B
- Status
D
DavidMark
Guest
i wouldn’t even bother to swallow the swill.
D
DavidMark
Guest
Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
O Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of mouldering bones counselleth thee, as voiced by Him Who is His Most Great Name. Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven. Thus hath bidden thee He Who is the Possessor of Names, on the part of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Exhort thou the kings and say: “Deal equitably with men. Beware lest ye transgress the bounds fixed in the Book.” This indeed becometh thee. Beware lest thou appropriate unto thyself the things of the world and the riches thereof. Leave them unto such as desire them, and cleave unto that which hath been enjoined upon thee by Him Who is the Lord of creation. Should anyone offer thee all the treasures of the earth, refuse to even glance upon them. Be as thy Lord hath been. Thus hath the Tongue of Revelation spoken that which God hath made the ornament of the book of creation. (Bahá’u’lláh, from the Tablet to Pope Pius IX, SLH, p. 55)
O Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of mouldering bones counselleth thee, as voiced by Him Who is His Most Great Name. Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven. Thus hath bidden thee He Who is the Possessor of Names, on the part of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Exhort thou the kings and say: “Deal equitably with men. Beware lest ye transgress the bounds fixed in the Book.” This indeed becometh thee. Beware lest thou appropriate unto thyself the things of the world and the riches thereof. Leave them unto such as desire them, and cleave unto that which hath been enjoined upon thee by Him Who is the Lord of creation. Should anyone offer thee all the treasures of the earth, refuse to even glance upon them. Be as thy Lord hath been. Thus hath the Tongue of Revelation spoken that which God hath made the ornament of the book of creation. (Bahá’u’lláh, from the Tablet to Pope Pius IX, SLH, p. 55)
B
Badi1919
Guest
L
Lapell
Guest
Which “World Centre” are you refering to, and who are the Ummayyads (Omawi)?
L
Lapell
Guest
We cannot know what it meant IF the symbols used in the book of the Apocalypse are NOT accurately interpreted according to what they meant when John wrote them
L
Lapell
Guest
Oops! I hadn’t read this one post… I tend to jump over very long posts. Sorry… would it be possible for you and DavidMark to condense your replies even more or to summarize what you mean to say?
Anyhow, this one part of the post answers my question about the Umayyads. Thanks!
As for an interest in “gematria”… well, OK, as long as it doesn’t keep you from following God’s ways concretely!
D
DavidMark
Guest
Hi Lapell, Thanks for encouraging me to be conservative with my posts. I admit to prolixity!
In Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
Joseph is reminding them that only God can inspire the right interpretation, and then he proceeds to interpret their dreams, knowing God supported him in it. This happened again when Baha’u’llah was in prison in Tihran, and interpreted the dream of His fellow-prisoner,
He was released, “did His time” and was seen as the Prince He was, for the way He lived His life. His Son Abdu’l-Baha even saved grain that helped the people of Galilee during the first World War. (i diverge
so much to say!)So, only such an inspired One can interpret Revelation. Baha’u’llah interprets it based on His own divine Revelation, which has its proofs, its signs, and believers. As always, others are free to accept it or not.
Truly, the only One Who can interpret the Book is the One Who inspired it. I think of this when I read Luke 4:16 about Jesus in the synagogue, where He announced “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me…” from Isaiah. Since the Lord Christ was before Abraham, He is the One Who inspired Isaiah (although it would be hard to prove, I believe it mystically).
D
DavidMark
Guest
Lapell (continued):
Interpretation is an important subject for Baha’s, and it is dealt with in detail not seen in previous Dispensations.
**After the departure of Christ many appeared who were instrumental in creating factions, schisms and discussions. It became difficult to know which one was following the right path. One of these disturbers was Nestorius, a Syrian, who proclaimed that Christ was not a Prophet of God. This created a division and sect called the Nestorians.
The Catholics declared Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, even pronouncing Him to be Deity itself. The Protestants announced the doctrine that Christ embodied two elements: the human and the divine. In brief, divisions were created in the religion of God, and it was not known which was pursuing the right pathway because there was no appointed center to whom Christ referred everyone, no successor whose word was a gateway to the truth.
