"The Baha'i Faith"

[DavidMark]

"…we feel that bahaullah took a alittle bit from here and there (from Church and from Islam) and made up his religion. Please explain. Did bahaullah claim to be the secong coming of Jesus? Let us know in his exact words "

O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muhammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muhammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayan to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayan! (The Book of the Báb) If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muhammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 101)

 

[DavidMark]

(Elijah said) **“Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel…” **1 Kings 18:19

How John the Baptist is the Return of Elijah
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:11-15

How the Báb is the Return of Elijah
**With the transference of the remains of the Báb—Whose advent marks the return of the Prophet Elijah—to Mt. Carmel, and their interment in that holy mountain, not far from the cave of that Prophet Himself, the Plan so gloriously envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, in the evening of His life, had been at last executed, and the arduous labors associated with the early and tumultuous years of the ministry of the appointed Center of His Covenant crowned with immortal success. **(SE, GPB, p. 276)

Bab claimed to be the mahdi or claimed to be John the Baptist?
How the Bab is the return of John the Baptist

**He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im,[He Who will Arise] your Guide, your Mihdi,[Guide] your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things. **(The Bab, SWB, p. 139)

**He (the Báb) is the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí‘ahs, the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians… **(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 57

If Bahaullah claimed to be the Messiah, in exact words? Did he say that he was the promised Messiah who was supposed to come, who was awaited by all nations?
Say: O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. (Baha’u’llah, GWB, p. 38)

Baha’u’llah said: Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt.

Will that satisfy? It is a mystery! Halleluyahweh!
Not everything from the past can be used as a touchstone, because it is NEW!

 

[Eucharisted]

I pray this email finds you all in good health.

I was wondering if anyone has had any encounters with a non-catholic religion called the “Baha’i Faith”? I am currently a student at a university and have encountered and dialogued with many different types of religions. This one in particular has given me a little more of a headache and is tougher to break down due to my lack of biblical and doctrinal knowledge within the Catholic Chruch. They claim to have 6.5 million members and say they have been growing fast. I was just wondering if anyone else has had encounters with this “Baha’i Faith” and if so how has it gone?

Paz de Christo,

Mateo

I’ve studied it, somewhat. They do a lot of emphasis on oneness: One God, one humanity, one faith, etc. It’s unity taken to an extreme. Plus, they don’t regard Jesus as God, so, there’s that too.

 

[planten]

(Elijah said) **“Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel…” **1 Kings 18:19

How John the Baptist is the Return of Elijah
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:11-15

That is understood. Those are the words pf Jesus and they are true.

How the Báb is the Return of Elijah
**With the transference of the remains of the Báb—Whose advent marks the return of the Prophet Elijah—to Mt. Carmel, and their interment in that holy mountain, not far from the cave of that Prophet Himself, the Plan so gloriously envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, in the evening of His life, had been at last executed, and the arduous labors associated with the early and tumultuous years of the ministry of the appointed Center of His Covenant crowned with immortal success. **(SE, GPB, p. 276)

It Does not mean anything to me. It does not say that bab was the Elijah. Bahaullah may have thought that Bab was the Elijah. Where did Bab himself say that he was the Elijah?

Bab claimed to be the mahdi or claimed to be John the Baptist?
How the Bab is the return of John the Baptist

**He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im,[He Who will Arise] your Guide, your Mihdi,[Guide] your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things. **(The Bab, SWB, p. 139)

**Whose words are these? They do not seem to be the words of Bab. It doe snot convey any meaning because it is not known who is talking here. Please do not use the brief marks for the references.

I am still looking for any words from Bab that he was the Elijah or he was the Mahdi. Did he make any such claim?**

**He (the Báb) is the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí‘ahs, the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians… **(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 57

This is definitely not bab speaking. It seems to be some one else (say Bahaullah) speaking about Bab that he was the Mahdi and he was the Elijah. That is not fair. Why not Bab say something about his claim, himslef?

Questions:If Bahaullah claimed to be the Messiah, in exact words? Did he say that he was the promised Messiah who was supposed to come, who was awaited by all nations?

Say: O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. (Baha’u’llah, GWB, p. 38)

Baha’u’llah said: Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt.

Please read my question in blue above and your reply in box. Is there any relevance?. Bahaullah said and bahaullah said, has no meaning. Where does Bab claim that he is Imam Mahdi? Where does he claim that he is Elijah?

