J
- Status
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DavidMark
Guest
I also see a prejudice here, that is everything in the CC is OK, must be defended. Nothing bad ever happened. Isn’t that a myopic view? Baha’is try to recognize their short-comings.
You know how it is said several times in the Sermon on the Mount “You have heard it said” …”but I say unto you.” Did Jesus’ teachings go against what the Jews believed? Outwardly perhaps, but not in the spirit. In the same way, Bahá’u’lláh re-states teachings in a new way, and brings them closer to alignment with the divine purpose.
The passage you quoted from John about forgiveness of sins really doesn’t constitute a clear establishment of the practice of obligatory confession. Where does Christ say ‘The believers must come to confession.”?
As with many aspects of His ministry, these words of the Báb reflect those of Jesus. Here He is sending His first disciple out on a mission:
**The essence of power is now dwelling in you, and the company of His chosen angels revolves around you. His almighty arms will surround you, and His unfailing Spirit will ever continue to guide your steps. He that loves you, loves God; and whoever opposes you, has opposed God. Whoso befriends you, him will God befriend; and whoso rejects you, him will God reject. **(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 96)
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
It is more accurate to say Jesus is ‘the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…’ (Colossians 1:15) This means that Christ is created, even tho outside time.
Like Jesus, but not as perfectly, and after Jesus, we are all created in the image of God; when the mirrors of our hearts are turned to Him, His image will instantly be reflected.
Then we are ‘gods…children of the most High’ (Psalms 82:6)
He was the Word, and the Word is not the same as the Speaker, even though it is the most authoritative. And proper sheep will recognize the Shepherd’s Voice.
Remember, Christ is God. Baha’is don’t try to cdeny it. His Word, His Spirit and His life were the Word and Spirit and life of God. So, please quit saying I don’t believe He is God.
It seems like we contend and then wish each other peace! My true peace is drawing ever closer to the new divine Physician.
The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 212)
Peace
You know how it is said several times in the Sermon on the Mount “You have heard it said” …”but I say unto you.” Did Jesus’ teachings go against what the Jews believed? Outwardly perhaps, but not in the spirit. In the same way, Bahá’u’lláh re-states teachings in a new way, and brings them closer to alignment with the divine purpose.
The passage you quoted from John about forgiveness of sins really doesn’t constitute a clear establishment of the practice of obligatory confession. Where does Christ say ‘The believers must come to confession.”?
As with many aspects of His ministry, these words of the Báb reflect those of Jesus. Here He is sending His first disciple out on a mission:
**The essence of power is now dwelling in you, and the company of His chosen angels revolves around you. His almighty arms will surround you, and His unfailing Spirit will ever continue to guide your steps. He that loves you, loves God; and whoever opposes you, has opposed God. Whoso befriends you, him will God befriend; and whoso rejects you, him will God reject. **(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 96)
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
It is more accurate to say Jesus is ‘the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…’ (Colossians 1:15) This means that Christ is created, even tho outside time.
Like Jesus, but not as perfectly, and after Jesus, we are all created in the image of God; when the mirrors of our hearts are turned to Him, His image will instantly be reflected.
Then we are ‘gods…children of the most High’ (Psalms 82:6)
He was the Word, and the Word is not the same as the Speaker, even though it is the most authoritative. And proper sheep will recognize the Shepherd’s Voice.
Remember, Christ is God. Baha’is don’t try to cdeny it. His Word, His Spirit and His life were the Word and Spirit and life of God. So, please quit saying I don’t believe He is God.
It seems like we contend and then wish each other peace! My true peace is drawing ever closer to the new divine Physician.
The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 212)
Peace
P
planten
Guest
So we should read that passage as "In the name of Bahaullah that stands supreme over all other names…"
It should have been written like that. Now that DM has clarified that “In my name…” Means “in the name of Bahaullah…”, it was a secret before.
So we shall be careful in future and we shall always read the works in the name of Bahaullah and not in the name of God…
I was complaining about the use of too many pronouns here and there. It was a riddle. But I thank God that it has been cleared by DavidMark that it is all in praise of Bahaullah… Thanks DM.
