the authority question

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nebula

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The reason I’m asking this here is because this question is based in my experiences as an ex Mormon. The primary reason I left the LDS church is due to doctrinal reasons, I realized I was a monotheist and that flatly contradicts basic Mormon theology, but it also left me with an anti-authoritarian bias. I’m hoping you guys can help me out here, there are so many other elements of the RCC which are attractive. What are the best arguments for the necessity of centralized authority when it comes to Christ’s church? I’m sure this is dealt with a lot here with Protestants, so I’m sure there are some well thought out ideas. Thanks!
 
Centralized authority stops people from creating their own religions and churches. This is necessary because Infallibility only extends to the Pope.
 
There are several, in my opinion.

The first being the example of Protestantism. Observe how those denominations without central authority are helpless to establish, learn, or teach doctrine or theology any more because of a lack of authority. If there is no authority, then why pay attention? If you don’t agree with something, leave to found your own ‘church’. Christ would not leave us helpless to find the Truth. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church.

Another being Scriptural, in that St. Peter was given the specific job of being the rock upon which Christ built His Church, and told, three times, St. Peter specifically and only, to 'tend [Christ’s] sheep" or “feed my sheep”.

We could also appeall to Apostolic Succession, found in Scripture, to show the necessity for authority.

Historically we can observe the obedience given to the Bishop of Rome and Bishops in general.
 
It seems you didn’t get a lot of help after all with that question ex mormon. They can only rely on the single catholic verse in the entire bible. Matt. 16: 18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this arock I will build my bchurch; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.

To make it worse, i can interpret it just as much for the LDS side, It was Peter who had the authority of apostleship. With out his authority, it fell.

geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/rc_dex.html
 
It seems you didn’t get a lot of help after all with that question ex mormon. They can only rely on the single catholic verse in the entire bible. Matt. 16: 18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this arock I will build my bchurch; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.
The verse you reference should seem like enough to me. That Long with along with the verse about:
  1. giving Peter the Keys, and
  2. what you bind is bound and what you loose is loosed, and
  3. if your brother sins against you to take it to the Church.
Seriously -
The authority question is one of simple and pure logic. Christ established a church, singular, upon a group of individuals, apostles. They in turn recognized early on that there needed to be a way of determining and disseminating consistant teaching across the church. As pointed out above, the number of protestant denominations is a clear indication of what happens when there is no central authority.
Acts clearly shows that the Church excersized authority by appointing a replacement for Judas, approving the teachings that Paul had been preaching since his conversion, and dealing with the issue of Jewish Dietary Law at the first council of Jeruselum. If the Church was unable to centrally and authoritatively teach and enforce the teachings, what would have become of Christianity in those early days? The days before there was even a written New Testament.

Rawb probably gave the best example of what happens when there is a lack of overall authority. Look at the number of different protestant denominations. Look at all of the different, and conflicting, theologies all claiming to be “Bible Based”. If the Bible alone was all one needed, then why so many different churches? If the written word was all you needed, why didn’t Jesus write an instruction book by His own hand to assure that everyone knew it was His?

Jesus founded a Church upon simple principles and placed that Church into the hands of Men whom He chose. He then gave them the power to build that Church, teach others and pass on His authority through the ages. He gave them the power to bind and loose. He promised He would always be with The Church. He admonished us to take our disagreements to The Church. A church - Singular.
He ordered the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, not write a book and then get out of the way.

The apostles did all that Jesus Commanded. It was, to some extent, their disciples and successors who wrote down the various texts we have in our NT. It was their successors who, in council, gathered, reviewed, codified, copied, disseminated, defended and protected the Bible as we know it from about the year 400 to today. All under the Authority of Christ’s Church, protected by Him and guided by the Holy Spirit.

As a final point I will propose this. Although the Church loves and protects the Bible as the inspired word of God, she recognizes the many writings from the first centuries that are not in the NT yet contain much that is valuable information. In addition there are literally thousands and thousands of scholarly works that have been written from the earliest days until today. A huge storehouse of the collected knowledge of Christ’s Church for 2 millenia.

Because we have the many learned and scholarly men of the magisterium, we have the benefit of their collective mind and deep understanding of all of this information. Why should we, the faithful in the pews, wish to dismiss all of this - the History, the Learning, the developed Theology, the Guidance, of2000 years - Why would we want to dismiss this for just the one book and just our own limited intellect? Why would we want to try and re-invent the wheel?