Will that satisfy? It is a mystery! Halleluyahweh!
Not everything from the past can be used as a touchstone, because it is NEW!

You can surely see for yourself that you have not replied well. There is no relevance and no word to support the claim that bab was Mahdi or Elijah. There is no such thing in your reply. So Bab was nothing. He was killed for his bad politics in Iran.

 

[DavidMark]

I’ve studied it, somewhat. They do a lot of emphasis on oneness: One God, one humanity, one faith, etc. It’s unity taken to an extreme. Plus, they don’t regard Jesus as God, so, there’s that too.

Eucharisted: Thank you for joining this thread. It doesn’t seem like you read very far…like a swimmer who only dipped a toe in the sea. Jesus is God…but not the first or last appearance. Moses was God to Pharaoh, and this Glory is God at the Parousia.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)

The teachings of Jesus are in a concentrated form. Men do not agree to this day as to the meaning of many of His sayings. His teachings are as a flower in the bud. Today, the bud is unfolding into a flower! Bahá’u’lláh has expanded and fulfilled the teachings, and has applied them in detail to the whole world.(Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 92)

 

[DavidMark]

Dear planten: We each have our own style, and reply however we want to. You certainly have your own style. I do not put everything I have on the table at one time.
If you look closely, you will see that I quoted the Báb’s own words that He was the Mihdi.
Why should He have to say I am John (who was also Elijah)? He did the job.
Why didn’t Elijah say I will be John the Baptist?
Also, some quotes are from Shoghi Effendi, the designated Guardian (Vali’yyul-Amrullah).
If you want more about this, I will give you a part of something else. In the meantime, expand your search about Baha’i faith to the thousands of other sources.
Surely, I am not the only tree to pluck! If I feel like not answering, then I don’t answer.

This Revelation, and the Revelation before it, bear an exact resemblance to the dispensations of (John) the son of Zechariah and (Jesus) the Spirit. In some of the revealed Tablets, this has been mentioned. Note well: This was the Revelation that appeared in order to prepare the people of the world. It arrived at a time when the world and its inhabitants had perished.
That Person came, Who had remained alive, in order to bestow eternal life and to ensure that it persisted, and to favor others with the water of life. What was revealed in the Bayán has been established.
This is that prophesied Beauty Who, He said, “will come after Me even though He is before Me.” He is the call that was raised between the earth and heaven, so that you might make straight and build up the stations of God, that is, the hearts. That was the same Call that the son of Zechariah raised before the Spirit came. “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.” [Mt. 3:3]
If a woman give birth to a viper, that is better than that a man should be born and become known in the Kingdom of God as an enemy. Blessed be the barren in that Day and woe unto mothers with babes at the breast. ~Bahá’u’lláh, from Tablet of the Son, Juan Cole’s Provisional Translation

 

[DavidMark]

Jen (who does not grace the Prophets name with a capital because she thinks she knows beter than Him) said “… i was trying to demonstrate a key fault to the baha’i faith in that they gloss over/deny/reinterpret mohammed’s cruelty to justify him as being a supposed messenger of God.”
What about Moses and the prophets of Israel, who authorized the complete distruction of Canaanite communities, including children and cattle. Think about that. You cannot say Well that was just before Jesus.
Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Another point is that Catholics need to be reminded about the oneness of God.

For if God speaks a word today that comes to be on the lips of all the people, before and after, that word will be new, if you only think about it. Consider the word, “monotheism,” about which all the manifestations of the Eternal Truth have spoken in each dispensation, and which all the adherents of the various religions have asserted. Nevertheless, in each dispensation it is an innovation, and its novel character can never be withdrawn from it. God breathes into each word he speaks a new spirit, and the breezes of life from that word waft upon all things outwardly and inwardly. Again, for how long and until what age and era can the traces remain visible, of the divine verses revealed by the Manifestations of both the inner soul and of the farthest horizons?(From Baha’u’llah’s Tablet of the Son, Juan Cole’s provisional translation)

 

[Holly3278]

Bahai’s believe in all of the prophets from Adam to Noah to Jesus to Muhammad to Baha’Ullah. Of course, we as Catholics know that Jesus was more than just a prophet. He was the son of God. We also know that Muhammad and Baha’Ullah are not true prophets. Here are some links so you can learn more about the Bahai faith from non-biased sources:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai

religioustolerance.org/bahai.htm

I would be somewhat aware, though, that Religioustolerance.org can sometimes be biased. I am not sure if they are biased in their articles on the Bahai faith but they are biased on some other things.