I am looking for the word Baha in some dictionaries. It is not a common word used generally. If DM could guide me to some dictionary where I could easily find this word Baha and let me know which language it is. Thanks again.
D
DavidMark
Guest
As I said, the word ‘bahá’ was used in Arabic Bibles but then replaced with majid or jalal or another synonym. I do not have dictionaries like that handy, but it is a very good project. In Farsi, the word also means ‘value’ and can be seen on products, meaning the ‘price’ is such-n-such.
I will continue to re-interpret the reason Catholics do things, just as the Christians re-interpreted familiar passages to the Jews, as when the Ethiopian asked for help in understanding. (Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.) The key word here ‘asked’. Any questions?
A small example:
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city…
This passage not only relates how previous prophets were opposed, and hints at how Jesus Himself would die, but it foretells the exiles and martyrdom of the Báb, and the sufferings of Bahá’u’lláh, who was administered the bastinado in the mosque at Amul (where His feet were constrained with a twisted cord, attached to a rod, by which they are raised up, and the soles whipped with another rod). He undertook this punishment in order to save others from suffering it.
Later, Bahá’u’lláh was exiled to Baghdad, Constantinople, Adrianople, and finally Akka fortress in Palestine, fulfilling an amazingly similar prophecy from Micah:
7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
7:13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. (40 years)
7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
(Like the monkeys ‘Speak no evil’ & ‘Hear no evil’ etc. they ignore their folly and their enormities)
Like Abraham, who came from Mesopotamia, Bahá’u’lláh’s exile passed through what had been Assyria, from Constant(name removed by moderator)e to Akka, both heavily fortified cities. He traveled by ship on the Black Sea to the Ottoman capitol, and again on the Meditaerranean from Gallipoli to Egypt to Akka. During the course of His 40 year ministry (1852-1892), He eventually came out of the prison-fortress to enjoy the verdure along a small stream outside Akka. He had also traveled from Sar-Gulu, His retreat in the Kurdistan wilderness to Mount Carmel, on the coast of the Holy Land, where the Tablet of Carmel mystically established the nascent institutions of the World Centre of His Faith, the New Jerusalem. A small cluster of Cyprus trees gave shade on the day He pointed out the spot to His Son where the body of the Báb should be entombed. These stand immediately behind the Shrine.
The Carmel range is ‘Har-Meggido’ (Mountain of Megiddo). Nearby a few members of His family kept faith in His Covenant , while many others violated it, precipitating the ‘great hail’ (Rev. 11:19) that accompanied the military invasion that General Allenby brought with his multi-national forces, eventually assuring the safety of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in 1918. The many Israeli wars since have been in response to jihad proclaimed by the Arab nations, such as the one in 1967, which planned for the armies to meet on Mt. Carmel. Now it is a real concern that if Iran’s leaders had even one atomic bomb, they would use it to attack the Baha’i World Centre that they hate so fiendishly. May God protect the Baha’is of Iran, Iraq and Israel…(the third eye?)
And oft as Our verses are rehearsed unto them, they persist in proud disdain, and in their gross violation of His law, and know it not. (Bahá’u’lláh, GWB, p. 43)
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
During Bahá’u’lláh’s time, Palestine was stripped of its forests and festering with disease. He advised that the local aqueduct be repaired; and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was knighted by the British for raising and storing wheat to prevent famine. Even though these events are known to the religious and political leaders in the Middle East, they prevent most of their followers from listening to the Good News. Nevertheless, since that time, The Bahá’í faith has been established in every country and hosted the most diverse gathering of tribes and races the world has ever seen. The Jews have returned, the land has been beautified and protected, as it was also prophesied at the end of the ‘Time of the Gentiles’. (Luke 21:7 & 24)
His followers asked Him when these things shall be, and He tells them when the time of the Gentiles is over. Now that it has happened, pray tell how it can be interpreted otherwise?
