The Authority of Creeds

[MiddleWay]

Does Catholicity or Orthodoxy require that you believe every word of the Apostles, Nicene or Athanasian Creeds? Do they have official dogma of any kind that cannot be proved by simply appealing to these creeds? Mainly, I want to know why a Roman Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox or Anglican would DISAGREE with the statement below from the United Methodist Church. Can anyone help?
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Unlike some churches that require affirmation of a strict list of beliefs as a condition of membership, The United Methodist Church is not a creedal church.

So why do we recite creeds during worship?

The United Methodist Hymnal contains nine creeds or affirmations. Only two of these (Nicene and Apostles’) are strictly considered to be creeds because they are products of ecumenical councils.

The remaining affirmations are taken from Paul’s letters (Corinthians, Colossians, Romans and Timothy) along with affirmations from the United Church of Canada, the Korean Methodist Church and the United Methodist Social Affirmation.

United Methodists are not required to believe every word of the affirmations. Church founder, John Wesley himself did not agree with a historic (Athanasian) creed, because he disliked its emphasis on condemning people to hell.

Affirmations help us come to our own understanding of the Christian faith. They affirm our unity in Christ with those followers who first wrote them, the many generations who have recited them before us and those who will recite them after we have gone.

-The Rev. J. Richard Peck

The Rev. J. Richard Peck is [former] editor of Newscope and United Methodist resources including The Book of Resolutions and the Daily Christian Advocate.

 

[Pup7]

Ex-UM here. That statement is part of what started me on my search outside of the the UM. I don’t know how you can recite the Apostle’s Creed, say you’re Christian, and not believe it.

Here’s the UM version that I recited for years and years (and yes, it’s slightly different from the current one in the UM Hymnal):

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead and buried,
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
The communion of saints, the forgiveness of sin,
The resurrection of the body
And the life everlasting. Amen.

That’s the very essence of Christianity. How can you not believe that (rhetorical question) and call yourself a Methodist? I couldn’t wrap my head around it.

I might not give the “right” answer, but I’ll give you what I think on this.

If you open the catechism, the whole of Part One is literally designed around and encompasses the Apostle’s Creed. It’s the Profession of Faith, it’s exactly what Catholicism is. Same with the Nicene Creed (the small small amount of theology I know holds the Athanasian Creed in some question as to authorship, and I admit I’m less familiar with that one than the other two).

Others are going to get more into theology than I can. I’m not a theologian in any sense of the word and I don’t pretend to be one. And maybe someone will come along and shoot what I’ve said full of holes (LOL) and that’s okay too.

When I read the statement you posted several months ago, when I was starting to make my way back to church, I was shocked. And I didn’t like it. I always thought the Apostle’s Creed defined what made me Christian - I was surprised when I read “well, you don’t have to buy it all”.

Our very catechism is written around those creeds. So yes, we believe them, and wholeheartedly.

 

[dochawk]

Creeds are, by definition, well, definitional.

A creed states what it means to be a Christian, or a particular type. If you don’t believe that, your not one of those.

hawk

 

[MiddleWay]

Very clear answer. Thank you. Essentially, “Why would anyone who called themselves a Christian NOT believe the Apostles Creed?!”

Yes, I agree but I also see a lot of people who I suspect have their fingers crossed behind there backs when they are saying the Creeds. I have no problem in saying, “This is what the vast majority of Body of Christ through out history have believed but we are not going to give you a litmus test before you receive the Sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood.” I think we can give our heart to Jesus but still have questions in our minds. The Creeds are Symbols to me. Symbols point to the Reality they represent - they are not the Reality itself. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Isn’t belief as much a matter of the heart then it is the mind? Belief is not just intellect accent - it’s also trust and surrender to a Person. Right? Faith! And at its best faith always seeks understanding. What are the technical definitions, anyway, of the words Faith and Credo?

What about a “conscience clause” where someone is perplexed and is not sure if they believe a certain article of the Creed or not? Does anyone truly understand what they “believe” when they first start out on the Christian journey in earnest?

