrated to my satisfaction that PolarGuy’s whitewashing of the Wehrmacht (as an institution and its leadership as opposed to the conduct of the soldiers) is untenable. It is human nature for people not admit that they are wrong, especially for some obdurate persons, but instead avoids this admission or any attempt to save face by saying that the Eastern Front not the subject of this thread or saying that I did not address his facts (as I put in some time to address his benign portrayal of the Wehrmacht precisely because he ignored the Eastern Front). I am generally the type of person that could tolerate digressions, as only as they are interesting and tangentially relevant, so invoking a code of etiquette does not cause me a great deal of shame. Also, one could also question whether Imperial Japanese Army’s turpitude was relevant in targeting Japanese civilians, most of whom were not involved in committing the war crimes.
As for the morality of the bombings, is there any difference between the atomic bombings of those two cities, and the fire-bombing of Tokyo which cost more lives? Or the fire bombing of Dresden? If anyone thinks an invasion would have been quick and easy, review the battle statistics for Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and other Pacific battles.
Good point, This seems similar to the Peter Singer argument that infanticide is morally acceptable since there does not seem to be any morally relevant difference between terminating in life in the uterus or outside it (as Singer emphasizes it is the cognitive capability of the life that is of relevance). Large-scale conventional bombing and nuclear weapons both kill people and destroy infrastructure and property, thus there does not need to be any morally significant factor regarding the use of nuclear weapons vs. conventional bombing in civilian populated areas.
 
Tomdstone’s posts cannot be relied upon, for a simple reason: to him, absolutely all violence is morally unacceptable. I asked him on a thread months ago: hypothetically, would he raise a fist to stop a terrorist from raping his own virgin daughter? He would not. His refusal speaks volumes - and I am going to keep pointing to that example for years.

That’s also why his “boo hoo hoo for the Japanese” - the same ones who attacked Pearl Harbor, raped Nanking, etc., rather falls on deaf ears.
The civilians killed by the atomic bomb are not guilty of the crimes you list.
 
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