I will continue to re-interpret the reason Catholics do things, just as the Christians re-interpreted familiar passages to the Jews, as when the Ethiopian asked for help in understanding. (Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.) The key word here ‘asked’. Any questions?
A small example:
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city…
This passage not only relates how previous prophets were opposed, and hints at how Jesus Himself would die, but it foretells the exiles and martyrdom of the Báb, and the sufferings of Bahá’u’lláh, who was administered the bastinado in the mosque at Amul (where His feet were constrained with a twisted cord, attached to a rod, by which they are raised up, and the soles whipped with another rod). He undertook this punishment in order to save others from suffering it.
Later, Bahá’u’lláh was exiled to Baghdad, Constantinople, Adrianople, and finally Akka fortress in Palestine, fulfilling an amazingly similar prophecy from Micah:
7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
7:13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. (40 years)
7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
(Like the monkeys ‘Speak no evil’ & ‘Hear no evil’ etc. they ignore their folly and their enormities)
Like Abraham, who came from Mesopotamia, Bahá’u’lláh’s exile passed through what had been Assyria, from Constant(name removed by moderator)e to Akka, both heavily fortified cities. He traveled by ship on the Black Sea to the Ottoman capitol, and again on the Meditaerranean from Gallipoli to Egypt to Akka. During the course of His 40 year ministry (1852-1892), He eventually came out of the prison-fortress to enjoy the verdure along a small stream outside Akka. He had also traveled from Sar-Gulu, His retreat in the Kurdistan wilderness to Mount Carmel, on the coast of the Holy Land, where the Tablet of Carmel mystically established the nascent institutions of the World Centre of His Faith, the New Jerusalem. A small cluster of Cyprus trees gave shade on the day He pointed out the spot to His Son where the body of the Báb should be entombed. These stand immediately behind the Shrine.
The Carmel range is ‘Har-Meggido’ (Mountain of Megiddo). Nearby a few members of His family kept faith in His Covenant , while many others violated it, precipitating the ‘great hail’ (Rev. 11:19) that accompanied the military invasion that General Allenby brought with his multi-national forces, eventually assuring the safety of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in 1918. The many Israeli wars since have been in response to jihad proclaimed by the Arab nations, such as the one in 1967, which planned for the armies to meet on Mt. Carmel. Now it is a real concern that if Iran’s leaders had even one atomic bomb, they would use it to attack the Baha’i World Centre that they hate so fiendishly. May God protect the Baha’is of Iran, Iraq and Israel…(the third eye?)
And oft as Our verses are rehearsed unto them, they persist in proud disdain, and in their gross violation of His law, and know it not. (Bahá’u’lláh, GWB, p. 43)
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
During Bahá’u’lláh’s time, Palestine was stripped of its forests and festering with disease. He advised that the local aqueduct be repaired; and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was knighted by the British for raising and storing wheat to prevent famine. Even though these events are known to the religious and political leaders in the Middle East, they prevent most of their followers from listening to the Good News. Nevertheless, since that time, The Bahá’í faith has been established in every country and hosted the most diverse gathering of tribes and races the world has ever seen. The Jews have returned, the land has been beautified and protected, as it was also prophesied at the end of the ‘Time of the Gentiles’. (Luke 21:7 & 24)
His followers asked Him when these things shall be, and He tells them when the time of the Gentiles is over. Now that it has happened, pray tell how it can be interpreted otherwise?
J
jen_fla
Guest
many people in the Catholic Church have done bad things. no argument from me there. i’ve yet to see a dogmatic teaching that hasn’t elevated man.
and if you want to debate the validity of confession, the Divine presence in the Eucharist, the crusades, the inquisition, start a new thread or do a search as there are numerous ones covering all these.
this thread isn’t about that. it’s about how your faith teaches that baha’u’llah is teaching the same message as Christ, mohammed, zoraster, moses etc…
even forgetting all your reinterpretations of scripture, you have not given me or anyone else a good answer as to how it is that we as Christians believe Jesus IS God and you only see Him as a messenger of God.
how can you explain away and say that the baha’i faith is teaching the same message as Christianity?
the only tap dance you can give is that baha’u’llah said it so it must be true. is it that Christians that believe Jesus IS God are wrong or don’t really know what they believe in? they are confused?
nonsense.
peace. (and yes i wish you peace. we can disagree for another 10 years and i will still wish peace on you, your family and friends. same goes for planten. we disagree all the time, but i still wish peace on him and everyone else on caf) :grouphug:
J
jen_fla
Guest
nope. big red says it all!