If Christ had revealed a Covenant with some soul, commanding all to cling to his word and interpretation as correct, it would have been evident which belief and statement was valid and true. Inasmuch as there was no appointed explainer of the Book of Christ, everyone made the claim to authority, saying, “This is the true pathway and others are not.” To ward off such dissensions as these and prevent any person from creating a division or sect the Blessed Perfection, Bahá’u’lláh, appointed a central authoritative Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book.** (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 381)
Interpretation is an important subject for Baha’s, and it is dealt with in detail not seen in previous Dispensations.
**After the departure of Christ many appeared who were instrumental in creating factions, schisms and discussions. It became difficult to know which one was following the right path. One of these disturbers was Nestorius, a Syrian, who proclaimed that Christ was not a Prophet of God. This created a division and sect called the Nestorians.
The Catholics declared Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, even pronouncing Him to be Deity itself. The Protestants announced the doctrine that Christ embodied two elements: the human and the divine. In brief, divisions were created in the religion of God, and it was not known which was pursuing the right pathway because there was no appointed center to whom Christ referred everyone, no successor whose word was a gateway to the truth.
If Christ had revealed a Covenant with some soul, commanding all to cling to his word and interpretation as correct, it would have been evident which belief and statement was valid and true. Inasmuch as there was no appointed explainer of the Book of Christ, everyone made the claim to authority, saying, “This is the true pathway and others are not.” To ward off such dissensions as these and prevent any person from creating a division or sect the Blessed Perfection, Bahá’u’lláh, appointed a central authoritative Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book.** (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 381)
L
Lapell
Guest
Can you easily tell a false prophesy from a true one? It looks easy when you read cases like in Jeremiah 28 (the whole chapter) or in 1 Kings 22 (the whole chapter), or from a contest such as in 1 Kings 18, 17-40 between the prophet Elijah and the prophets of Baal…Hi Lapell, Thanks for encouraging me to be conservative with my posts. I admit to prolixity!
LAPELL: It’s not a matter of being “conservative”, but a matter of being more accessible and more readable to your readers. Not all of us are PhD! I’m not one myself1
So, only such an inspired One can interpret Revelation. Baha’u’llah interprets it based on His own divine Revelation, which has its proofs, its signs, and believers. As always, others are free to accept it or not.
Truly, the only One Who can interpret the Book is the One Who inspired it. I think of this when I read Luke 4:16 about Jesus in the synagogue, where He announced “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me…” from Isaiah. Since the Lord Christ was before Abraham, He is the One Who inspired Isaiah (although it would be hard to prove, I believe it mystically).
L
Lapell
Guest
And then John the Baptist came, who made no signs according to the people (even though the baptism he was proclaiming for the repentance from sins was in itself a sign, or at least a call to the people for conversion, renouncing their bad deeds and adopting God’s ways), but about whom it was said that everything he had said about Jesus of Nazareth was the truth. They would believe it from Jesus’ own signs. And yet, why did Jesus not convince the Jewish authorities that he was the promised Messiah?
How can one really tell between a true prophet of God and a false one (or a prophet of gods who aren’t)?? Whose clues shall you follow?
D
DavidMark
Guest
I’ve come to accept that if a Prophet raises up a people from a degraded state to a more honorable state, he is a True Prophet. For instance, Jews and Christians both believe that Moses was true --he raised up the degraded Israelites until they became one of the leading nations of the time in science and philosophy --so much so that Greek philosophers came to study in the Holy Land. This hasn’t hurt the Christians; in fact they’ve promoted the understanding of Moses and spread the OT with the NT around the world. But the Jewish leaders opposed Jesus and now, “da Nile” is really an element of the Jewish faith!
Muhammad also raised up the savage warring tribes to a civilization that had the colleges in Cordoba and Baghdad, when Europe was in the dark ages. That is enough for me. The proof is in the pudding. The value in Mormonism is in what it has kept of Christianity.
