the authority question

[FCEGM]

I like the Catholic church and would accept the church except for the fact that many of the doctrines are wrong and many of the traditions are wrong too. I still have a sense that almost all catholics are totally lazy and don’t give a damn about commandments or god’s will. Thats just my experience but i’m sure that’s not the whole case.

I’m still wondering why last sunday, everyone after a 1 hour mass went to the beach, had a barbaque, swam, fished, goofed off and ripped on the priest for cussing in his sermon. Then they talked about how they shouldn’t be doing those things on the Sabbath. Talk about a double standard. And these are die hard catholics.

I’m wondering what this has to do with the original topic? If you want to discuss the Church’s doctrines then start a thread (where you can perhaps speak to your own authority to reject them). If you want to discuss the lives of Catholics, then do the same.

 

[falisrm]

Ok, to the topic at hand, because there is a major shortage of priests in America, why doesn’t the Catholic church just ordain more priests. The priesthood isn’t something you have to go to school for. Its not a career or a job. Its the authority of god. Why did they turn it into a career?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Agreed it does do this. My point (not very clear I guess) was that the church, in assembling the NT was looking more at 1) How close the texts were to Jesus time and to Jesus Himself, and 2) How consistant the texts were with Chruch Tradition as held and taught for 300 some years.

Agreed.

Thanks for the clarification. Does this mean that the term “Protestant Reformation” is not correct either?
Ah you gotta love politics.

Yes. Lutherans refer to it either as the Reformation or the Lutheran Reformation. Mainly because the other three non-Catholic groups (the Anglican, Reformed, and Anabaptists), in our opinion, didn’t reform anything.

When the Lutheran princes who protested the Diet of Speyer’s decision started being called Protestants by the Catholic princes, several decades later, the Reformed and Anglicans started using the term to show “solidarity” with the Lutheran princes.

Sorry if I am casting too wide a net. My apologies. I suppose I am mainly thinking of the evangelical types.
However, my primary point still stands. If the Holy Spirit is truly leading then there wouldn’t be so many different churches. A couple or half dozen maybe but certainly not as many as there are.

Peace
James

That’s okay. Limitations of the forum after all.

While I agree with you that the Holy Spirit does not lead churches into multiple doctrinal positions, it is a testament to His grace and mercy that the Spirit still leads individual believers who belong to heterodox sects to the truth of Christ and Him crucified; and that is the ultimate purpose of the Spirit. To witness to Christ and bring people to faith in Him.

The fact that Rome, however, has one particular set of teachings over and against other churches is not a testament that it is the true church. Not anymore than Orthodox, Baptist, or Calvinist claims.

 

[falisrm]

Hmm, the RCIA program sounds intrigen although i probably won’t pass the class. Why does the RCIA class cost money? I didn’t know you had to pay for things related to salvation.

 

[FCEGM]

Most religious people have no concept of Priesthood Authority. In fact, Catholics don’t accept many traditions of the priesthood in the bible. Such as the laying on the hands . . …

Oh?

stlouisreview.com/article.php?id=13205

 

[falisrm]

The laying on the hands never occured between the 12 apostles and the first bishops in the catholic church, Otherwise, the bishops would have been ordained Apostles at that time or the Bishops lost the office of apostleship because they never received it.

 

[FCEGM]

Hmm, the RCIA program sounds intrigen although i probably won’t pass the class. Why does the RCIA class cost money? I didn’t know you had to pay for things related to salvation.

RCIA isn’t a pass or fail situation - one either continues on and seeks admittance to the Church or doesn’t. It’s up to the participant. There is no cost involved except perhaps for the cost of any books required. Someone more familiar with the RCIA program can give you more details.

 

[FCEGM]

The laying on the hands never occured between the 12 apostles and the first bishops in the catholic church, Otherwise, the bishops would have been ordained Apostles at that time.

You have many erroneous understandings of the Church, so, as I suggested, you should take this and other issues to individual threads.

 

[falisrm]

What if i wanted to be a priest but i have relations with my wife every other night? Would i be excluded from the priesthood since the priesthood and sex can’t possibly mix?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Ok, to the topic at hand, because there is a major shortage of priests in America, why doesn’t the Catholic church just ordain more priests. The priesthood isn’t something you have to go to school for. Its not a career or a job. Its the authority of god. Why did they turn it into a career?

There is a distinction between the priesthood that resides within all christians (from baptism), and the ministerial priesthood that is ordained and whose primary service is the mass.

Ministerial priests are educated men who must take the time to learn about the faith, and examine their lives to see if the ordained priesthood is really their call. It’s not just a matter of the Church commanding that so-and-so join such-and-such order or become a diocesan priest. The Church has no authority to compel one to follow such a path.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[JRKH]

While I agree with you that the Holy Spirit does not lead churches into multiple doctrinal positions, it is a testament to His grace and mercy that the Spirit still leads individual believers who belong to heterodox sects to the truth of Christ and Him crucified; and that is the ultimate purpose of the Spirit. To witness to Christ and bring people to faith in Him.

Good response re: the leadershiop of the Spirit. However this does not prevent so called minsters from misleading many under the guise of being “Spirit led”. I know of no faith system, or minister, who doesn’t believe he is led by the Spirit.
Thus in the context of this thread, it is the authority of The Church and her consistant teachings that prevents a lot of half baked ideas from misleading people.

The fact that Rome, however, has one particular set of teachings over and against other churches is not a testament that it is the true church. Not anymore than Orthodox, Baptist, or Calvinist claims.