D
DavidMark
Guest
I doesn’t seem to matter what we say to each other. The practice is good for each of us.
I say the progressive revelations from God have the same spirit, although outward social teachings may change.
If you have a seed, it isn’t anything like a complete tree. If you cut it up you won’t find anything tree-like in it. But the seed sacrifices itself and the tree begins to appear.
At different stages of its growth it has different characteristics, and appearances.
It is at first a green and tender sapling, without any bud. Later on it gains more turgor, and develops bark. It may have only two branches, but it gains more and more. And when the season is right, buds appear, then blossoms, then fruit, --and in the case of the olive, oil from the fruit. Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, for us, has been compared to the light from the ignited oil.
This is how the Scriptures have been given: first through oral tradition, hand written visions then redacted, than direct dictation and memorization over time as with the Qur’an (6,000+ verses in 23 years) and now the equivalent of that in 2 days, written in the hand of the divine Manifestation Himself and preserved in the Archives, and on a worldwide web!
It is a beautiful display of the methods the Word has used.
I want all of human history to be seen as fitting into God’s plan for the maturation of humanity, for the eventual appearance of a global consciousness guided by God. We can’t do this; God draws it out of what He has through His own will. When I look at the unfolding of the missions of the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh, all I see is portentious signs in the Their lives, the manner of their revelation of the Word in the midst of tests and sufferings.
God is the light of the heavens and the earth; His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, and the lamp is in a glass, the glass is as though it were a glittering star; it is lit from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the east nor of the west, the oil of which would well-nigh give light though no fire touched it,-light upon light!-God guides to His light whom He pleases; and God strikes out parables for men, and all things doth God know…
But those who misbelieve, their works are like the mirage in a plain, the thirsty counts it water till when he comes to it he finds nothing, but he finds that God is with him; and He will pay him his account, for God is quick to take account. Or like darkness on a deep sea, there covers it a wave above which is a wave, above which is a cloud,-darknesses one above the other,-when one puts out his hand he can scarcely see it; for he to whom God has given no light, he has no light.(The Qur’an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 24 - Light)
I see the people wandering distraught and unconscious in their drunken stupor. They have raised on high their passions and set down their God. Methinks they have taken His Cause for a mockery and regard it as a play and pastime, believing all the while that they do well, and that they dwell securely in the citadel of safety. Howbeit the matter is not as they fondly imagine: tomorrow shall they behold that which today they are wont to deny!(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 133)
All of will be tested to see if our water was genuine or a mirage, if our light guided or misguided us. In the Hereafter, Jen, we’ll resume this discussion in the presence of the Teachers we quoted so zealously here.
Filial love, Marko
I say the progressive revelations from God have the same spirit, although outward social teachings may change.
If you have a seed, it isn’t anything like a complete tree. If you cut it up you won’t find anything tree-like in it. But the seed sacrifices itself and the tree begins to appear.
At different stages of its growth it has different characteristics, and appearances.
It is at first a green and tender sapling, without any bud. Later on it gains more turgor, and develops bark. It may have only two branches, but it gains more and more. And when the season is right, buds appear, then blossoms, then fruit, --and in the case of the olive, oil from the fruit. Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, for us, has been compared to the light from the ignited oil.
This is how the Scriptures have been given: first through oral tradition, hand written visions then redacted, than direct dictation and memorization over time as with the Qur’an (6,000+ verses in 23 years) and now the equivalent of that in 2 days, written in the hand of the divine Manifestation Himself and preserved in the Archives, and on a worldwide web!
