The authority of the Bible

[Epistemes]

How do we know that we can rely on the Holy Bible? If the Bible has lost and gained certain passages throughout time as a result of scribal error, then how how can we claim the Bible to be inerrant, infallible, and incorrupted?

We do not have the oldest manuscripts, some of the manuscripts we have disagree, and even some of the earliest Canonists disagreed on what was inspired versus what was revealed! Not everybody recognizes the authority of the Church, and so saying, “Because the Councils decreed it so,” does not make it understandable for somebody who could, at first, care less for what such-and-such council said!

And so, what authority does the Bible truly have? And how do we know the Bible has this authority? Where does this authority come from? Is it just a bunch of men in bishops’ robes who say so?

[It’s not that I, personally, express these opinions…but I am looking for answers. If you know of any good websites which deal with these issues, I’d appreciate it]

 

[Verbum]

Hi Epistemes,

The Church has **received **the Bible as the word of God. The Church is the authority for it. Since the Church described the canon of scripture, there has been no substantial change in the text. As a matter, of fact no ancient text has been better preserved than the bible. No ancient text has as many extent manuscripts as the Bible.

Verbum

 

[Verbum]

Hi Epistemes,

By the way what is “Da suae omnia” supposed to mean? It looks like a succession of Latin words but there is no meaning.

Verbum

 

[patg]

How do we know that we can rely on the Holy Bible? If the Bible has lost and gained certain passages throughout time as a result of scribal error, then how how can we claim the Bible to be inerrant, infallible, and incorrupted?

The only authority and validity we can attach to the bible is that which faith provides. There is no way to prove or verify the spiritual aspects of it and not a whole lot to support the rest.

If you know of any good websites which deal with these issues, I’d appreciate it]

Here are some references:
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/index.html
And one specific one:
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_HistTruthFitzmyer.htm

 

[123rock]

If the Bible has lost and gained certain passages throughout time as a result of scribal error, then how how can we claim the Bible to be inerrant, infallible, and incorrupted?

The oldest Greek manuscripts are 98/99% textually consistent. Yes, there are “biggies” like Mark 16:9-20, and Acts 8:36, but we fairly have the Bible that was written. This has nothing to do with errancy, only with revision.

We do not have the oldest manuscripts, some of the manuscripts we have disagree, and even some of the earliest Canonists disagreed on what was inspired versus what was revealed! Not everybody recognizes the authority of the Church, and so saying, “Because the Councils decreed it so,” does not make it understandable for somebody who could, at first, care less for what such-and-such council said!

Manuscripts almost always disagree, and yes we do have the oldest manuscripts, but only on a textual basis. Even the most regurgitated New Testaments have the same context for salvation. The councils simply legalized what was already confirmed.

How do we know that we can rely on the Holy Bible?

Yes, that is the question, and us Christians are trying to show that.

 

[Epistemes]

So, does any religious text have no authority other than the subjective authority instilled into it? That really appears to be the gist of the answers I’m seeing…

 

[Della]

So, does any religious text have no authority other than the subjective authority instilled into it? That really appears to be the gist of the answers I’m seeing…

No. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit whereas all other religious texts are the words of men. How do we know this? Because of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy from both the Old and New Testaments. Also, Christ’s Incarnation, Death and Resurrection ensure that the words of the Bible are “God-breathed” and not merely the thoughts of men. No other religion in the world can make such a bold claim.

 

[patg]

So, does any religious text have no authority other than the subjective authority instilled into it? That really appears to be the gist of the answers I’m seeing…

Let’s assume a “religious text” is a document whose primary purpose is to address faith and morals and to act as a “lens” - a means to see God better. While the text may contain historic, scientific, or other types of comments as part of a narrative, those items are not the primary focus of the document.

Since the focus of the text is on things outside the natural world of the reader (faith, the nature of God, miracles, etc), there is no way to verify its authority except by relying on one’s faith that it is correct. You might say that you are relying on The Church to tell you that BUT that is just a statement of faith in the Church being correct.

The human tools for verifying accuracy, authority, and reliablilty deal with our world - they do not have any way of dealing with the supernatural. For example, history and archeology can tell you that a certain ancient city was destroyed but there is no way for any academic tool to determine or even indicate that God directly intervened in that destruction to punish the people or save the Jews.

Historical records may strongly indicate that Jesus lived, taught, and died but it is impossible for anyone to determine that He died for our salvation or that He rose from the dead - these are supernatural concepts outside the realm of history or any other human experience. Again, such a thing is only believable based on faith (or on the evident faith of others in whom you place faith).

Anyone, including you or I, can write a story which fulfills prophecies, especially when we write long after the events and there is no way to objectively investigate or verify the events. Again, it is entirely, completely dependent upon faith.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Della,

No. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit whereas all other religious texts are the words of men. How do we know this? Because of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy from both the Old and New Testaments. Also, Christ’s Incarnation, Death and Resurrection ensure that the words of the Bible are “God-breathed” and not merely the thoughts of men. No other religion in the world can make such a bold claim

That sounds very much like the Protestant justification for the Bible, since they do not accept the authority of the Church. Essentially, we believe in the Bible, because Jesus and His apostles did. He quoted from it, he said he came to fulfill it. And we believe Jesus and in Jesus because he resurrected from the dead. You allude to it in your last argument. But the Church still has to intervene to determine which books are the word of God.

