The Authority of the Catholic Church

[Charlemagne_III]

Do you believe in the the resurrection of “Poompavai from an urn of bones and ashes in old Kapaleeshwarar Temple at the location of the current San Thome Basilica?” [1]

1 (source: Wikipedia: Resurrection)

This does not answer the question I asked you?

“What would be really extraordinary would be the claim that the apostles all lied about their witness to the resurrection. Do you have any [ordinary or] extraordinary evidence to back up such a claim?”

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Well, it is pretty clear by this time that Counterpoint is a troll, one of several appearing on this forum.

My answer to all the trolls.

We know God exists simply from looking at the universe, its beauty, its order, its coordinate, inter cooperative systems ( everything works together to the benifit of everything else ), the unfolding, fruitful evolution of beings and systems, the grandure of it all. And we have convincing philosophical proofs for his existence from Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and the Muslim and Jewish philosophers.

And since God exists, it makes sense that he would Reveal himself and his purposes.
It is an historical fact that the Jews claimed a Divine Revelation as recorded in the sacred writings of their people, revealing a tree thousand year history of the unfolding word of God through their Kings, fathers, and prophets. This revelation foretold the coming of a Messiah, fortelling the time and place of his birth.

Further veracity of this Revelation to the ancient Israelites is that many of the peoples, places, and events mentioned in their writings have been historically verified, and continue to be verified to this day - Ramses, Jericho, Urr, Babylon, Cyrus, Salem, the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, etc.

And when the Christ was born, he fullfilled hundreds of Old Testament prophacies, he was everything the Old Testament told us he would be.

Hundreds of witnesses testified to his birth, teaching, death, and Resurrection and Ascension, the calling of the Apostles, and his establishment of a Church " …which shall remain to the end of time…"

And for two thousand years this Church has remained faithful to his Word.

And finally we have the inner consistancy, grandure, and holiness of the Scriptures, Old and New. It is a work unsurpassed in human history, to which nothing compares, because it tells a story which could not have been from human hands, and reveals a spiritual vision and morality never heard of in the annuals of history. It lifts the spirit in every way, leading one to say, " This is of God. "

My thanks to the trolls for giving us a chance witness to the Truth.

Linus2nd

 

[fhansen]

How did you personally come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church holds religious authority? Why are you placing your faith in the Catholic magisterium? What exactly is your rationale for holding such a belief? Can you rationally justify it?

Note: This is a philosophy forum (or, at least, it purports to be one). So, I expect a rational argument. If you did not arrive at your belief rationally, then just say so.

I didn’t always. I started out Catholic, left the church for many years and became Christian by studying the bible mainly. Later I began to agree with the CC on her teachings which included her understanding of scripture as well, of course. With the wide diversity of Christian beliefs, all based on scripture alone, it became apparent that an authority would be necessary in order to guarantee right understanding of Gods revelation to man. That left only the ancient, historical churches, east and west, that could lay claim to being the church God established at the beginning, churches that claimed authority already outside of scripture, alone.

 

[petra22]

But the Church says that Christ is God incarnate. So, your reasoning appears to be circular.

Christ spoke to Saint Paul with actions and words that he could not deny… It has been like that all through the history of the church. Jesus Christ has not left us alone, as HE promised. He gives the authority to the church through his actions, words and gifts of the spirit…

 

[Counterpoint]

Christ spoke to Saint Paul with actions and words that he could not deny… It has been like that all through the history of the church. Jesus Christ has not left us alone, as HE promised. He gives the authority to the church through his actions, words and gifts of the spirit…

The bottom line is that your argument is based on circular reasoning.

 

[Counterpoint]

We know God exists simply from looking at the universe, its beauty, its order, its coordinate, inter cooperative systems ( everything works together to the benifit of everything else ), the unfolding, fruitful evolution of beings and systems, the grandure of it all. And we have convincing philosophical proofs for his existence from Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and the Muslim and Jewish philosophers.

Just because we may have a compelling argument to justify a belief in God’s existence does not qualify as a compelling argument to justify a belief in the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[Counterpoint]

I didn’t always. I started out Catholic, left the church for many years and became Christian by studying the bible mainly. Later I began to agree with the CC on her teachings which included her understanding of scripture as well, of course. With the wide diversity of Christian beliefs, all based on scripture alone, it became apparent that an authority would be necessary in order to guarantee right understanding of Gods revelation to man. That left only the ancient, historical churches, east and west, that could lay claim to being the church God established at the beginning, churches that claimed authority already outside of scripture, alone.

Why do you believe the Bible is God’s revelation?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Just because we may have a compelling argument to justify a belief in God’s existence does not qualify as a compelling argument to justify a belief in the authority of the Catholic Church.

It has been compelling enough for billions of people over the past 2,000 years. Of course, there are the odd assortment of cranks that reject it, usually for reasons that have no intellectual content that are based on emotion. pride, prejudice, or sin.

Linus2nd

 

[Counterpoint]

It has been compelling enough for billions of people over the past 2,000 years. Of course, there are the odd assortment of cranks that reject it, usually for reasons that have no intellectual content that are based on emotion. pride, prejudice, or sin.