It is a beautiful display of the methods the Word has used.
I want all of human history to be seen as fitting into God’s plan for the maturation of humanity, for the eventual appearance of a global consciousness guided by God. We can’t do this; God draws it out of what He has through His own will. When I look at the unfolding of the missions of the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh, all I see is portentious signs in the Their lives, the manner of their revelation of the Word in the midst of tests and sufferings.
God is the light of the heavens and the earth; His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, and the lamp is in a glass, the glass is as though it were a glittering star; it is lit from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the east nor of the west, the oil of which would well-nigh give light though no fire touched it,-light upon light!-God guides to His light whom He pleases; and God strikes out parables for men, and all things doth God know…
But those who misbelieve, their works are like the mirage in a plain, the thirsty counts it water till when he comes to it he finds nothing, but he finds that God is with him; and He will pay him his account, for God is quick to take account. Or like darkness on a deep sea, there covers it a wave above which is a wave, above which is a cloud,-darknesses one above the other,-when one puts out his hand he can scarcely see it; for he to whom God has given no light, he has no light.(The Qur’an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 24 - Light)
I see the people wandering distraught and unconscious in their drunken stupor. They have raised on high their passions and set down their God. Methinks they have taken His Cause for a mockery and regard it as a play and pastime, believing all the while that they do well, and that they dwell securely in the citadel of safety. Howbeit the matter is not as they fondly imagine: tomorrow shall they behold that which today they are wont to deny!(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 133)
All of will be tested to see if our water was genuine or a mirage, if our light guided or misguided us. In the Hereafter, Jen, we’ll resume this discussion in the presence of the Teachers we quoted so zealously here.
Filial love, Marko
B
Badi1919
Guest
Hello friends.
This is my first post in this discussion forum.
This discussion is very interesting. I will be here sometimes and post some interesting Baha’i Links. These links are definitely not related to the discussion here but it will provide the readers another dimension of the baha’i faith. So kindly ignore me / my posts if you find them useless.
Today’s link :
Sects of the Baha’i faith
sectsofbahais.com
This is my first post in this discussion forum.
This discussion is very interesting. I will be here sometimes and post some interesting Baha’i Links. These links are definitely not related to the discussion here but it will provide the readers another dimension of the baha’i faith. So kindly ignore me / my posts if you find them useless.
Today’s link :
Sects of the Baha’i faith
sectsofbahais.com
D
DavidMark
Guest
Would a prophet of God override papal authority? Too bad I can’t reply to that thread.
D
DavidMark
Guest
OK Badi, I will ignore your useless posts, because the love I see you avid about is the love of division, not unity. These are not Baha’i anyway: Azal certainly never called himself a Baha’i, and tried to have Baha’u’llah killed several times. These have for the most part shriveled up in history, like a disconnected branch, or a dead body thrown back up on the beach, unable to dive with leviathan. When the disaffected one dies, the idea dies.
There is a beautiful Book called The Hidden Words, which is The Word of God if ever there was any. I spoke about it on radio as Mark Townsend at bsu.edu/web/ipr/OUTREACH/outreachpage.html
In the Hidden Words #30, Bahá’u’lláh says:
O SON OF MAN! Deny not My servant should he ask anything from thee,
for his face is My face; be then abashed before Me.
Although this passage is not usually quoted in regard to the succession; it was clear to me that no one served Bahá’u’lláh like 'Abdu’l-Bahá. That should be simple enough.
The very first Servant a Baha’i thinks of is 'Abdu’l-Baha, the eldest son. There was no comparison between the way He lived, and His younger brother Muhammad Ali, who would have succeeded Him if he had accepted Him during His life; but Muhammad Ali didn’t do that, and the trouble he caused was unimaginable. Still, he hoped to be accepted by the believers after the death of 'Abdu’l-Baha, which didn’t happen.