 

[DavidMark]

Hi Holly, Thank you for joining this thread. There are a small handful of people who feel it’s a subject worth discussing. The others come and have a thrust and retreat.

It is not possible to be a Jew 2000 years after Jesus without subtle strategies of denial in place to explain away the Sonship of Jesus; likewise the Christians and Muslims cannot continue as usual if other divine Manifestations have come. It is all about faith.
But this is an age, Baha’is believe, that two great Manifestations have appeared in rapid succession, similar to the appearance of John the Baptist, before Jesus…
**"… among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist" **(Matt. 11:11)

And we know there are two classes of prophets, the Law-Givers Who give the Word of God, and the promoters who defend and establish the Word of the Founder of the Dispensation they live in, such as Isaiah and Jeremiah, who were under the aegis of Moses. The Muslims call these two the Rusul and the Nabi. They have reason not to expect any more nabíyyín; but there can never be an end to Revelations from God.

In some ways you can see the reflection of all the previous Messengers in this new one; but some things that have not appeared in the world before are the Covenant, the Administrative Order of Bahá’u’lláh. It is as it was in the days of Noah. Instead of a few peoples bodies and some animals, this Ark is for life itself. A danger of unprecedented proportions threatens Earth, because of the perfidious wickeness of its people.
If the outpourings of spirit from the Gospel or the Qur’an were sufficient to deal with it, they would have done so by now; but conditions are steadily darkening, and people walk the abyss, blithely unaware, content in their self-assurance, that all will be well with them.

The Universal House of Justice, the only spiritually elected institution of its kind, whose members are chosen by the Bahá’ís of the planet, is only 46 years old, since it first appeared in 1963. It has already demonstrated its perspicacity in dealing with the affairs of the infant Baha’i faith. It will grow gradually, like an embryo, and began to flex its limbs, until it is seen as the "last refuge of a tottering civilization."
So, I take issue with anyone saying that any of the divine Manifestations are not divine, when They have already proved the power of Their tongue, unaided and untaught by humanity, to remake human civilization, time and time again.

 

[planten]

From DavidMark: Dear planten: We each have our own style, and reply however we want to. You certainly have your own style. I do not put everything I have on the table at one time.
If you look closely, you will see that I quoted the Báb’s own words that He was the Mihdi.
Why should He have to say I am John (who was also Elijah)? He did the job.
Why didn’t Elijah say I will be John the Baptist?

** I had asked you about who was saying Bab is mahdi? You had given some paragraphs about Bab being Mahdi. I could not understand who was saying that. Whose words were those?

You said, “He did the job.” Please forget what job was done. We know few things. He (Bab) trampled the Quran under his feet. He declared that the Quranic law was obsolete. He brought his own book of laws and cancelled the Quranic doctrine. He may have done few other bad things because there are reports that he mutinied (revolted against the government). In return, he was killed. Is that all true?

So could we call such a person as a martyr?
I had to write all that because you said, “He did his job.” Was that his job to revolt and get killed?

I am again asking you, honestly, if Bab ever claimed that he was awaited Imam Mahdi. Or he may have said that he was the second coming of John the baptist.??

It is no use you making him Imam mahdi, or John Baptist. Please refrain from using such titles freely for your elders.

If you do not know the answer to my question then say so. I will not ask you about Bab. Welcome. Until then, It is my right to ask you about the claim of Bab sahib.**

 

[jen_fla]

david the reason i have retreated is because all you seem to do is answer with words from your prophet or take quotes from the Bible (that you grossly misinterpret to fit to your faith) or quote the quran.

this is circular. i understand that quoting Bible verses to an atheist won’t mean anything to them, but to the baha’i who actually believe Jesus was a messenger of God, i am asking how your faith can justify being one with Christianity. you are trying to tie them together, yet your faith clearly goes against Christ’s teachings. as to other faiths, the muslims don’t seem to buy it and neither do the orthodox Jews. obviously you can believe as you wish, but your faith insults the very religions it is trying to unite. i am not saying the individuals are doing that mind you. if you want to truly understand the Catholic faith read the Catholic Catechism. then you will see that although our faiths have much in common we do not and have never denied that Jesus Christ is God. this teaching was relevant back then as it is today and as it always shall be.

you said:

Another point is that Catholics need to be reminded about the oneness of God.