There a lot more who reject the authority of the Catholic Church than accept it. And even many (if not most) Catholics do not accept the authority of the Catholic magisterium. (Most Catholics are cafeteria-Catholics. They just take what they like and disregard the rest.)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There a lot more who reject the authority of the Catholic Church than accept it. And even many (if not most) Catholics do not accept the authority of the Catholic magisterium. (Most Catholics are cafeteria-Catholics. They just take what they like and disregard the rest.)

You seem to think the Church is a democracy. It isn’t. It is ruled by Christ the King.

Catholics who do not accept that are failing in their responsibility to be good Catholics.

You should not be pointing to failed Catholics as those who carry the standard forward for the Catholic Church. It’s true that many Catholics have come to think like Protestants. That’s another legacy of the disunity brought into the world by Protestantism, which, with respect to Christian unity, collectively acts about as contrary to the will of Christ as it is possible to act.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

By the way, are you going to answer the question I posed in post # 60?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There a lot more who reject the authority of the Catholic Church than accept it. And even many (if not most) Catholics do not accept the authority of the Catholic magisterium. (Most Catholics are cafeteria-Catholics. They just take what they like and disregard the rest.)

So you have decided to join the herd of Lemmings running over the cliff.

Linus2nd

 

[fhansen]

Why do you believe the Bible is God’s revelation?

Its subjective, of course, as many things are in life, but I related to it, especially the NT. I recognized an external voice that resonated with an internal one concerning truths the world in general seems to ignore or deny or override or deride.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Why do you believe the Bible is God’s revelation?

I believe it is God’s revelation because it is the only book in the world that talks so convincingly about God’s love for his Creation and for us.

 

[grannymh]

When a person is willing to accept the authority of the Catholic Church, it really does not matter why or how that is accomplished. Acceptance of Catholicism can be personal or it can be public. People who share their reasons, or share their journey, are appreciated, even when they meet opposition. A sincere thank you to these persons.

At times, there will be someone who disrespects an individual’s reasoning for accepting Catholicism. Sometimes, there is disrespect of the Catholic Church, which, unfortunately, may possibly be disrespect for God. That is so very sad.

 

[Netty1]

Well, it is pretty clear by this time that Counterpoint is a troll, one of several appearing on this forum.

I wondered about that when reading the aggressive tone and demands in the initial opening post.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Well, it is pretty clear by this time that Counterpoint is a troll, one of several appearing on this forum.Linus2nd

And perhaps about ready to disappear at this point?

 

[petra22]

Well, it is pretty clear by this time that Counterpoint is a troll, one of several appearing on this forum.

My answer to all the trolls.

We know God exists simply from looking at the universe, its beauty, its order, its coordinate, inter cooperative systems ( everything works together to the benifit of everything else ), the unfolding, fruitful evolution of beings and systems, the grandure of it all. And we have convincing philosophical proofs for his existence from Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and the Muslim and Jewish philosophers.

And since God exists, it makes sense that he would Reveal himself and his purposes.
It is an historical fact that the Jews claimed a Divine Revelation as recorded in the sacred writings of their people, revealing a tree thousand year history of the unfolding word of God through their Kings, fathers, and prophets. This revelation foretold the coming of a Messiah, fortelling the time and place of his birth.

Further veracity of this Revelation to the ancient Israelites is that many of the peoples, places, and events mentioned in their writings have been historically verified, and continue to be verified to this day - Ramses, Jericho, Urr, Babylon, Cyrus, Salem, the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, etc.

And when the Christ was born, he fullfilled hundreds of Old Testament prophacies, he was everything the Old Testament told us he would be.

Hundreds of witnesses testified to his birth, teaching, death, and Resurrection and Ascension, the calling of the Apostles, and his establishment of a Church " …which shall remain to the end of time…"

And for two thousand years this Church has remained faithful to his Word.

And finally we have the inner consistancy, grandure, and holiness of the Scriptures, Old and New. It is a work unsurpassed in human history, to which nothing compares, because it tells a story which could not have been from human hands, and reveals a spiritual vision and morality never heard of in the annuals of history. It lifts the spirit in every way, leading one to say, " This is of God. "

Linus2nd

Thank you Linusthe2nd!

 

[petra22]

Why do you believe the Bible is God’s revelation?

Who in his right mind would make up a story like that? Wouldn’t a person making up a story who wanted his side to be correct make the heroes more like the good guys??? The history of the bible leaves the gory details that most “people” would leave out. For the new testament, wouldn’t you have your hero have a better beginning than being born in a stable with animals and no clothes? Would he have a job and make a living? Wouldn’t the hero convert more people to his way of thinking without having to hang like a thief on a cross until dead???

 

[Counterpoint]

Who in his right mind would make up a story like that? Wouldn’t a person making up a story who wanted his side to be correct make the heroes more like the good guys??? The history of the bible leaves the gory details that most “people” would leave out. For the new testament, wouldn’t you have your hero have a better beginning than being born in a stable with animals and no clothes? Would he have a job and make a living? Wouldn’t the hero convert more people to his way of thinking without having to hang like a thief on a cross until dead???

The reasons for rejecting the authority of the Bible are myriad.

“Criticisms of the Bible”

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The reasons for rejecting the authority of the Bible are myriad.

“Criticisms of the Bible”

Wow! Did you notice the disclaimer at the start of the article?

“This article may need to be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia’s quality standards.”

Is this the best you can do?