"The Baha'i Faith"

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Dear contender Jen (who likes to post a smiley that implies I’m wacked out):

These mysteries and stations we are talking about are greater than us, and the lesser cannot completely comprehend them. I never said Jesus was JUST a Messenger. All we will ever understand of God is what is taught and exemplified by the Divine Manifestations. Their light is the same, but the measure of it increases, like the moon in phase, until the entire disc is illuminated. We are living in that Days of Days.
If the Buddhists really know and love Buddha, they will come to Baha’u’llah, which many have done. It was Buddhist Baha’is of Rangoon who had the marble sarcophagus made for the buriel of the Báb’s body in 1909.
My unalterable position is the one stated by Baha’u’llah here:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. …
And were any of them to voice the utterance: **“I am the Messenger of God,” **He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.
And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden” – all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences.
And were they to say: **“We are the servants of God,” **this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)

VIV: He came like a “thief in the night” and the householders didn’t know He was in the house. “Every eye shall see Him” means recognizing the spiritual verities…which we will either do in this world or the next. Physical sight is unimportant, just as it was in the case of Jesus’ first coming. Why didn’t the Jews recognize Him? Isaiah said (and so did the Qur’an) “eyes have they with which they see not” etc. He was beclouded by the human station – the fact that He is in a human body subject to the same conditions as other people. It is the Word They speak, whether They are homeless, penniless, friendless. That inescapable Word will triumph.

Beseeching God’s favors for every seeker,
Mark
 
Brothers,
I know brother SenMcglinn. He is a very good person. But he is not a Baha’i with administrative rights. He is not an official member of the Baha’i Community. When a person is not a registered member of the baha’i community then he cannot call himself a baha’i. He cannot use the registered Baha’i religious symbols (trademarks). Any baha’i who uses it and misguides the people is brought to trial by the Baha’i NSAs. There is a court case going on amongst the Orthodox Bahais and Baha’is of Haifa. This was also reported in the Chicago Tribune recently, and yes, this was not published by the Islamic Regime of Iran.

archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/18/local/chi-bahai-18-may18

The purpose of writing this post is just to inform respected readers about what is going on in the baha’i religion.
 
All the attributes of God are perfectly reflected in Them…

By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes.

They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”

~ Baha’u’llah Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah
 
arthra said:
All the attributes of God are perfectly reflected in Them…

By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes.

They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”

~ Baha’u’llah Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah
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**arthra, the part shown in red above seems to be from the Quran. But there is no mention that it is from the Quran. Why Bahaullah tried to do that? I had noticed same thing before. Bahaullah sahib used clear verse of the Quran without mentioning that it was from the Quran.

Here in your post is another example of the same thing. Could you explain that??**
 
DavidMark said:
Dear contender Jen (who likes to post a smiley that implies I’m wacked out):

These mysteries and stations we are talking about are greater than us, …
My unalterable position is the one stated by Baha’u’llah here:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. …
And were any of them to voice the utterance: **“I am the Messenger of God,” **He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.
And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden” – all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences.
And were they to say: **“We are the servants of God,” **this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)
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**D M, It was alright for the messengers to say that they were the messengers of God, or servants of God. But it would not be right for any of them to say that they were God. Such a thing will never happen in any case of a true prophet any way. No prophet has said that he was God. So it is a wrong case built by Bahaullah sahib.

D M, you should try to remember why the Jews were angry at Jesus. Because they thought he said that he was God. They were ready to stone Jesus. Would you say that they were wrong.

Moreover, it appears that Bahaullah sahib was believing in Wahdat ul Wujood. There have been some bad sect amongst Muslims whose followers were called Wujoodis. They believed in Hamah oost. (Everything is God). Bahaullah is very near to that belief and that belief is wrong. Definitely wrong. It can be proved wrong very easily.

Now I understand that Bahaullah is a Wahdat ul Wujoodi.**

.
 
Dear Planten, Arthra, Jen, Sen, and all: This thread is important to me. I want to thank everyone for coming back and talking. We’re are doing pretty well with courtesy.

