"The Baha'i Faith"

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Jen said: “all you get from this thread is quotes from bahaullah. i’m done with this thread too.”

But I’m glad she’s still around anyway, and we’ll keep sharing divine verses anyway, like:
**
“Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand.” **(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 24)
**In this period of its evolution the world of humanity is in danger. Every war is against the good pleasure of the Lord of mankind, for man is the edifice of God and war destroys the divine edifice. If an active, actual peace is brought about, the human world will attain to the utmost serenity and composure; wolves will be transformed into lambs, devils into angels, and terrors into divine splendors in less than the twinkling of an eye. **(Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 85)
 
DavidMark said:
jen fla: “…the Catholic/Orthodox position on Christ’s return is that it’s going to be a pretty spectacular event that no one will miss.”

Luke12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” -st augustine

It is not for us to go to the doctor and then disagree with his prescription. The conditions of the Arabs necessitated a limit on wives; but they were not ready for the monogamy some practiced, and there is little Biblical evidence that I can find that polygamy was disliked by God.

Behold, how lofty is the station, and how consummate the virtue, of these verses which He hath declared to be His surest testimony, His infallible proof, the evidence of His all-subduing power, and a revelation of the potency of His will. He, the divine King, hath proclaimed the undisputed supremacy of the verses of His Book over all things that testify to His truth…Through them floweth the river of divine knowledge, and gloweth the fire of His ancient and consummate wisdom. This is the fire which, in one and the same moment, kindleth the flame of love in the breasts of the faithful, and induceth the chill of heedlessness in the heart of the enemy. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 205)
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look, that verse only says no one will know the TIME, but how could you ignore this part?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty. 31 And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. matthew 24

pretty spectacular. no one reported the sign of Christ (cross) in the sky when bahá’u’lláh came nor did he descend from the clouds.

and as for not advocating polygamy, i am glad your faith practices that, but you can not say the arabs weren’t ready to only have one wife. makes no sense. how would you explain the Christian arabs that had accepted it for almost 600 years?
 
arthra said:
Jen,

Consider the claimants to be Messiah around the time of Jesus…

List of Jewish Messiah claimants around the time of Jesus…
During the time of Prophet Muhammad:

Musaylimah (Arabic: مسيلمة‎) or Maslamah ibn Ḥabīb (Arabic: مسلمة بن حبيب‎) was one of a series of men who claimed to be a prophet around the same time as Muhammad. He is often viewed as a false prophet by traditional accounts, and frequently referred to by the epithet “the Liar” (Arabic: الكذّاب‎ al-Kaḏḏāb).[1]

Source:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musaylimah

You may not know this Jen but there were those around the time of Baha’u’llah who claimed to be “Him Whom God would make manifest”… but they eventually gave up their claims or eventually were not believed anyway…

Regarding polygamy,

Baha’is are monagamous… What was sanctioned in the Bible or Qur’an no longer applies in our faith.
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yes, but they weren’t Christ. you make my point that many claim to be Christ, but there is only one. whether you believe or not He has changed history and mankind more than any other. i repeat, he SPLIT time as we know it.

the bottom line is you can not in all honesty say you truly believe Christ is a messenger of God, but they blindly ignore his teachings. what did Christ say about false prophets?
*
23 Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. 24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. 25 Behold I have told it to you, beforehand. Matthew 24*

peace
 
DavidMark said:
Very good Arthra. How would anyone have known between the variety to choose from back then? Just like now, --by their fruits. You SHALL known them by their fruits, --if you have discernment. Eyes are things that can see. The same with spiritual vision; if there is none, it is not an eye. Every eye that can see will see.

There is no comparing One Who is to us the Lord Bahá’u’lláh with Jim Jones, or David Koresh, who left nothing but contemptible legacies. They were wiped out. Bahá’u’lláh’s dominion is planetary already, and since planetary is the way God wants mankind to go, instead of prejudicial, tribal and fratricidal, and vituperatively partisan --I’d say Bahá’u’lláh is so far ahead of the pack of claimants, well, …keep watching.