It has only been a 150 years, but already Baha’u’llah has broken down the prejudices of those who love Him, so that a truly international community elects its leadership in the Holy Land by secret prayerful ballot every five years, and this has never happened before. Baha’is have their gaze on the future, no matter what kind of persecution dying Islam throws at them. This is the test of a real Prophet: Do his teachings steadfastly advance and ennoble mankind after he is gone? The minor cults dissipate after the founder dies, or attach themselves to an ideology that is well-rooted. Even the cultures of true Prophets reach an apex and then drop into decline. The Book of Revelation promised the Advent would be a “day not followed by night” --so we will have to see.
L
Lapell
Guest
Yeah, of course this hasn’t hurt the Christians, simply because Christianity is the Jewish faith at a latter step. Jesus having claimed to be equal to God, nothing less, and the Jewish leaders having thought that he was a man claiming to be God, rather than God having assumed the human nature, they declared him to have blasphemed and condemned him because of this. A consequence of this was that the Christians of Jewish origin were no longer acknowledged as Jews by the Jewish leaders (and the Jewish people after their ruling).
D
DavidMark
Guest
Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered bythe children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty, and drink deep from the pure waters of ancient wisdom, and partake of the fruit of the tree of divine knowledge. Such is the share of the pure in heart of the bread that hath descended from the realms of eternity and holiness.
Should you acquaint yourself with the indignities heaped upon the Prophets of God, and apprehend the true causes of the objections voiced by their oppressors, you will surely appreciate the significance of their position. Moreover, the more closely you observe the denials of those who have opposed the Manifestations of the divine attributes, the firmer will be your faith in the Cause of God. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 5)
Should you acquaint yourself with the indignities heaped upon the Prophets of God, and apprehend the true causes of the objections voiced by their oppressors, you will surely appreciate the significance of their position. Moreover, the more closely you observe the denials of those who have opposed the Manifestations of the divine attributes, the firmer will be your faith in the Cause of God. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 5)
D
DavidMark
Guest
Lapell & all: I find it curious that this question comes up. People should know as easily as they know wet from dry, and light from dark.
There are criteria given by the Prophets you do believe in! And if you don’t believe in any, why is that? Would God create us and not educate us? And if you don’t believe in God, why is THAT? (But that is another topic)
Deuteronomy 18:21 **'How may we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? --When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumtuously, you need not be afraid of him. **
Baha’u’llah gave many prophecies, and He was determined to convey that they were spoken for the Lord. Here is one of them, written in 1873:
O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.(Kitab-i-Aqdas, #90)
Now could someone explain to me why it was He wrote that from Akko, in Palestine, when He did, in the name of the Lord, and we should forget God’s instruction in Deuteronomy?
B
Badi1919
Guest
A
arthra
Guest
I suppose some sort of explanation is required of Badi who likes large size print and bright colors…also anyone can read for themselves … there are certainly different versions and accounts you can read and a historian must decide which accounts carry more weight.
So this how I understand it…
Back in August 1868 the government of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire sentenced Baha’u’llah and His half -brother Subh-i-Azal to exile… sending Subh-i-Azal to Farmagusta, Cyprus and sending Baha’u’llah to the prison fortress of Akka… in order to keep an eye on both a strategy was devised to send some of the adherents of each to supposedly spy and report on the prisoners.
So four followers of Baha’u’llah were exiled to Cyprus and four Azalis were sent to Akka…
Among the four sent to Cyprus was the well known calligrapher Mishkin Qalam “The musk scented pen”… The Baha’is on Cyprus were not happy with the situation and as soon as they could they returned to the Holy Land to gain the presence of Baha’u’llah.