This English translation of Baha’u’llah’s Tablet indicates it is a quotation, if not always a direct attribution to the Holy Qur’án. His original Middle Eastern audience was well aware of the context of His reference, and I’m sure the translator was confident that sincere seekers would find out where the quotation is from. In this culture we can say a thing concisely, and allude to a scriptural passage, without quoting the whole thing, and the people get the point.
It is the job of Baha’is to explain the best they can, but to ask us why Baha’u’llah would do something is a little ironic. “He doeth whatsoever He willeth”.
We cannot interpret willy-nilly either. We tell ourselves, ‘That’s your opinion’ ‘Here’s my opinion’ with the understanding that none of us are authorized Interpreters like the Master & the Guardian.
There is precedent for this in older Scriptures. Even when Joseph, son of Jacob, was in Egypt, and was asked to interpret dreams, he said **Do not interpretations belong to God? **(Genesis 40:8)
By continuing with the interpretation, he is saying that he can do it by the grace of God.
Another important case is when Jesus gets up in the synagogue and reads from Isaiah.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
( Luke 4:21)
And how was He received?
4:28 **And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, **4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

If anyone understood the Torah and Prophets it was ‘rabbi’ Jesus. And Baha’is are now saying that Baha’u’llah’s interpretations are of the same nature, and got the same response. In the future, we should include a discussion of prophecies made by Baha’u’llah, as a proof of His Mission. There are many and they are dramatic…some have been fulfilled and others are on the tumultuous horizon.
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.(Deuteronomy 18:22)

Jen, Joseph Smith is not of the same class. His is a branch of Christianity… not a new Revelation. This will become more evident over time. He was a seer in some ways, but his books are a re-telling of the Bible, with his own theories, gotten out of his hat, and his claim of golden treasure unproved. He never claimed to be Christ returned, like the Twin Manifestations. He died a month after the Báb’s Mission began, having anticipated the coming of Christ again if he lived to a certain age, which, if he had, he may have lived to hear of the first mention of Baha’u’llah in America, at the Parliament of Religions in Chicago, in 1893.

in His service,
Marko
 
**Dear Marko, we have no objection to bahaullah using the verses of the Quran for his own benefit. But it would be necessary to give reference that he is presenting the Quran. Not every body in his time knew all about the Quran. Even now, not all the followers of Bahaullah know about the Quran. They have practically neglected the Quran and started a new relgion.

So it would be necessary for all Bahais not to use Quran at all without reference. Also, I would say that verses of Bible should also not be used without reference.

If anything was revealed to Bahaullah then that can be presented here as belonging to him. Shall we see something Bahaullah received from Allah in clear words (without much pronouns.) Please present that and leave the Quran. Let us see something that was for Bahaullah sahib.**
 
Planten: What is it you have against pronouns? In Baha’i belief, Baha’u’llah is the one Who gave the Bible, the Qur’an and other Scriptures; so He can quote from them however He pleases. In Muslim terms, He is the King of the Day of Reckoning (Malik-i-Yom-ud’Dín)

Naught can be seen in Me except God and His Cause, could ye but perceive it.
I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned. Thus hath it been decreed in the Scriptures of thy Lord, the Most Merciful. He, verily, hath borne witness unto Me, as I bear witness unto Him. And God testifieth to the truth of My words.(Bahá’u’lláh, Suriy-i-Haykal “Surih of the Temple” #1.164, SLH, p. 86)

At one time We address the people of the Torah and summon them unto Him Who is the Revealer of verses, Who hath come from Him Who layeth low the necks of men…
At another, We address the people of the Evangel and say: ‘The All-Glorious is come in this Name whereby the Breeze of God hath wafted over all regions.’…
At still another, We address the people of the Qur’án saying: ‘Fear the All-Merciful, and cavil not at Him through Whom all religions were founded.’… Know thou, moreover, that We have addressed to the Magians Our Tablets, and adorned them with Our Law… We have revealed in them the essence of all the hints and allusions contained in their Books. The Lord, verily, is the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (The Proclamation of Baha’u’llah, p. 87)