The safe way to regard Him is at least to wait and see, like Gamaliel in the Book of Acts.
By opposing Him, one may be opposing God…
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again, although we have much in common yours is a new and separate religion that goes against some very important Christian teachings. this is in our Holy Scripture and like the Augustine quote said above, you can’t pick and choose which parts you’ll acknowledge.
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1*

and as for your part in red, could you name what religion(s) practice these things? and unless you are completely knowledgeable in all major religions, couldn’t one say you are showing prejudice?

bahá’u’lláh called my faith’s sacraments “foolish”… so how is that being inclusive and non-prejudiced?
 
From the Epistles you can read about the “false prophets”…

4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

(King James Bible, 1 John)

It says “try the spirits”… Investigate the claims.

and

2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(King James Bible, 2 Peter)

It’s referring to false prophets when it was written and already “among the people”…

They claimed Jesus was using Beelzebub to cast out demons:

11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

(King James Bible, Luke)

Apologies for my use of the King James Bible to you but the meanings and translations should be the same in other translations.

What did Jesus say happened to the Prophets?

23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(King James Bible, Matthew)

23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(King James Bible, Matthew)

So be sure you do not reject and persecute a Prophet without investigation and due and proper diligent searching…

"Ye oppress and persecute us, and yet, what else have we done except that we have believed in God and in the verses sent down unto us through the tongue of Muhammad, and in those which descended upon the Prophets of old?"

(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 217)

Consider how all the Prophets of God were persecuted and what hardships They experienced. Jesus Christ endured affliction and accepted martyrdom upon the cross in order to summon mankind to unity and love. What sacrifice could be greater? He brought the religion of love and fellowship into the world. Shall we make use of it to create discord, violence and hatred among mankind?

(Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 234)
 
Jen wrote:

*bahá’u’lláh called my faith’s sacraments “foolish”… so how is that being inclusive and non-prejudiced? *

What Baha’u’llah revealed was for us Baha’is and so we have no priests or “Fathers” to confess to and we do not have pulpits or kiss rings and there are no monastics among us either.
 
Us Catholics say Jesus is the greatest out of everyone else because he was God. Bahais do not think Jesus was God, and that he was just a messanger from God.
So do Bahais think that Bahaullah is not greater than any other, and that he is as equal as Jesus? and that there’s nothing really great about Jesus, even though he died for us?
 
The light of the moon is of the same nature each night it can reflect the sun’s light.
The succession of divine Messengers is the same.
Bahá’u’lláh quoted a Muslim tradition: What explanation can they give concerning that which the Seal of the Prophets (Muhammad) – may the souls of all else but Him be offered up for His sake – hath said?: "Ye, verily, shall behold your Lord as ye behold the full moon on its fourteenth night.
This indicates that although the light will be the same, its magnitude will be at its maximum. It does not belittle the previous appearances.
I have repeatedly said Moses and Jesus were God; whoever obeyed them obeyed God.
To say Jesus is the Son of God is to say that He was sent, just as the landowner sent the collectors of the revenue to the tenants, who were beaten, and then he sent his son who was killed; then he returned himself to establish justice. That indicates how great the manifstation of Bahá’u’lláh is. He establishes a ‘safe haven’ or an impeachable system of world order, ‘as it was in the days of Noah’. There is no place to flee to but oblivion, for the entire human race. Salvation is not just for the individual now.
How else can we know what God wants us to do unless He speaks to us in a human language? You don’t have to be born of a virgin to be a truth speaker authorized by God.