Peace
James
 
The verse you reference should seem like enough to me. That Long with along with the verse about:
  1. giving Peter the Keys, and
  2. what you bind is bound and what you loose is loosed, and
  3. if your brother sins against you to take it to the Church.
Seriously -
The authority question is one of simple and pure logic. Christ established a church, singular, upon a group of individuals, apostles. They in turn recognized early on that there needed to be a way of determining and disseminating consistant teaching across the church. As pointed out above, the number of protestant denominations is a clear indication of what happens when there is no central authority.
Acts clearly shows that the Church excersized authority by appointing a replacement for Judas, approving the teachings that Paul had been preaching since his conversion, and dealing with the issue of Jewish Dietary Law at the first council of Jeruselum. If the Church was unable to centrally and authoritatively teach and enforce the teachings, what would have become of Christianity in those early days? The days before there was even a written New Testament.

Rawb probably gave the best example of what happens when there is a lack of overall authority. Look at the number of different protestant denominations. Look at all of the different, and conflicting, theologies all claiming to be “Bible Based”. If the Bible alone was all one needed, then why so many different churches? If the written word was all you needed, why didn’t Jesus write an instruction book by His own hand to assure that everyone knew it was His?

Jesus founded a Church upon simple principles and placed that Church into the hands of Men whom He chose. He then gave them the power to build that Church, teach others and pass on His authority through the ages. He gave them the power to bind and loose. He promised He would always be with The Church. He admonished us to take our disagreements to The Church. A church - Singular.
He ordered the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, not write a book and then get out of the way.

The apostles did all that Jesus Commanded. It was, to some extent, their disciples and successors who wrote down the various texts we have in our NT. It was their successors who, in council, gathered, reviewed, codified, copied, disseminated, defended and protected the Bible as we know it from about the year 400 to today. All under the Authority of Christ’s Church, protected by Him and guided by the Holy Spirit.

As a final point I will propose this. Although the Church loves and protects the Bible as the inspired word of God, she recognizes the many writings from the first centuries that are not in the NT yet contain much that is valuable information. In addition there are literally thousands and thousands of scholarly works that have been written from the earliest days until today. A huge storehouse of the collected knowledge of Christ’s Church for 2 millenia.

Because we have the many learned and scholarly men of the magisterium, we have the benefit of their collective mind and deep understanding of all of this information. Why should we, the faithful in the pews, wish to dismiss all of this - the History, the Learning, the developed Theology, the Guidance, of2000 years - Why would we want to dismiss this for just the one book and just our own limited intellect? Why would we want to try and re-invent the wheel?

Peace
James
I think you have some great points in terms of accumulated wisdom. The fact of the matter is that the Bible is not crystal clear and it takes some expertise to really get in there correctly.

But, is diversity of opinion in Protestantism really such a problem? Couldn’t it be that there are simply lots of issues that we aren’t sure about when it comes to God, and the denominations simply represent honest attempts at resolving those diversities best they can? I don’t know that’s such a problem, if a core is established to acknowledge broadly who is a Christian and who is not. It seems like centralized authority can quickly become as much a curse as it can be a blessing.

Thanks for giving me ideas to chew on.
 
The reason I’m asking this here is because this question is based in my experiences as an ex Mormon. The primary reason I left the LDS church is due to doctrinal reasons, I realized I was a monotheist and that flatly contradicts basic Mormon theology, but it also left me with an anti-authoritarian bias. I’m hoping you guys can help me out here, there are so many other elements of the RCC which are attractive. What are the best arguments for the necessity of centralized authority when it comes to Christ’s church? I’m sure this is dealt with a lot here with Protestants, so I’m sure there are some well thought out ideas. Thanks!
Actually, Nebula. “We” DO NOT KNOW why Christ and His Apostles set it up this way! They just did!

I’m not sure that Catholics can actually argue for the necessity of centralized authority because “we” didn’t do it! We can only speak of the BENEFITS that have come from it!

As you may have guessed, Our Lord is a very smart guy. It’s like He knows the past, present and future, or something!😃

:cool:
 
Actually, Nebula. “We” DO NOT KNOW why Christ and His Apostles set it up this way! They just did!

I’m not sure that Catholics can actually argue for the necessity of centralized authority because “we” didn’t do it! We can only speak of the BENEFITS that have come from it!

As you may have guessed, Our Lord is a very smart guy. It’s like He knows the past, present and future, or something!😃

:cool:
deconi,

Fair enough ;). If God set it up that way then God set it up that way, but I think part of determining whether or not it was God who set it up is to see it in action too. I don’t expect it to be perfect, but there should be the benefits you mentioned too ;).
 