The Azalis sent to Akka according to the Baha’is kept track of who went to see Baha’u’llah and tried to foment trouble and this led some misguided Baha’is without the authorization of Baha’u’llah to murder the Azalis…
*23 Jan 1872 Murder of Siyyid Muhammad (the one who had constantly manipulated Mirza Yahya into his cowardly acts), Aqa Jan Big and another companion Covenant-breaker in 'Akka in retaliation for their persecutions. Bahá’u’lláh had forbidden any act of retaliation, but seven of His tormented companions succumbed. An army of men descended upon the Bahá’ís. The seven guilty men were confined for several years. The remainder were confined for six months. The distress caused to Bahá’u’lláh of this event was immeasurable: “That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me”. *
As to Subh-i-Azal he was left alone by the Baha’is sent with his family and was later isolated by his own followers to a great degree…He passed on in 1912 on the island of Cyprus.
There is an article you can read on the subject by historian Mujan Momen at
bahai-library.org/file.php?file=momen_cyprus_exiles
be patient and scroll down to the article.
So this how I understand it…
Back in August 1868 the government of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire sentenced Baha’u’llah and His half -brother Subh-i-Azal to exile… sending Subh-i-Azal to Farmagusta, Cyprus and sending Baha’u’llah to the prison fortress of Akka… in order to keep an eye on both a strategy was devised to send some of the adherents of each to supposedly spy and report on the prisoners.
So four followers of Baha’u’llah were exiled to Cyprus and four Azalis were sent to Akka…
Among the four sent to Cyprus was the well known calligrapher Mishkin Qalam “The musk scented pen”… The Baha’is on Cyprus were not happy with the situation and as soon as they could they returned to the Holy Land to gain the presence of Baha’u’llah.
The Azalis sent to Akka according to the Baha’is kept track of who went to see Baha’u’llah and tried to foment trouble and this led some misguided Baha’is without the authorization of Baha’u’llah to murder the Azalis…
*23 Jan 1872 Murder of Siyyid Muhammad (the one who had constantly manipulated Mirza Yahya into his cowardly acts), Aqa Jan Big and another companion Covenant-breaker in 'Akka in retaliation for their persecutions. Bahá’u’lláh had forbidden any act of retaliation, but seven of His tormented companions succumbed. An army of men descended upon the Bahá’ís. The seven guilty men were confined for several years. The remainder were confined for six months. The distress caused to Bahá’u’lláh of this event was immeasurable: “That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me”. *
As to Subh-i-Azal he was left alone by the Baha’is sent with his family and was later isolated by his own followers to a great degree…He passed on in 1912 on the island of Cyprus.
There is an article you can read on the subject by historian Mujan Momen at
bahai-library.org/file.php?file=momen_cyprus_exiles
be patient and scroll down to the article.
D
DavidMark
Guest
I tried to be discreet about this. Let’s answer only sincere questions.
“…Thou hast asked some questions; that why the blessed and spiritual souls, who are firm and steadfast, shun the company of degenerate persons. This is because, that just as the bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious, likewise the spiritual diseases are also infectious. If a consumptive should associate with a thousand safe and healthy persons, the safety and health of these thousand persons would not affect the consumptive and would not cure him of his consumptions. But when this consumptive associates with those thousand souls, in a short time the disease of consumption will infect a number of those healthy persons. This is a clear and self-evident question.”
('Abdu’l-Bahá: Tablet to an individual believer, October 1921: Star of the West, Vol. XII, No. 14, p. 233)
“…Covenant Breaking is truly a Spiritual disease, and the whole view-point and attitude of a Covenant Breaker is so poisonous that the Master likened it to leprosy, and warned the friends to breathe the same air was dangerous. This should not be taken literally; He meant when you are close enough to breathe the same air you are close enough to contact their corrupting influence… (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 29, 1946)
“…Thou hast asked some questions; that why the blessed and spiritual souls, who are firm and steadfast, shun the company of degenerate persons. This is because, that just as the bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious, likewise the spiritual diseases are also infectious. If a consumptive should associate with a thousand safe and healthy persons, the safety and health of these thousand persons would not affect the consumptive and would not cure him of his consumptions. But when this consumptive associates with those thousand souls, in a short time the disease of consumption will infect a number of those healthy persons. This is a clear and self-evident question.”