The internal criteria you cite may reinforce our belief, but they do not prove the truth of the Bible.

Verbum

 

[Della]

Hi Della,

That sounds very much like the Protestant justification for the Bible, since they do not accept the authority of the Church. Essentially, we believe in the Bible, because Jesus and His apostles did. He quoted from it, he said he came to fulfill it. And we believe Jesus and in Jesus because he resurrected from the dead. You allude to it in your last argument. But the Church still has to intervene to determine which books are the word of God.

The internal criteria you cite may reinforce our belief, but they do not prove the truth of the Bible.

Verbum

Well, even Protestants get some things right. And I was attempting to answer the OP’s broader question of what separates the Bible from all other religious texts in a way I felt he might be able to relate to.

 

[Epistemes]

Then how exactly is evangelism supposed to proceed?

Without faith in the Church, why should there be faith in the Bible? If there’s no faith in the Bible, why should there be faith in the Church?

If I were to say, the Church is a man-made institution and the Bible is a man-made book, then are we Catholics just leaving it at that with no argument, or do you actually say something?

 

[HEAVY_HAND]

Without faith in the Church, why should there be faith in the Bible? If there’s no faith in the Bible, why should there be faith in the Church?

If I were to say, the Church is a man-made institution and the Bible is a man-made book, then are we Catholics just leaving it at that with no argument ?...

Well, No; but that’s a good question, Epi…If we are left with only those two witnesses, then we would be no different than the claims of Islam…
And The Apostle John was very concerned with that very point…the point of ‘bearing witness’ to the Truth by showing that the source of authority was in God …How? By showing that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, and thus the source of all truth.(espec. in Ist epistle of Jn.)

First, let me say, Della gave an excellent post on the acts of Jesus (and fulfillment of prophecy) bearing witness that He was the Truth; and Verbum also in stating that the Church bears witness by recognizing the inspiration of those Canon books.

But as you allude…that is not all… there is some(thing) else God has left here on earth to bear witness…

St John points to the last one here: “And **it is the (Holy) Spirit that bears witness, **because the Spirit is Truth”. (I John 5:6)

He continues…“For if we receive the witness of men, the witness of (the Spirit of) God is greater…” In other words, receiving what the men of the Church say is one thing, but getting that truth from God is EVEN BETTER.
He continues…"…For this (the Holy Spirit) IS the WITNESS (from) God, which He has testified of His Son".

So how do we get the witness of the truth from the Spirit?

John makes an amazing statement in the very next verse:
" He that believes on the Son of God has witness WITHIN HIMSELF".

How so? Simple…It is because the Spirit of God himself DWELLS WITHIN us…
As John writes: "Hereby we KNOW that we dwell in Him AND HE IN DWELLS IN US, because He has given us of His Spirit"

It is an amzing thing that God is not so insecure as to be afraid to dwell inside those who believe in Jesus…in order that they might have the witness of Himself within. ( In fact it is by the indwelling Spirit that we can recognize the truth of inspired Scripture).

This is exactly what Jesus said before he ascended…"And I will pray the Father and He will send you another Comforter (Paraclete) (referring to the Holy Spirit), that he may abide with you, even the Spirit of Truth…for he dwells with you, AND SHALL BE WITHIN YOU". - Jesus (John 14: 16-17)

And again:
“But when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, whom the Father shall send in my name, **he shall teach you all things **and bring to your remembrance the things I have said”. -Jesus (Jn. 14:26)

Therefore as to your question about how to bear witness, the necessity of the Holy Spirit is evident, even as explained by Jesus here:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth,…he shall tesify of me, and you also SHALL BEAR WITNESS". (Jn.15:26)

Hope that helps. Good question! God bless…

Heavy Hand

 

[MTD]

Without faith in the Church, why should there be faith in the Bible? If there’s no faith in the Bible, why should there be faith in the Church?

Our faith in the Bible is dependent on our faith in the Church. The Bible means nothing without the Church.

If I were to say, the Church is a man-made institution and the Bible is a man-made book, then are we Catholics just leaving it at that with no argument, or do you actually say something?

It is all based on the theological virtue of faith. We do not produce faith of ourselves; it is a pure gift from God. Of course, He does use reason, miracles, etc. to help us embrace that gift, but faith is still essentially a gift from God.

I suppose that coming from a Protestant background, you have come to the Catholic Faith because of your faith in the Bible. But that is actually the reverse of the proper ordering of these things; in fact, it is one reason why Protestants have it wrong. Christ didn’t give the Church to the Bible, so to speak, but the Bible to the Church. And the Church possesses the whole Deposit of Faith whereas the Bible only reveals a part of that Deposit. Not only that, but the Bible cannot be interpreted correctly without the Church, which is given the guidance of the Holy Spirit to interpret correctly the work inspired by the same Holy Spirit.

Maria