'Abdu’l-Baha appointed His grandson Shoghi Effendi as Guardian after Him. Whoever served Him served Baha’u’llah. There was no Universal House of Justice in those days; and after he died, the Hands of the Cause (an institution created by Baha’u’llah) worked to complete the ten year global plan (1953-1963) that Shoghi Effendi had begun.
But even among the Hands there transpired an abject example of what to watch out for in the future: Mason Remey had been a highly accomplished Baha’i for 40 or 50 years, but when the Guardian died, he ignored that any new Guardian had to be appointed by Shoghi Effendi, and that did not happen because the rest of the available family members were infected with the spirit of covenant breaking.
After that the other Hands arranged for the Universal House of Justice to be elected and it has been elected every five years since. There’s no denying that there have been some attempts, schismatic thinkers, but no real schisms. None of them accomplished what the described succession has accomplished.
**All that I beg of Thee, O my God, is to enable me, ere my soul departeth from my body, to attain Thy good-pleasure, even were it granted to me for a moment tinier than the infinitesimal fraction of a mustard seed. For if it departeth while Thou art pleased with me, then I shall be free from every concern or anxiety; but if it abandoneth me while Thou art displeased with me, then, even had I wrought every good deed, none would be of any avail, and had I earned every honour and glory, none would serve to exalt me. **(The Báb, SWB, p. 187)
**Walk, therefore, with a sure step and engage with the utmost assurance and confidence in the promulgation of the divine fragrances, the glorification of the Word of God and firmness in the Covenant. Rest ye assured that if a soul ariseth in the utmost perseverance and raiseth the Call of the Kingdom and resolutely promulgateth the Covenant, be he an insignificant ant he shall be enabled to drive away the formidable elephant from the arena, and if he be a feeble moth he shall cut to pieces the plumage of the rapacious vulture.(**Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 209)
V
vivs3
Guest
hey Bahai’s…
you say that all messengers that have come from God, is all from the same God. Ok I get that, but then you say Jesus is not God, and that he is just a messenger, but how can you say that when you Bahai’s are trying to get pretty much the same message across as the Christians, why do you say Jesus is not God, when he is?! Are you saying the Catholic teachings are wrong?
you say that all messengers that have come from God, is all from the same God. Ok I get that, but then you say Jesus is not God, and that he is just a messenger, but how can you say that when you Bahai’s are trying to get pretty much the same message across as the Christians, why do you say Jesus is not God, when he is?! Are you saying the Catholic teachings are wrong?
S
Sen_McGlinn
Guest
The site is an anti-bahai polemic, apparently Iranian in origin. The Iranian government runs courses in anti-bahai argument, and has a university-level training college for anti-bahai propaganda. So there’s a lot of it around. You can see answers to a small sample of this state-sponsored hate speech here:
bahai.org/persecution/iran/mediaattacks
Anyone can set himself up as a Bahai sect, and some do. It doesn’t last: either they get no followers, or they do, and the followers then squabble among themselves, so the trend is for each sect to consist of one person, and eventually die. Something above 99% of all Bahais are loyal to one community, the Bahai Faith with its headquarters and holy places in Israel. That means that the Bahai religion has achieved a broader “catholicity” (communion of all the faithful) than any other religion of its size, or larger.
The reason for this is that the specifications for the authentic Bahai institutions are given explicitly in the scriptures, and Baha’u’llah’s son Abdu’l-Baha was explicitly appointed by him as leader of the community, and he in turn appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to that position, in writing. So first of all you have to be pretty wacky to think of setting up a separate body, and wacky people are not good organisers, and to do it you have to treat the Bahai scriptures in a high-handed way, and once the leader does that the followers follow - and each becomes a leader of himself alone.
It’s a dynamic situation: in each generation there are one or two people who try to set up their own “Bahai” insitutions outside the scripturally-based ones, and in each generation some such groups die out or split. Having explicit written scriptural charters for the genuine bahai institutions ensures that, for all the ‘buzz’ on the fringes, the Bahai community itself does not split over any dispute.