**Consider that which hath been sent down unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God. The measure of the Revelation of which He was the Bearer had been clearly foreordained by Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Powerful. They that heard Him, however, could apprehend His purpose only to the extent of their station and spiritual capacity. He, in like manner, uncovered the Face of Wisdom in proportion to their ability to sustain the burden of His Message. No sooner had mankind attained the stage of maturity, than the Word revealed to men’s eyes the latent energies with which it had been endowed – energies which manifested themselves in the plenitude of their glory when the Ancient Beauty appeared, in the year sixty, **(1260 AH/1844 CE) in the person of Ali-Muhammad, the Báb.(Baha’u’llah, quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 164)

**Consider these days in which the Ancient Beauty, He Who is the Most Great Name, hath been sent down to regenerate and unify mankind. Behold how with drawn swords they rose against Him, and committed that which caused the Faithful Spirit to tremble. And whenever We said unto them: ‘Lo, the World Reformer is come,’ they made reply: ‘He, in truth, is one of the stirrers of mischief.’" **
"It beseemeth all men in this Day," He, in another Tablet, asserts, "to take firm hold on the Most Great Name, and to establish the unity of all mankind. There is no place to flee to, no refuge that any one can seek, except Him.(Baha’u’llah, quoted inThe World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 163)

But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.(Baha’u’llah, referring to Himself in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 103)
 
Dear Planten my friend: You keep saying that no Prophet has ever said He was God before, and I have demonstrated from the Old Testament that Moses was called God to Pharaoh, and God spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush. Now, it is the faith of Baha’is that if God can speak from a bush, He can speak from a Man, which is what has happened. Whenever the Divine Manifestation appears, He can say “I am God” if He wants to. Most of them did not because mankind was not able to grasp the greatness of such a challenge.
But Baha’u’llah is saying it in this Day, the “Day of God” and still people are unable to accept it, because we are probably not worthy …just as the worshippers of the golden calf were not worthy to hear Moses, and unable to look at His Face!
For humans, the closest they will ever get to God on this plane is to stand in the presence of the Divine Manifestation and believe in His verses. This promise of the “Presence of God” was given over and over again in the Qur’án, and it refers to the Day of Reckoning, when mankind will again be blessed with the advent of another Revelation. You must admit that whoever obeyed Muhammad obeyed God; because there is no way the invisible Essence of God can be approached.
Still, Baha’u’llah is a man like any other; except that God chose Him to speak to mankind!
His is the determining word. Whatever is in harmony with it, will endure; whatever contravenes will fail. All governments, and nations, all natural systems and worlds submit. With our faces to the ground, we should be glad for the decree of God that caused us to appear in this wondrous Day!
 
Planten: What is it you have against pronouns? In Baha’i belief, Baha’u’llah is the one Who gave the Bible, the Qur’an and other Scriptures; so He can quote from them however He pleases. In Muslim terms, He is the King of the Day of Reckoning (Malik-i-Yom-ud’Dín)
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Davidmark, so it was Bahaullah, the Almighty God who gave the Torah to the Jews and bibleNT to the Christians and Quran to the Muslims.???

That is a great idea you have brought out now. We may not need any more. Let every one thinkover this (swallow this bitter oill). i.e. making Bahaullah into a God. You are doing that or Bahaullah did that himself.??

Thanks any way for telling us the inner truth about bahaism.
 
Once again… God is revealed through His Messengers…and that is Baha’i belief. The Messengers are not God anymore than a Mirror is what it relfects.
 
Dear Brothers
Please read this writing of Baha’u’llah. Many of this kind of writings of Baha’u’llah are not yet translater from persian into english. This one is translated by Doctor Wahid Azal who is an Azali (Babi) scholar.