The reason I’m asking this here is because this question is based in my experiences as an ex Mormon. The primary reason I left the LDS church is due to doctrinal reasons, I realized I was a monotheist and that flatly contradicts basic Mormon theology, but it also left me with an anti-authoritarian bias. I’m hoping you guys can help me out here, there are so many other elements of the RCC which are attractive. What are the best arguments for the necessity of centralized authority when it comes to Christ’s church? I’m sure this is dealt with a lot here with Protestants, so I’m sure there are some well thought out ideas. Thanks!
Nebula, I think you might find these articles offer some helpful insights into the Church and its authority:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a46.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a131.htm?95c9f400

bringyou.to/apologetics/a44.htm?95c9f400
 
Hi Nebula. Welcome to the forum!

I used to be a Mormon, then got “saved” in an Assembly of God and finally home to Catholicism.

One thing I am very grateful for is the way that my association with the A/G church fell apart. It was incredibly painful to me and also showed me why authority is such a huge issue.

I wasn’t a good Mormon. I rebelled against authority.

Then I had that “freedom of worship” in the A/G church. Which, after a few years time turned into chaos. Where does the buck stop? No one was willing to listen to the congregation when the pastor started preying on the sheep. It was horrible. Even the district came in and did absolutely nothing not even a token slap on the wrist.

So I am Catholic. I love the fact that the BUCK STOPS HERE!
There is authority here that is founded by Jesus. It is not open to individual interpretation. From my own history, I know that my interpretation of scripture and others is faulty.

I’m glad you are with us here!

in Christ
Steph
 
I like the Catholic church and would accept the church except for the fact that many of the doctrines are wrong and many of the traditions are wrong too. I still have a sense that almost all catholics are totally lazy and don’t give a damn about commandments or god’s will. Thats just my experience but i’m sure that’s not the whole case.

I’m still wondering why last sunday, everyone after a 1 hour mass went to the beach, had a barbaque, swam, fished, goofed off and ripped on the priest for cussing in his sermon. Then they talked about how they shouldn’t be doing those things on the Sabbath. Talk about a double standard. And these are die hard catholics.
 
I think you have some great points in terms of accumulated wisdom. The fact of the matter is that the Bible is not crystal clear and it takes some expertise to really get in there correctly.
Very true. One of the the things that so many people fail to understand is that the Bible is not an instruction book, it is a source book. When the Church assembled the NT, it wasn’t like they were trying to put together a “How To” manual. What they were doing was gathering together the best and most authentic materials from as close to Christ Himself as possible. The actual teachings, order of liturgy, and other deeply held Traditions were left out. Thus the Bible becomes a source book within The Church - the Pillar and Foundation of Truth
But, is diversity of opinion in Protestantism really such a problem? Couldn’t it be that there are simply lots of issues that we aren’t sure about when it comes to God, and the denominations simply represent honest attempts at resolving those diversities best they can?
First let’s deal with the term protestantism. By their very name, these churches are protesting something. What is it if it is not the authority of The Church? The result, 500 years later, is not a new and clearer understanding but greater confusion.

Diversity of opinion is not, in and of itself, a problem whether inside The Church or outside. There are many different opinions within the Catholic Church and many debates going on which a quick scan of threads here will show. The Problem comes in when those opinions are not submitted to the authority of the Church.
If we go back in time to any great historical council in any period, even to the Council of Jerusalem, we will find arguing, debates, compromises etc going on. Acts records that there was much debate at Jerusalem until Peter stood and spoke, basically settling the matter. At no time do I think, in any council, or on any vote on any issue was there a 100 percent agreement. However, those who disagreed, submitted their own opinion to the Will of the Holy Spirit expressed in council. This one thing, this willingness to submit is the Church’s greatest structural advantage over the protestants.

If, as the protestants want you to believe, you only need the Bible and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, there might be 3 or 4 or maybe 6 different Christian faiths, with very subtle differences in beliefs. Or their might be a protestant “Coalition” similar to the Orthodox where Ecclesial heads in various areas would lead the protestants and resolve issues with other Ecclesial heads. The Holy spirit cannot be responsible for thousands of different Churches, all independant, all with different interpretations, and All claiming that they are right.
I don’t know that’s such a problem, if a core is established to acknowledge broadly who is a Christian and who is not. It seems like centralized authority can quickly become as much a curse as it can be a blessing.
There is no doubt that The Church has had bad leaders in the past. But those bad leaders could not Change the core beliefs and teachings of the Church. Can the various independant evangelical churches be that sure of what their pastor is teaching? Can they know for sure that he is teaching the same faith that was taught in the year 200 AD?
I don’t say that all protestants are all wrong. Even The Church doesn’t say that. I can only say that, while they may not be all wrong, I am sure they are not all right.
Thanks for giving me ideas to chew on.
Your welcome. Sometimes I just start typing and it seems the spirit tells me what to to type.