nonsense! jews, catholics and muslims already know about the oneness of God and have for a very long time before your religion popped up. not once has any of these faiths strayed from that central teaching.

and yes as for the violence in the OT that was for the tribe of israel only and in that time period. that is a topic that is complex and it would require serious study, but this short article helps a bit. and this page.

and yes, i can say that things changed when Christ came. as another poster pointed out he split time, so radical were his teachings for mankind. it doesn’t make sense that mohammed would bring back the practice of stoning when there were Christians living in his time and location. they did not need a less compassionate lesson to be taught to them.

they taught two different things. we believe Christ is God, whereas muslims believe He is a prophet. no matter how hard you try to twist these faiths to bend to yours, you simply can’t do it. you can not reconcile these and other large issues by quoting someone that claims something different.

i think you will have to admit that there is no record or teaching in the islamic faith that agrees with your teaching that mohammed said he was Jesus.

don’t you think that if he was wrong about that then he could be wrong about other things? but you might answer, “but he said it, so it must be true.”

ah, well i am sorry if i ruffled your feathers. i mean no disrespect to our baha’i friends (or muslim friends), and while i do respect you, i do not respect a faith that goes against the teachings of Christ.

although you might be ONE in many of your beliefs with the jehovah witnesses.

i know you must be grumbling at me!

respecting your good heart,
jen

:hug1:

 

[DavidMark]

Hi Jen! You had the initiative to write this morning!

As a change of pace, I want to share some interesting things I learned about JRR Tolkien.
I read his books when Ballantine first published them in the mid 60s, and illustrated some of the characters, and sent them to him, and still have a thank-you letter stamped with his seal and sent by his secretary.I find that Tolkien’s writings, while not purporting to be scripture, are written so nobly that they feel like scripture; wheras the Book of Mormon was claimed to be scripture, but may be a fiction based on the Bible, like Orson Scott Card’s sci-fi, based on the Book of Mormon itself!

In Tolkien’s mythology Eru Ilúvatar (God) created Arda (“Earth” in Persian) and there were two wonderful Trees, just as the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the Tree of Life grew in the Garden of Eden. The parallels between the images of Tolkien and Bahá’í Scripture are noteworthy.

In the Bábí-Bahá’í Revelations, mention is made of the Founders ‘Alí Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh as the Twin Holy Trees. The relatives of the first are the Afnán (Leaves), and the descendants of the second, the Aghsan (Branches).

In 1911, when ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was traveling in Egypt and Europe, Tolkien enjoyed hiking in the Swiss Alps. In 1912, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá warned of the outbreak of Armageddon in two years. Tolkien was to fight in that war. On the front in Palestine, General Allenby, alerted by the British Foreign Office, which had been entreated by the Bahá’ís, informed them when ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was liberated from the Turkish yoke.

Shoghi Effendi was instructed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to continue his education at Oxford, Balliol College, in the autumn of 1920. At this same time, JRR Tolkien was appointed Reader in English Language at Leeds University, and saw the birth of his second son, Michael. There is no evidence the two ever encountered one another, or even heard of each other.

Note the similarities between the following Bahá’í passages, and those from Tolkien:
**Salutation and praise, blessing and glory rest upon that primal branch of the Divine and Sacred Lote-Tree, grown out, blest, tender, verdant and flourishing from the Twin Holy Trees; the most wondrous, unique and priceless pearl that doth gleam from out the twin surging seas… **(Abdu’l-Baha, referring to the Guardian Shoghi Effendí, descended from the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh, BWF, p. 439)

Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground. But Ungoliant sucked it up, and going then from Tree to Tree she set her black beak to their wounds, till they were drained; and the poison of Death that was in her went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf; and they died. (Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor, p. 76)

**O thou who hast turned away from God! Wert thou to look with the eye of fairness upon the Divine Lote-Tree, thou wouldst perceive the marks of thy sword on its boughs, and its branches, and its leaves, notwithstanding that God created thee for the purpose of recognizing and of serving it.(**Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209)