In
Ma’idih-i-Asmani, vol. 4, page 355
reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MAS4/mas4-355.html

Translation by Wahid Azal (Jan. 7, 2009)

QUOTE

Chapter 11

The Critics of the Cause of God (munkirin-i-amru’llah)

The Ancient Beauty in the Tablet of Habib from Maragha, which begins with “H B hear the call of God from the direction of the throne by the protective signs/verses (bi-ayati muhayyimin)…etc.” they * enunciate the command (mi-farmayand) *,

By God, the Truth, whomsoever criticizes it *, [which
is] possessed of the manifest, the brilliant, the high and the perspicuous excellence, it behoveth him to ask his mother [yanbaghi
lahu bi-an yas’al min ummihi] about his origins [or ‘state’,
i.e.‘hal’, meaning he should inquire his mother about his legitimate
conception – trans.], for he shall return to the nethermost hell
[asfal al-jahim]"…

In Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 322 the following is quoted by
'Abbas Effendi from a prayer by his father, cf. THE BAHA’I FAITH AND ISLAM (ed.) Heshmat Moayyad (The Association for Baha’i Studies: Ottawa, 1990), p.23

Quote

O God! Whomsoever violates My Covenant, O God, humiliate him. Verily whosoever violates My Covenant, erase and efface him.

Thank you,***
 
When amongst his close followers, bahaola calls himself GOD and when he is among the moslems he said that he is a messanger and when the bahais are talking to Hindus in India they call him as Avtar of God Krishna. One man many faces. Amazing. Have you guys seen his photo. He is so horrible. I am sorry baha’is if this hurts you but anybody after looking at his photographs gets feared. Search for the term Baha’u’llah in Google Images and experience yourselves.
 
Were any man to ponder in his heart
that which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed
and to taste of its sweetness, he would, of a certainty,
find himself emptied and delivered from his own desires,
and utterly subservient to the Will of the Almighty.
Happy is the man that hath attained so high a station,
and hath not deprived himself of so bountiful a grace.

Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 343
 
Badi1919, I don’t read anything you say. It’s like Greek to me!

Planten said: The Bahais are fair minded in that they do not call their religion “ISLAM”.
It has nothing to do with Islam.

On the contrary, it is “islám” renewed, I testify before the one true God.

This Religion is indeed in the sight of God, the essence of the Faith of Muhammad…~The Báb, SWA p. 71
I swear by your Lord, this Book is verily the same Qur’án which was sent down in the past. ~SWB 67
**If ye are truly faithful to Muhammad, the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets, and if ye follow His Book, the Qur’án, which is free from error, then here is the like of it -this Book, which We have, in truth and by the leave of God, sent down unto Our Servant. If ye fail to believe in Him, then your faith in Muhammad and His Book which was revealed in the past will indeed be treated as false in the estimation of God. **~Qayyúm’ul-Asmá, IV, Selections from the Writings of the Báb p.46

**Such as are the true followers of islám would say: ‘O Lord our God! We have hearkened to the call of Thy Remembrance and obeyed Him. Forgive us our sins. Thou art, verily, the Eternal Truth, and unto Thee, our Infallible Retreat, must we all return.’ **~Selections from the Writings of the Báb p. 44

**Do men imagine that We are far distant from the people of the world?
Nay, the day We cause them to be assailed by the pangs of death they shall, upon the plain of Resurrection, behold how the Lord of Mercy and His Remembrance were near.

Thereupon they shall exclaim: ‘Would that we had followed the path of the Báb!
Would that we had sought refuge only with Him, and not with men of perversity and error! For verily the Remembrance of God appeared before us, behind us, and on all sides, yet we were, in very truth, shut out as by a veil from Him.’**(The Báb, SWB, p. 46)
 
Dear Brother David Mark

You will definitely not understand what I am saying. Because you have been trained to behave like this. Any ways, I am not posting here only for you. This is for the general people here. I hope they understand me.

Today I have to post this for the readers :

Baha’is claim that the Bible speaks of Baha’u’llah, however, the only
reference to Baha’u’llah in the Bible is an indirect one when Jesus and
the apostles warned of the coming of false prophets and false Christs
(Matt. 7:15-16; 2 Cor. 11:13-15). The messianic verses from the Bible
cited by Baha’is as referring to Baha’u’llah, can not truly support
their claim because, among other things, Baha’u’llah was of Iranian
descent, where the Messiah was to be Jewish (Matthew 1; Genesis 12:1-3;
II Samuel 7:12-13). Also, the New Testament repeatedly cites the
fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ
(Matthew 1:1; 3:14; 8:17; Luke 1:31; Revelation 5:5).