Peace
James
 
Very true. One of the the things that so many people fail to understand is that the Bible is not an instruction book, it is a source book. When the Church assembled the NT, it wasn’t like they were trying to put together a “How To” manual. What they were doing was gathering together the best and most authentic materials from as close to Christ Himself as possible. The actual teachings, order of liturgy, and other deeply held Traditions were left out. Thus the Bible becomes a source book within The Church - the Pillar and Foundation of Truth
I agree to some extent. The Bible is not a how to manual. If it were, it would be no different than any other moralistic religious text. It is a story of redemption centered in the Christ and His rescue of a fallen creation. It is about Jesus, first and foremost.
First let’s deal with the term protestantism. By their very name, these churches are protesting something. What is it if it is not the authority of The Church? The result, 500 years later, is not a new and clearer understanding but greater confusion.
Actually, the term does not mean protest of the church 🙂 It was actually first used of Lutherans who protested the Diet of Speyer in 1529 that revoked Lutheran political rights. Has more to do with politics than theology.
If, as the protestants want you to believe, you only need the Bible and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, there might be 3 or 4 or maybe 6 different Christian faiths, with very subtle differences in beliefs.
Which Protestants say this? Certainly not Lutherans, Anglicans, or Reformed.
 
Why does the Catholic church have some of the wierdest traditions. Everything from the robes of the Priesthood to praying to saints.
 
I like the Catholic church and would accept the church except for the fact that many of the doctrines are wrong and many of the traditions are wrong too. I still have a sense that almost all catholics are totally lazy and don’t give a damn about commandments or god’s will. Thats just my experience but i’m sure that’s not the whole case.

I’m still wondering why last sunday, everyone after a 1 hour mass went to the beach, had a barbaque, swam, fished, goofed off and ripped on the priest for cussing in his sermon. Then they talked about how they shouldn’t be doing those things on the Sabbath. Talk about a double standard. And these are die hard catholics.
WOW,
Sounds like some issues need to be addressed.
I hope you will find a “better” example of Catholic on these forums than you seem to be meeting in your life.

I will suggest that you try to ignore “Bad Catholics” since their behavior has nothing whatsoever with your individual salvation. I too see many catholics that appear to be, “just going through the motions”, but this does not prevent me from doing all I can to live a truly Good Christian Like within the Church.
It is Christ present on the Altar, The valid and consistant teachings, the Historical continuity, that draw me and keep me in Christ’s True Church, Not the dress or actions of the other people at mass.

Of course if there are doctrinal issues, perhaps the folks here can help you with those.

Peace
James
 
Most religious people have no concept of Priesthood Authority. In fact, Catholics don’t accept many traditions of the priesthood in the bible. Such as the laying on the hands or the office of Apostleship.
 
I’m still unimpressed with Catholism although they have the best arguement out of every other religion in the world. They are the only ones that can claim any priesthood authority and there are some good things about it, like they have the same doctrine about resurrection as the bible has. Still, there are big red flags. Even if i wanted to be baptized Catholic, there would be so many things i would be against they would probably kick me out of the church for trying to correct them.
 
I agree to some extent. The Bible is not a how to manual. If it were, it would be no different than any other moralistic religious text. It is a story of redemption centered in the Christ and His rescue of a fallen creation. It is about Jesus, first and foremost.
Agreed it does do this. My point (not very clear I guess) was that the church, in assembling the NT was looking more at 1) How close the texts were to Jesus time and to Jesus Himself, and 2) How consistant the texts were with Chruch Tradition as held and taught for 300 some years.
Actually, the term does not mean protest of the church 🙂 It was actually first used of Lutherans who protested the Diet of Speyer in 1529 that revoked Lutheran political rights. Has more to do with politics than theology.
Thanks for the clarification. Does this mean that the term “Protestant Reformation” is not correct either?
Ah you gotta love politics.
Which Protestants say this? Certainly not Lutherans, Anglicans, or Reformed.
Sorry if I am casting too wide a net. My apologies. I suppose I am mainly thinking of the evangelical types.
However, my primary point still stands. If the Holy Spirit is truly leading then there wouldn’t be so many different churches. A couple or half dozen maybe but certainly not as many as there are.

Peace
James
 
I’m still unimpressed with Catholism although they have the best arguement out of every other religion in the world. They are the only ones that can claim any priesthood authority and there are some good things about it, like they have the same doctrine about resurrection as the bible has. Still, there are big red flags. Even if i wanted to be baptized Catholic, there would be so many things i would be against they would probably kick me out of the church for trying to correct them.
Have you ever considered taking an RCIA course just for the information?

Peace
James
 
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