D
DavidMark
Guest
I never said Jesus was just a Messenger. So let’s be straight about Jesus; I keep saying He is God! So is His return in the Most Great Name. It is His right to arraign the Church that grew up in His absence.
As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 109)
O Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of mouldering bones counselleth thee, as voiced by Him Who is His Most Great Name. Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven. (When Pope Pius IX did not do this, Victor Immanuel took them from him.)
O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away.
Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation.
**
O concourse of archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared. In the plain of guidance He calleth mankind, whilst ye are numbered with the dead! Great is the blessedness of him who is stirred by the Breeze of God, and hath arisen from amongst the dead in this perspicuous Name.
O concourse of bishops! Trembling hath seized all the kindreds of the earth, and He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven. Blessed the ear that hath heard, and the eye that hath seen, and the heart that hath turned unto Him Who is the Point of Adoration of all who are in the heavens and all who are on earth…
O concourse of bishops! Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth. My justice, however, declareth: ‘This is that which the Son (Jesus) hath decreed.’ And whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered.**
**O concourse of Christians! We have, on a previous occasion, revealed Ourself unto you, and ye recognized Me not. This is yet another occasion vouchsafed unto you. This is the Day of God; turn ye unto Him… The Beloved One loveth not that ye be consumed with the fire of your desires. Were ye to be shut out as by a veil from Him, this would be for no other reason than your own waywardness and ignorance. Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…
O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…**
I am lost, O Love, possessed and dazed,
Love’s fool am I, in all the earth.
They call me first among the crazed,
Though I once came first for wit and worth.
O Love, who sellest me this wine,
O Love, for whom I burn and bleed,
Love, for whom I cry and pine –
Thou the Piper, I the reed.
If Thou wishest me to live,
Through me blow Thy holy breath.
The touch of Jesus Thou wilt give
To me, who’ve lain an age in death.
Thou, both End and Origin,
Thou without and Thou within –
From every eye Thou hidest well,
And yet in every eye dost dwell.
J
jen_fla
Guest
dear vivs3 welcome to mr toad’s wild ride.
reread through this whole thread and you will see that the bahai’ believe Jesus is a messenger aka a “manifestation” of God, but not God.
in order for this faith to make any sense they have to ignore contradictions or play around with definitions.
from their organizations page:
The Bahá’í Faith is the youngest of the world’s independent religions. Its founder, Bahá’u’lláh (1817-1892), is regarded by Bahá’ís as the most recent in the line of **Messengers of God **that stretches back beyond recorded time and that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad.
or better yet ask them simple yes and no questions like planten tried to.
is moses God?
was moses a messenger of God?
is buddha God?
was buddha a messenger of God?
is Jesus God?
is Jesus a messenger of God?
so davidmark says he believes Jesus is God, but now ask him if he believes buddha is God.
A
arthra
Guest
The distinction for Baha’is is that God does not incarnate Himself physically… this is a church doctrine that developed over time in my opinion… (probably to accomodate the understanding of Hellenized pagans who believed the god’s had sons and daughters and were divinely or miraculously born)…but the attributes of God are reflected in Jesus, Moses, Muhammad perfectly. The only way for us to come to some understanding of God for the time in which we live is through the Manifestation of God for this day. Had we lived in the time of Christ it would be in His day and we could only approach the Divine threshold through Him…
J
jen_fla
Guest
er that is not quite what you have been saying, but i understand how you want to bend this so we all can just get along.
if they are humans “in that they speak for God” does that not make them just messengers and NOT God?
J
jen_fla
Guest
ah i see. well at least you admit that your faith does not teach what Catholics/Orthodox/and 98% of all other Christian denominations teaches and that is a start. not to derail this thread, but perhaps we can start a thread about your opinion that the Church developed this doctrine over time to accommodate the pagans. there are many people on this forum that have studied the writings of the early church fathers and are quite aware of what heresies they fought early on.
so do the baha’i believe these prophets have ALL of the attributes of God or just some?