The second coming of Christ also can not refer to Baha’u’llah.
Scripture indicates that the very same Jesus who ascended into heaven
will one day personally return (Acts 1:9-11). The Bible also
prophesies several dramatic and highly visible signs that will
accompany the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29). None of these signs were
present when Baha’u’llah arrived on the scene. He also didn’t show up
in the right place. Scripture clearly indicates that at the Second
Coming the Messiah will come to Jerusalem and his feet will physically
touch the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). Baha’u’llah never did this.

The Spirit of truth in John 16:12-13 also can’t be referring to
Baha’u’llah. John 14-16 clearly identifies the Spirit of Truth as
being the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, 26). Jesus said that His promise
of the Holy Spirit would be fulfilled “in a few days” (Acts 1:5), not
in the 1800s when Baha’u’llah was born. That fulfillment came on the
Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. The function of the Holy Spirit is to make
known Jesus’ teachings, not to replace them with the interpretations of
another prophet. Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit would be with us
forever (John 14:16). Baha’u’llah died in 1892 at the age of 75, far
short of forever.

Ephesians 1:18-21 “I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be
enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called
you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his
incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the
working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he
raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the
heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion,
and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also
in the one to come.”

iranian.com/main/blog/covenant/bahaullah-biblical-prophecy
 
Dear Brother David

This is a Catholic forum and I think there are many forums for Baha’is and Muslims to debate. You are encouraged to please convince the Christians, and not by quoting from the Islamic texts.

I hope this is not Greek.

thank you, god bless you.
 
Originally, Mateo said: “…He went straight to Daniel Chapter 12 (again) and pulled out many of the numbers like in verse 7 " …that it should be for a year, two years, a half year;…” which he added to be 3.5 years. He then would take numbers like “3.5 years”, do simple conversions, compare the numbers to the Muslim calendar which starts at Mohammad’s birth, and then gets specific dates that are, what he claims to be, dates of prophecy of his Baha’i religion. For example this process of calculation would produce the date 1863 which he claims was when Bahá’u’lláh declared his ministry. I know it sounds really far fetched from my explanation, but the calculations he showed me seemed to make logical sense at the time, but there was no holiness in them, no portion of faith. It just seemed like he was trying to show me a mathematical proof for his religion which I think denounces God’s plan for us to be people of faith, not just merely scholars of information."

That was from Mateo’s original post. It needs some clarification. The Muslim calendar does not start with the Prophet’s birth, but with His migration to Medina.
The 3.5 times mentioned in Daniel occurs again in Revelation 12 and elsewhere. (3.5 “times” or biblical years of 360 “days” = 42 “months” or 1260 “days” or actual years) This is the Bible’s comprimise between lunar and solar calendars. 1260 AH in the Muslim calendar was 1844 CE, the beginning of the Báb’s mission and the Bahá’i calendar.
7x360 = 2520 years. So, that period of 1260 years is the second half of the Seven Times
(2520 years), during which gentile nations controlled Palestine. But now the Jews have returned and we see an egregious transgression in Christians and Muslims refusing to recognize the fulfilment of this prophecy.
This is where the traditions come together!
Jesus’ followers asked Him in Luke 21 what the sign of His coming would be, and He said when the time of the gentiles was over, that is, when the Jews returned, and they had not been dispersed yet, when He said it! Elsewhere (Matt 24:15) , He referred them to Daniels prophecy of 2300 years (Dan. 18:13) which began in 456-7 BC, when the 2nd Temple was rebuilt.
That date is also the beginning of the 70 weeks prophecy in Dan. 9:24 (7x70 =490) about His own crucifixion. So, I wonder why Mateo didn’t think these prophecies of Christ had “no holiness”.
And the Muslims. 1000 lunar years from the disappearance of the 12th Imam comes to 1260 AH/1844. This was followed by the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate and the rise of Israel, the worst wars in history, the United Nations and the Universal House of Justice… But they can deny it until hell freezes over.
 
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