There came a day when Gandalf could not be found, and the Companions wondered what was going forward. But Gandalf took Aragorn out from the City by night, and brought him to the southern feet of Mount Mindolluin; and there they found a path made in ages past that few now dared to tread…
Then Aragorn turned, and there was a stony slope behind him running down from the skirts of the snow; and as he looked he was aware that alone there in the waste a growing thing stood. And he climbed to it, and saw that out of the very edge of the snow there sprang a sapling tree no more than three foot high… Then Aragorn cried: ‘We! utúvienyes! I have found it! Lo! here is a scion of the Eldest of Trees! But how comes it here? For it is not itself yet seven years old.’
And Gandalf coming looked at it, and said: ‘Verily this is a sapling of the line of Nimloth the fair; and that was a seedling of Galathilion, and that a fruit of Telperion on many names, Eldest of Trees. Who shall say how it comes here in the appointed hour?..Remember this. For if ever a fruit ripens, it should be planted, lest the line die out of the world. Here it has lain hidden on the mountain, even as the race of Elendil lay hidden in the wastes of the North. Yet the line of Nimloth is older far than your line, King Elessar.’ (Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Book III The Return of the King, p. 949-950)

‘Abdu’l-Bahá said this about Faith in the world, and it is so reminiscent of the passage from Tolkien:
**
Our meaning is this: the religion of God is one, and it is the educator of humankind, but still, it needs must be made new. When thou dost plant a tree, its height increaseth day by day. It putteth forth blossoms and leaves and luscious fruits. But after a long time, it doth grow old, yielding no fruitage any more. Then doth the Husbandman of Truth take up the seed from that same tree, and plant it in a pure soil; and lo, there standeth the first tree, even as it was before.** (SWA, p. 52)

Ponder the words of Jesus addressed to His disciples, as He sent them forth to propagate the Cause of God. In words such as these, He bade them arise and fulfil their mission: ‘Ye are even as the fire which in the darkness of the night has been kindled upon the mountain-top. Let your light shine before the eyes of men. Such must be the purity of your character and the degree of your renunciation, that the people of the earth may through you recognize and be drawn closer to the heavenly Father who is the Source of purity and grace…’ (The Báb, quoting the Gospel, in Nabíl’s The Dawn-Breakers, p. 92)
[The summoning of the Rohirrim by the beacons of fire was depicted very dramatically in Peter Jackson’s film The Return of the King .]

-The meek shall inherit the earth

 

[DavidMark]

Yes, the Báb claimed to be the Mahdi, just like I said.
And Baha’u’llah said the Báb was like John the Baptist.

 

[planten]

Yes, the Báb claimed to be the Mahdi, just like I said.
And Baha’u’llah said the Báb was like John the Baptist.

Thanks DM. Now please show the exact words of Bab that he claimed to be the Mahdi. Bahaullah may have said that Bab was like John the Baptist. Why did he say that?? Did he say it because Bab was killed. Or did Bahaullah say because he got that news from Allah? Please come around and continue…

 

[DavidMark]

Planten: You are too much man! I already posted it. I want to go on to new things, but I will post it for you again. It is from The Kitab-i-Asma’ (The Book of Names):

He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im, your Guide, your Mihdi, your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things.(Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 139)

OK?
Bahá’u’lláh said that the Báb was like John the Baptist because some of the followers of John objected to Jesus coming so soon, just like the Bábís did to Bahá’u’lláh.
But everything the Báb did (as Qa’im) was to prepare for the coming of al-Quyyum (the Self-Subsisting). So Bahá’u’lláh was the return of Imam Husayn to the Shí’ih, the Spirit of Christ to the Christians, and the Lord of Hosts or Everlasting Father to the Jews.

 

[DavidMark]

Jen: I will re-read the Catechism; and I am also reading G.K.Chesterton’s Orthodoxy, which is very witty, and Michael Foley’s Why do Catholics Eat Fish on Friday?
I think Chesterton must have known Tolkien, since they thought along the same lines about the need for romance and mystery.
“Mysticism keeps men sane. As long as you have mystery you have health; when you destroy mystery you create morbidity…The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of what he does not understand…Like the sun at noonday, mysticism explains everything else by the blaze of its own victorious invisibility.”
(from Orthodoxy)

 

[jen_fla]

Hi Jen! You had the initiative to write this morning!

As a change of pace, I want to share some interesting things I learned about JRR Tolkien.
I read his books when Ballantine first published them in the mid 60s, and illustrated some of the characters, and sent them to him, and still have a thank-you letter stamped with his seal and sent by his secretary.I find that Tolkien’s writings, while not purporting to be scripture, are written so nobly that they feel like scripture; wheras the Book of Mormon was claimed to be scripture, but may be a fiction based on the Bible, like Orson Scott Card’s sci-fi, based on the Book of Mormon itself!

i had to delete the rest of your post due to length restrictions.

i would love to see those illustrations!!! that is very cool! do you have them posted online anywhere?

you might enjoy this one page read.