V
vivs3
Guest
yet again, I have spoken to my Bahai friend.
yesterday I talked to him and we spent around about two hours on the topic of his faith, and mine, but mostly his.
This time, I asked him, if Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus, why is it that the Christians did not follow what Bahaullah had to say?
He did not answer my question precisely. So I reinforced my question by saying, if Jesus did suposedly come, then the Christians would have followed, because Christians followed Jesus Christ, however this did not happen, and a new religion began. Why so?
Why didn’t the christians follow the second coming of Jesus? If they did, a new religion would have never been brought up, as a result there would never have been a Bahai faith.
He said, because Bahaullah brought new info. So I said, new info = new faith?
He said yes. But it’s not new, because you Bahai’s are actually trying to get the same message across as the christians, if you are not, then you bahais are just contradicting yourselves.
yesterday I talked to him and we spent around about two hours on the topic of his faith, and mine, but mostly his.
This time, I asked him, if Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus, why is it that the Christians did not follow what Bahaullah had to say?
He did not answer my question precisely. So I reinforced my question by saying, if Jesus did suposedly come, then the Christians would have followed, because Christians followed Jesus Christ, however this did not happen, and a new religion began. Why so?
Why didn’t the christians follow the second coming of Jesus? If they did, a new religion would have never been brought up, as a result there would never have been a Bahai faith.
He said, because Bahaullah brought new info. So I said, new info = new faith?
He said yes. But it’s not new, because you Bahai’s are actually trying to get the same message across as the christians, if you are not, then you bahais are just contradicting yourselves.
V
vivs3
Guest
yet again, I have spoken to my Bahai friend.
yesterday I talked to him and we spent around about two hours on the topic of his faith, and mine, but mostly his.
This time, I asked him, if Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus, why is it that the Christians did not follow what Bahaullah had to say?
He did not answer my question precisely. So I reinforced my question by saying, if Jesus did suposedly come, then the Christians would have followed, because Christians followed Jesus Christ, however this did not happen, and a new religion began. Why so?
Why didn’t the christians follow the second coming of Jesus? If they did, a new religion would have never been brought up, as a result there would never have been a Bahai faith.
He said, because Bahaullah brought new info. So I said, new info = new faith?
He said yes. But it’s not new, because you Bahai’s are actually trying to get the same message across as the christians, if you are not, then you bahais are just contradicting yourselves.
Please also tell me, why is it that the Christians also don’t know about the second coming of Jesus? I know cos my friend told me about it, otherwise I would have never known. I’m seriously getting suspicious, whether if Bahaullah was really the second coming of Jesus, atm, I don’t reckon so.
yesterday I talked to him and we spent around about two hours on the topic of his faith, and mine, but mostly his.
This time, I asked him, if Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus, why is it that the Christians did not follow what Bahaullah had to say?
He did not answer my question precisely. So I reinforced my question by saying, if Jesus did suposedly come, then the Christians would have followed, because Christians followed Jesus Christ, however this did not happen, and a new religion began. Why so?
Why didn’t the christians follow the second coming of Jesus? If they did, a new religion would have never been brought up, as a result there would never have been a Bahai faith.
He said, because Bahaullah brought new info. So I said, new info = new faith?
He said yes. But it’s not new, because you Bahai’s are actually trying to get the same message across as the christians, if you are not, then you bahais are just contradicting yourselves.
Please also tell me, why is it that the Christians also don’t know about the second coming of Jesus? I know cos my friend told me about it, otherwise I would have never known. I’m seriously getting suspicious, whether if Bahaullah was really the second coming of Jesus, atm, I don’t reckon so.
P
planten
Guest
**I see that Bahaism is not christianity. I am also happy that it is not Islam. The Bahais are fair minded in that they do not call their religion “ISLAM”. It has nothing to do with Islam.
But I felt that the Bahais had more in common with church teachings. Bahaism could be called the extention or addendum of christianity. Let us see what they say.
The Catholics need not reply to my question please. I would like to know from Bahais (in simple short words) whether Bahaism is an aid to Catholicism or christianity in general?**
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