As for blood sacrifice, the Báb said:
** “I am come into this world to bear witness to the glory of sacrifice. You are aware of the intensity of My longing; you realise the degree of My renunciation. Nay, beseech the Lord your God to hasten the hour of My martyrdom and to accept My sacrifice. Rejoice, for both I and Quddus will be slain on the altar of our devotion to the King of Glory. The blood which we are destined to shed in His path will water and revive the garden of our immortal felicity. The drops of this consecrated blood will be the seed out of which will arise the mighty Tree of God, the Tree that will gather beneath its all-embracing shadow the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Grieve not, therefore, if I depart from this land, for I am hastening to fulfil My destiny.” **(The Báb, quoted in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 140)
 
vivs3 said:
Us Catholics say Jesus is the greatest out of everyone else because he was God. Bahais do not think Jesus was God, and that he was just a messanger from God.
So do Bahais think that Bahaullah is not greater than any other, and that he is as equal as Jesus? and that there’s nothing really great about Jesus, even though he died for us?
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If he didn’t believe that Jesus was God -before he founded the Baha’i Faith Baha’ullah was a Muslim- but a man and a prophet, then this can put a good number of prophets equal to him, once he is viewed this way, can’t it…
 
vivs3 said:
Us Catholics say Jesus is the greatest out of everyone else because he was God. Bahais do not think Jesus was God, and that he was just a messanger from God.
So do Bahais think that Bahaullah is not greater than any other, and that he is as equal as Jesus? and that there’s nothing really great about Jesus, even though he died for us?
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Thanks for the question Vivian…

When you wrote above:

“Bahais do not think Jesus was God, and that he was just a messenger from God.”

A couple of things come to mind…

One is it’s true we Baha’is don’t believe Jesus was God… Jesus says something like this if you’ll recall:

Maybe Jesus was quoting this verse:

The Lord only is righteous, and there is none other but he,…

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Sirach)

Also Paul the Apostle cites maybe the verse in Sirach?

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

(King James Bible, Romans)

Also consider:

O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

~, John 17:25

What do these words of Jesus tell us? Jesus is calling God His Father and that He was sent by God.

I’m sure you recall this verse:

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So can we say Jesus is God? Yes we can say it but does is that really in accord with the sayings of Jesus?

Do Baha’is really believe there is nothing great about Jesus?

Let’s find out…

**“Christ is ever in the world of existence. He has never disappeared out of it… Rest assured that Christ is present. The Spiritual beauty we see around us today is from the breathings of Christ.” **

(Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 41)

All the prophets have striven to make love manifest in the hearts of men. His Holiness Jesus Christ sought to create this love in the hearts. He suffered all difficulties and ordeals that perchance the human heart might become the fountain-source of love

(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 218)

His Holiness Christ-may my spirit be His sacrifice! – saith in the Gospel, “Many are called, but few chosen.” That is, many have been invited to faith, but few chosen for guidance. Praise be to God that thou wert of the chosen, realized the Day of the Lord, heard the divine Call and attained the Light of Reality! Endeavor and make an effort that certain souls may be trained, of whom His Holiness Christ said, “Ye shall know the tree by its fruits.” That is to say, every soul is known by (his) conduct, manners, words and deeds. Therefore, we must strive with life and heart that, day by day, our deeds may be better, our conduct more 307 beautiful and our forbearance greater. That is, to cultivate love for all the world; to attain beatific character.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 306)

What is the mission of Baha’u’llah?

Bahá’u’lláh then came and once more renewed the foundation of Faith. He brought back the teachings of God, and the humane practices of the time of Christ. He quenched the thirst of the thirsty, He awakened the careless and called the attention of the heedless to the Divine secrets. He declared the unity of humanity, and spread abroad the teaching of the equality of all men.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 45)

A friend asked how the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh contrasted with the teachings of Jesus Christ. “The teachings are the same.” declared 'Abdu’l-Bahá;

"It is the same foundation and the same temple. Truth is one, and without division. The teachings of Jesus are in a concentrated form. Men do not agree to this day as to the meaning of many of His sayings. His teachings are as a flower in the bud. Today, the bud is unfolding into a flower! Bahá’u’lláh has expanded and fulfilled the teachings, and has applied them in detail to the whole world.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 92)
 
Jen and all: We had a wonderful St. Francis Blessing of the Animals here; it was in the local paper yesterday.
I have three kitties that are very special to me. Two are fixed, declawed girls that stay inside (Slinky is the senier, an odd-eyed, white Persian or Angora, without the squashed face …and Zoey is a slippery, silly tuxedo short-hair that does very strange things),
and one is a golden-eyed darkie cat tom that hunts around outside.
They may not have abstract thought, but they communicate to me, and I imagine I will see them in heaven, and they won’t know any difference there either!
It’s a drippy, dreary, drizzly sort of day today …one that makes me feel like Eeyore.