If it were a case of simply comparing sets of beliefs, there may be a case. However, I do not look simply at the belief systems. I’m not from Missouri but I still have to be shown things.
The Catholic Church has the history, continuity, lineage, etc. that sets it apart from any of the protestant Churches in my mind. None can trace themselves back any further than 1500 when there they join with Rome. To me that is the most compelling and convincing argument. That and the continual splitting that goes on in some non-catholic churches.

Peace
James

 

[Prague]

Flaisrm please use better language. (S…w does not belong here.
Thank you very much.

 

[JRKH]

What if i wanted to be a priest but i s---- my wife every other night? Would i be excluded from the priesthood since the priesthood and sex can’t possibly mix?

1. I agree with prague here please control your language.
2. Since priests cannot marry in the RCC your question is moot.
3. It appears you have a huge number of misconceptions re: the Church. I will add my vioce to others who have suggested you start another thread on these topics as we do not want to derail this thread.

Peace
James

 

[CarolinNC]

To Falism:

Why are you so angry at Catholism?

Priests are celibate, they do not marry as a discipline, so that they are able to tend to the Lords flock with singlemindedness, not having to worry about the duty to one’s family.

Priests attend seminary to learn about the faith, the biblical languages and history of the church, etc, in order to serve the flock as best as they can. Even most Ministers in Protestant Churches go to school.

The only charge I have ever heard of with RICA is for materials used. Maybe if you invest money into it you take it more seriously.

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ and holds a very important position, one of guarding the faith, protecting her teachings, praying for and instructing the Lords Flock.

Look at the Church with the eyes of Faith, Hope and Charity, not rage.

God Bless you with a peaceful heart.

 

[falisrm]

Those are the very problems with the Catholic church and they make absolutely no sense. Don’t you see, If the catholic church fixes those errors they make, then they would be closer to god and his principles.

My question is, Why is sex and the priesthood seperated? Sex and family life is what god wants, especially for “righteous” priests.

Celibacy doesn’t bring you closer to god, it has the opposite effect because they deny family life for themselves and god given blessings. Its just another issue the church needs to correct.

 

[water]

Those are the very problems with the Catholic church and they make absolutely no sense. Don’t you see, If the catholic church fixes those errors they make, then they would be closer to god and his principles.

My question is, Why is sex and the priesthood seperated? Sex and family life is what god wants, especially for “righteous” priests.

Celibacy doesn’t bring you closer to god, it has the opposite effect because they deny family for themselves.

I was wondering if you remember what Saint Paul said in regarding to being married and single?

 

[Erich]

Those are the very problems with the Catholic church and they make absolutely no sense. Don’t you see, If the catholic church fixes those errors they make, then they would be closer to god and his principles.

My question is, Why is sex and the priesthood seperated? Sex and family life is what god wants, especially for “righteous” priests.

Celibacy doesn’t bring you closer to god, it has the opposite effect because they deny family life for themselves and god given blessings. Its just another issue the church needs to correct.

Wow, so much misunderstanding. From Celibacy and the Priesthood:

[F]ar from “commanding” marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion” (7:8-9).

It is only because of this “temptation to immorality” (7:2) that Paul gives the teaching about each man and woman having a spouse and giving each other their “conjugal rights” (7:3); he specifically clarifies, “I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another” (7:6-7, emphasis added).

Paul even goes on to make a case for preferring celibacy to marriage: “Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband” (7:27-34).

Paul’s conclusion: He who marries “does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better” (7:38).

Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, “better” than marriage. After Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, “If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry” (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesus’ teaching on the value of celibacy “for the sake of the kingdom”:

“Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (Matt. 19:11–12).

Notice that this sort of celibacy “for the sake of the kingdom” is a gift, a call that is not granted to all, or even most people, but is granted to some. Other people are called to marriage. It is true that too often individuals in both vocations fall short of the requirements of their state, but this does not diminish either vocation, nor does it mean that the individuals in question were “not really called” to that vocation. The sin of a priest doesn’t necessarily prove that he never should have taken a vow of celibacy, any more than the sin of a married man or woman proves that he or she never should have gotten married. It is possible for us to fall short of our own true calling.

Celibacy is neither unnatural nor unbiblical. “Be fruitful and multiply” is not binding upon every individual; rather, it is a general precept for the human race. Otherwise, every unmarried man and woman of marrying age would be in a state of sin by remaining single, and Jesus and Paul would be guilty of advocating sin as well as committing it.

 

[RobHom]

Those are the very problems with the Catholic church and they make absolutely no sense. Don’t you see, If the catholic church fixes those errors they make, then they would be closer to god and his principles.

That they make no sense to you…is a problem you have to resolve. We do not see any problem there.

My question is, Why is sex and the priesthood seperated? Sex and family life is what god wants, especially for “righteous” priests.

Are you proclaiming that your “interpretation” is superior to that of the Church?

Celibacy doesn’t bring you closer to god, it has the opposite effect because they deny family life for themselves and god given blessings. Its just another issue the church needs to correct.

So you claim despite mountains of empirical evidence that denies your claims… Do you have any thing to support your claims, that goes beyond your “opinions”?

 

[RobHom]

Again, "falisrm’…

What is the name of the “religion” you wish to “open dialogue” about?

 

[Erich]

The laying on the hands never occured between the 12 apostles and the first bishops in the catholic church, Otherwise, the bishops would have been ordained Apostles at that time or the Bishops lost the office of apostleship because they never received it.

That Timothy was in fact a bishop is clear when Paul says to him, ‘Lay hands on no man lightly’ [1 Tim. 5:22], and again, ‘Which was given you with the laying on of hands of the presbytery’ [1 Tim. 4:14], and presbyters would not have ordained a bishop.