It’s not if they the UMC were saying, “We are right and you are wrong.” They do say…Affirmations help us come to our own understanding of the Christian faith. They affirm our unity in Christ with those followers who first wrote them, the many generations who have recited them before us and those who will recite them after we have gone.

I guess folks think that by saying you need to believe “this Creed” to be a Christian they are saying that they concerned that if you say otherwise, i.e. “I’m not sure about the “virginity” of Mary,” you are automatically placing a form of discrimination into the equation and you can end up on a slippery slope where you don’t need to believe much of anything and can still call yourself a Christian. Thus, if you want to believe what the majority of Christians have believed over the centuries you will set your heart AND MIND on believing the outline of THE FAITH as given to you in the forms of the great ecumenical Creeds. Again, faith seeks understanding. Does this make any sense to you?

Also…

“I have no desire to make windows into men’s souls. “ Elizabeth I

I have always liked the above phrase because it seemed to make a persons “conscience” the highest appeal in the realm of aurthority.
But I have also wondered if this is what she meant?

Thanks for reading this and your thoughtful reply.

 

[po18guy]

Outside of the creeds, Methodists rely on the private interpretation of scripture. Thus, they are opinion.

 

[LostSheep7]

John Wesley himself did not agree with a historic (Athanasian) creed, because he disliked its emphasis on condemning people to hell.

John Calvin rejected the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. I find amazing how heresiarchs believe they have the authority to reject the Creeds and Ecumenical Councils and create their churches based on their own interpretation of Christianity.

 

[po18guy]

What amuses me is the steadfast refusal of many denominations to hold to a creed. Instead, they publish their “statement of beliefs” - which is a creed. They simply want control over their own creed.

 

[ltwin]

What amuses me is the steadfast refusal of many denominations to hold to a creed. Instead, they publish their “statement of beliefs” - which is a creed. They simply want control over their own creed.

Well, the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed would not do a good job of distinguishing the denominations from each other since most Christians are within that theological tradition anyway. And that is what the creeds were designed to do, distinguish orthodoxy from heresy.

So, there is a very good reason for churches to offer newer confessional statements that clearly delineate their beliefs against competing churches. That’s really not a problem from my point of view. I do have a problem with churches going out of their way to make vague, simplistic and essentially useless “statements of belief” that don’t actually tell me what they believe, besides something about Jesus.

 

[Pup7]

What about a “conscience clause” where someone is perplexed and is not sure if they believe a certain article of the Creed or not? Does anyone truly understand what they “believe” when they first start out on the Christian journey in earnest?

Even Mother Teresa had doubt.

No, I don’t think anyone understands when they’re first starting out at all. And I think that’s okay. My dad was a cradle Catholic - 12 years of Catholic school (there was no kindergarten back then) and I can remember him saying, “You know, I never give much of it a second thought, but if I overthink the Trinity, I’m in trouble.”

But doubt? Yes, I think we’re allowed to doubt. I think that doubting and questioning one’s faith from time to time is like being scared in a foxhole: fear usually keeps you safe and doubt can lead you to the answers.

It’s not if they the UMC were saying, “We are right and you are wrong.” They do say…Affirmations help us come to our own understanding of the Christian faith. They affirm our unity in Christ with those followers who first wrote them, the many generations who have recited them before us and those who will recite them after we have gone.

Yes - and by then qualifying that with “but you’re not required to believe them” it just seems to contradict what they just said. If you’re affirming your faith and aligning yourselves with the people who have recited before…sounds to me like you ought to believe it.

Seeing them say that as forthright as they did sat really wrong with me.

There’s a difference in saying “I’m not sure” and investigating the answers over saying “yeah, I don’t have to buy that and I’m still a Christian”.

Don’t misunderstand me - I still have a great respect for the Methodist church - I learned a lot about myself and the Christian faith there. I still love my UMC friends from that church as much as I did before I converted. But it’s the way the church is changing and seems to have changed that just didn’t sit well with me, and was what set me on the journey that ended at the Catholic Church.