Dear Arthra, don’t forget to delete the page numbers inside your quotations 🙂
 
Jen, I did go back to #416 and I do not see a problem, because you said:
‘Jesus is speaking to His disciples. are the disciples men? yes they are’

He is telling His immediate disciples something, not generations of priests unborn.

Even if Jesus had specifically set up the Confession as something all his followers had to do, which He did not, He also has the authority, when He returns as the Abhá Father, to abrogate, alter, or extend, whatever He wishes!
 
arthra said:
A friend asked how the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh contrasted with the teachings of Jesus Christ. “The teachings are the same.” declared 'Abdu’l-Bahá;

"It is the same foundation and the same temple. Truth is one, and without division. The teachings of Jesus are in a concentrated form. Men do not agree to this day as to the meaning of many of His sayings. His teachings are as a flower in the bud. Today, the bud is unfolding into a flower! Bahá’u’lláh has expanded and fulfilled the teachings, and has applied them in detail to the whole world.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 92)
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If the teachings are the same, why didn’t Bahaullah continue on with the Christians, and therefore not start a new faith??
 
vivs3 said:
If the teachings are the same, why didn’t Bahaullah continue on with the Christians, and therefore not start a new faith??
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Hmm… I think I understand your question…

I was quoting Abdul-Baha above:

A friend asked how the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh contrasted with the teachings of Jesus Christ. “The teachings are the same.” declared 'Abdu’l-Bahá;

"It is the same foundation and the same temple. Truth is one, and without division. The teachings of Jesus are in a concentrated form. Men do not agree to this day as to the meaning of many of His sayings. His teachings are as a flower in the bud. Today, the bud is unfolding into a flower! Bahá’u’lláh has expanded and fulfilled the teachings, and has applied them in detail to the whole world.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 92

He’s saying that the principles of the teachings of Jesus have been carried on by Baha’u’llah… and by this I would suggest He means that the principles of peace and reconciliation and spiritual life that were taught by Jesus were amplified by Baha’u’llah.

Now we Baha’is believe there has been only one religion of God but that the ordinances change … Jesus deferred to Moses and Abraham and Baha’u’llah many times deferred to Christ and cited the Gospels…

The Bab Himself quoted from the Gospels.

No Muslim writers or Mullahs honor the Gospels as the Bab and Baha’u’llah have done and it was early Baha’is that accepted the New Testaments in Farsi as presented by Christian Missionaries in the Middle East when Muslims would not… and it also must be said that Baha’is also encouraged reading the Qur’an in the West when there were only a few translations in English available to the public…

Our belief that prophecy has been fulfilled and that we believed this that means we accept the prophecies of the Book of Revelation or Apocalypse albeit in our own view.

The Apocalypse refers to the area around the Middle East and uses code names and numbers that we believe points to the events there…

Finally we sincerely believe that Christ Returned and that you can take for instance the life of Christ and the life of the Bab and find significant parallels.
 
An impressive parallel of Jesus and the Bab was presented by Bill Sears… One of my personal favorites because although not a scholar himself he had a way of popularizing some of these concepts so most could understand…