*"Even among fantasy devotees who recognize Tolkien as the father of the modern genre, few realize that Tolkien insisted that The Lord of the Rings is “a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.” *

well the bottom line is we could spend years showing how certain beliefs WITHIN various religions are the same. you’ve got no argument from me and like i’ve said clearly we can see that the baha’i have SO much in common with Catholicism. but still, it is crucial to examine what those differences are.

you wrote “the meek shall inherit the earth” which i took as “don’t be so arrogant, woman, to think that only you have the correct religion.” maybe you did not mean that, but simply put i can not be boastful because the teachings of the Holy Spirit did not come from me. Christ founded the CC and i am so thankful that i finally realize what an eternal anchor She is. and as has been stated many times before, She recognizes what is Holy in all the world’s religions.

peace.

 

[jen_fla]

Jen: I will re-read the Catechism; and I am also reading G.K.Chesterton’s Orthodoxy, which is very witty, and Michael Foley’s Why do Catholics Eat Fish on Friday?
I think Chesterton must have known Tolkien, since they thought along the same lines about the need for romance and mystery.
“Mysticism keeps men sane. As long as you have mystery you have health; when you destroy mystery you create morbidity…The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of what he does not understand…Like the sun at noonday, mysticism explains everything else by the blaze of its own victorious invisibility.”
(from Orthodoxy)

chesterton is probably my favorite author. fans and critics alike usually walk away blown away.

quoting him from here is relevant to my previous question asking what the baha’i faith could offer that is new and better to Catholicism.

*Nine out of ten of what we call new ideas are simply old mistakes. The Catholic Church has for one of her chief duties that of preventing people from making those old mistakes; from making them over and over again forever, as people always do if they are left to themselves. The truth about the Catholic attitude towards heresy, or as some would say, towards liberty, can best be expressed perhaps by the metaphor of a map. The Catholic Church carries a sort of map of the mind which looks like the map of a maze, but which is in fact a guide to the maze. It has been compiled from knowledge which, even considered as human knowledge, is quite without any human parallel.

There is no other case of one continuous intelligent institution that has been thinking about thinking for two thousand years. Its experience naturally covers nearly all experiences; and especially nearly all errors. The result is a map in which all the blind alleys and bad roads are clearly marked, all the ways that have been shown to be worthless by the best of all evidence: the evidence of those who have gone down them.

On this map of the mind the errors are marked as exceptions. The greater part of it consists of playgrounds and happy hunting-fields, where the mind may have as much liberty as it likes; not to mention any number of intellectual battle-fields in which the battle is indefinitely open and undecided. But it does definitely take the responsibility of marking certain roads as leading nowhere or leading to destruction, to a blank wall, or a sheer precipice. By this means, it does prevent men from wasting their time or losing their lives upon paths that have been found futile or disastrous again and again in the past, but which might otherwise entrap travelers again and again in the future. *

peace be with you, davidmark.

 

[DavidMark]

Jen: Thanks for replying so fully.
No, I didn’t mean anything negative. By saying ‘the meek shall inherit the earth’. I was thinking about the Hobbits. Eru is not referred to much in the LOTR trilogy, but was the source of all things in The Silmarillion. And Eru chose the little people, the meek, to oppose Sauron (lizard-like?) who was of the same rank as Gandalf (a Maiar).

You know ‘catholicity’ itself means broadness, liberality, universality, and in this sense Bahá’í is more catholic than the Catholic Church. We accept the other prophets which came from Abraham, the Covenant God made with Abraham --that his desencedants would be as numerous as the stars or grains of sand. So, twelve “princes” came from Ishmael, namely the 12 Shí’ite Imams, and the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh descended from Katurah, the third wife (Genesis 25:1) as well as the kings of the Sasanian dynasty. Sasan was the son of Cyrus the Great and Rahab bint Pinchas, a Jewess descended from Jesse, David, Solomon, Rehoboam etc. This topic could be more developed; but here are two quotations from the Bahá’í Writings from a word serach on ‘catholicity’. The first is from a non-Baha’i reporter:

No, not a sect, not a part of humanity cut off from all the rest, living for itself and aiming to convert all the rest into material for its own growth; no, not that, but a leaven, causing spiritual fermentation in all religions quickening them with the spirit of catholicity and fraternalism… . . Who shall say but that just as the little company of the Mayflower, landing on Plymouth Rock, proved to be the small beginning of a mighty nation, the ideal germ of a democracy which, if true to its principles, shall yet overspread the habitable globe, so the little company of Bahá’ís exiled from their Persian home may yet prove to be the small beginning of the world-wide movement, the ideal germ of democracy in religion, the Universal Church of Mankind? (Alfred W. Martin, in Appreciations of the Baha’i Faith, p. 22)

The catholicity of spirit which so strongly characterized the Guardian, his complete lack of any breath of prejudice or fanaticism, the sympathy and courtesy that distinguished him so strongly, are all reflected in his letters and messages to such people. He carried on a lengthy correspondence, during the earliest years of his ministry, with Grand Duke Alexander of Russia, whom it was obvious, from the tone of his letters, he liked. He addresses him as: "My true brother in the service cf God ! ", "My dear brother in the love of God ! (Ruhiyyih Khanum, The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, p. 123)

So do we really belong under non-catholic religions?

 

[jen_fla]

Jen: Thanks for replying so fully.
No, I didn’t mean anything negative. By saying ‘the meek shall inherit the earth’. I was thinking about the Hobbits. Eru is not referred to much in the LOTR trilogy, but was the source of all things in The Silmarillion. And Eru chose the little people, the meek, to oppose Sauron (lizard-like?) who was of the same rank as Gandalf (a Maiar).

You know ‘catholicity’ itself means broadness, liberality, universality, and in this sense Bahá’í is more catholic than the Catholic Church. We accept the other prophets which came from Abraham, the Covenant God made with Abraham --that his desencedants would be as numerous as the stars or grains of sand. So, twelve “princes” came from Ishmael, namely the 12 Shí’ite Imams, and the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh descended from Katurah, the third wife (Genesis 25:1) as well as the kings of the Sasanian dynasty. Sasan was the son of Cyrus the Great and Rahab bint Pinchas, a Jewess descended from Jesse, David, Solomon, Rehoboam etc. This topic could be more developed; but here are two quotations from the Bahá’í Writings from a word serach on ‘catholicity’. The first is from a non-Baha’i reporter:

No, not a sect, not a part of humanity cut off from all the rest, living for itself and aiming to convert all the rest into material for its own growth; no, not that, but a leaven, causing spiritual fermentation in all religions quickening them with the spirit of catholicity and fraternalism… . . Who shall say but that just as the little company of the Mayflower, landing on Plymouth Rock, proved to be the small beginning of a mighty nation, the ideal germ of a democracy which, if true to its principles, shall yet overspread the habitable globe, so the little company of Bahá’ís exiled from their Persian home may yet prove to be the small beginning of the world-wide movement, the ideal germ of democracy in religion, the Universal Church of Mankind? (Alfred W. Martin, in Appreciations of the Baha’i Faith, p. 22)

The catholicity of spirit which so strongly characterized the Guardian, his complete lack of any breath of prejudice or fanaticism, the sympathy and courtesy that distinguished him so strongly, are all reflected in his letters and messages to such people. He carried on a lengthy correspondence, during the earliest years of his ministry, with Grand Duke Alexander of Russia, whom it was obvious, from the tone of his letters, he liked. He addresses him as: "My true brother in the service cf God ! ", "My dear brother in the love of God ! (Ruhiyyih Khanum, The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, p. 123)

So do we really belong under non-catholic religions?

yes, you do. it is a fact the baha’i teach things that go against Catholicism. universal means Truth for all, but not being so broad as to include errors.

my friend, you simply can not know how grave a matter it is for your faith to lead Catholics away from the Blessed Sacraments. ask a Catholic friend to take you to Eucharistic adoration. pray with a sincere heart. if you are truly seeking peace, love and worship to the one true God then i do believe you might experience a connection unlike anything you have ever experienced before.

i can tell you that this past Holy Thursday before Easter i saw a golden light (like the flame of a candle but more intense) come out of the Eucharistic Species! there was a second Priest and he held up the Chalice (container to hold the wine that becomes the blood of Christ) and the same light came from that as well! at first i thought well the light could be reflecting off the material of the Chalice, but when i saw the identical light come from the outward appearance of the bread, i knew this was Christ letting me, a rowdy sinner, see something very special.

from your point of view i know that must sound crazy, but all i can do is assure you with all my being it was real.

may the good Lord guide you to where he wants you to be!