His list:
  1. They were both youthful.
  2. They were both known for their meekness and loving kindness.
  3. They both performed healing miracles.
  4. The period of their ministry was very brief in each
    case, and moved with dramatic swiftness to its climax.
  5. Both of them boldly challenged the time-honoured conventions, laws, and
    rites of the religions into which they had been born.
  6. They courageously condemned the unbridled graft and corruption which
    they saw on every side, both religious and secular.
  7. The purity of their own lives shamed the people among whom they taught.
  8. Their chief enemies were among the religious leaders of the
    land. These officials were the instigators of the outrages they
    were made to suffer.
  9. They both had indignities heaped upon them.
  10. They were both forcibly brought before the government
    authorities and were subject to public interrogation.
  11. They were both scourged following this interrogation.
  12. They both went, first in triumph then in suffering, through the streets of
    the city where they were to be slain.
  13. They were both paraded publicly, and heaped with humiliation, on the way to their place
    of martyrdom.
  14. They both spoke words of hope and promise to
    the one who was to die with them; in fact, almost the exact same
    words: ‘Thou shalt be with me in paradise.’
  15. They were both martyred publicly before the hostile gaze of the onlookers who
    crowded the scene.
  16. A darkness covered the land following their slaying, in each
    case beginning at noon.
  17. Their bodies were both lacerated by soldiers at the time of their slaying.
  18. They both remained in ignominious suspension before the eyes of an unfriendly
    multitude.
  19. Their bodies came finally into the hands of their
    loving followers.
  20. When their bodies, in each case, had vanished from the spot
    where they had been placed, the religious leaders explained away
    the fact.
  21. Only a handful of their followers were with them
    at the times of their deaths.
  22. In each case, one of their chief disciples denied knowing them. This same disciple, in each case, later became a hero.
  23. Each of them had an outstanding woman follower who played a dramatic part in making the disciples turn their faces from the past, and look toward the future.
  24. Confusion, bewilderment and despair seized their followers in each
    case, following their martyrdom.
  25. Through their disciples (the Peters and Pauls of each age) their Faiths were carried to all
    parts of the world.
  26. They both replied with the same exact
    words to the question: Are you the Promised One?
  27. Each of them addressed their disciples, charging them to carry their
    messages to the ends of the earth." (God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi)
From pp. 87-88 Thief in the Night by William Sears
 
vivs3/jenfla: I thought you said you were done here. Did you mean in this thread or with your previous post? Anyway, thanks for sticking around.

You said: “If the teachings are the same, why didn’t Bahaullah continue on with the Christians, and therefore not start a new faith??”

Jesus did not start a new faith when He appeared in the Jewish matrix; He renewed the ancient one that already existed. But He set a new direction for the understanding of many of the traditions, such as the work on the sabbath, condemnation of adulterers, divorce, and so on. In the same way, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah applied social teachings that were suited to the times, but the essence of God’s Faith is an unbroken thread, like the string of divine days that have their source in one Daystar…

If we are lovers of the light we adore it in whatever lamp it may become manifest
but if we love the lamp itself and the light is transferred to another lamp we will
neither accept nor sanction it. Therefore we must follow and adore the virtues revealed
in the messengers of God whether in Abraham, Moses, Jesus or other prophets but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp. We must recognize the sun no matter from what
dawning-point it may shine forth, be it Mosaic, Abrahamic or any personal point of
orientation whatever, for we are lovers of sunlight and not of orientation.
Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen
Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:57 & 58
**
We, verily, set foot within the School of God when ye lay slumbering;
and We perused the Tablet while ye were fast asleep. By the one true God!
We read the Tablet ere it was revealed, while ye were unaware,
and We had perfect knowledge of the Book when ye were yet unborn. These words are to your measure, not to God’s. To this testifieth that which is enshrined within His nowledge, if ye be of them that comprehend; and to this the tongue of the Almighty doth bear witness, if ye be of those who understand. I swear by God, were We to lift the veil, ye would be dumbfounded.** (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 83)
 
vivs3 said:
If the teachings are the same, why didn’t Bahaullah continue on with the Christians, and therefore not start a new faith??
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That’s because he was not a Christian, but a Muslim. He couldn’t “continue”, therefore, with the Christians…
 
arthra said:
An impressive parallel of Jesus and the Bab was presented by Bill Sears…
(…)5. Both of them boldly challenged the time-honoured conventions, laws, and
rites of the religions into which they had been born. This one sounds like a rather simplistic way of putting. Jesus may have challenged the tradition of the Sages of Israel developed to make sure the Torah was thoroughly observed, but not the Torah per se!
Anywhere where the love for God and the people’s neighbours was not really honoured, which were the “1st and 2nd commandments” in importance, then and only then Jesus would challenge the tradition.
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