('Abdu’l-Bahá: Tablet to an individual believer, October 1921: Star of the West, Vol. XII, No. 14, p. 233)
“…Covenant Breaking is truly a Spiritual disease, and the whole view-point and attitude of a Covenant Breaker is so poisonous that the Master likened it to leprosy, and warned the friends to breathe the same air was dangerous. This should not be taken literally; He meant when you are close enough to breathe the same air you are close enough to contact their corrupting influence… (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 29, 1946)
S
Sen_McGlinn
Guest
Artha, the paper you linked to does not get to the point. A shorter account of what happened reads:
“Finally in 1868, after politicking from both sides [Azalis and Bahais], the Ottomans decided to exile Baha’ Allah to ‘Akka in Palestine and Subh al-Azal to Famagusta in Cyprus. Controversially they sent a party of Azali Babis with Baha’'u’llah to Palestine and a party of Baha’is with Subh al-Azal to Cyprus most likely to act as spies on each other… A major crisis occurred in 1872, when a few baha’i hotheads finally murdered the resident Azalis who had been making difficulties for them (22 january). This action was strongly condemned by Baha’u’llah. Thereafter, however, relation sbetween the bahais and the local authorities and inhabitants eased…” - Smith,* A Concise Encyclopedia of the Baha’i Faith* 77-8.]
To that I would add that Baha’u’llah was taken to an interrogation on the day of the murders and was held overnight before being released. If there had been any question of his being involved, he would not have been released, and relations with the city authorities would not have improved after this.
This is the most shameful chapter in Bahai history. It is not concealed by Bahais but rather described as shameful, and an object lesson, in Bahai history books. Shoghi Effendi’s God Passes By, for example, says:
“Finally in 1868, after politicking from both sides [Azalis and Bahais], the Ottomans decided to exile Baha’ Allah to ‘Akka in Palestine and Subh al-Azal to Famagusta in Cyprus. Controversially they sent a party of Azali Babis with Baha’'u’llah to Palestine and a party of Baha’is with Subh al-Azal to Cyprus most likely to act as spies on each other… A major crisis occurred in 1872, when a few baha’i hotheads finally murdered the resident Azalis who had been making difficulties for them (22 january). This action was strongly condemned by Baha’u’llah. Thereafter, however, relation sbetween the bahais and the local authorities and inhabitants eased…” - Smith,* A Concise Encyclopedia of the Baha’i Faith* 77-8.]
To that I would add that Baha’u’llah was taken to an interrogation on the day of the murders and was held overnight before being released. If there had been any question of his being involved, he would not have been released, and relations with the city authorities would not have improved after this.
This is the most shameful chapter in Bahai history. It is not concealed by Bahais but rather described as shameful, and an object lesson, in Bahai history books. Shoghi Effendi’s God Passes By, for example, says:
D
DavidMark
Guest
Thank you Sen. What a difficulty for the renewal of Faith to suffer at the outset!
It is not easy defending Prophets from God. As a Bahá’í on Catholic Forums, I have to fend off the attacks of an Azalí, defend the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh to the Muhammadans, defend Muhammad to the Christians, (even though, at their worst, they are persecuting us in Iran), and all of the above to the Jews! It’s great!
It would be all right to discount any prophet after Jesus, except that in many places provision is made for their appearance. In Revelation chapter 11, it is promised that two prophets will arise, be “slain” and stand up again after 1260 “days.” So, how can Catholics say no prophets will come after Jesus? It is true, there are two kinds of prophets: the Law-Givers and those who promote the Law. Neither kind are impossible to or forbidden by God. Now come more prophets with a ‘Word of knowledge’ and warning for the RCC and other churches. To ignore the warning is unbiblical. By giving the warning, it is implied that there will be good and bad prophets, which we will have to test!
Mark 11:31 **And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? **11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Now the Vatican Archives has the Tablet from Bahá’u’lláh in it, but the Popes have not wanted to talk about it, apparently. If they acknowledge it, it will be evident that they have rejected its’ Message; if they speak against it they may incur a difficulty that is more worrisome to them than the result of actual rejection. So, they remain non-committal about it, and hope that it will never come up; but it will come up!
The mullahs who now govern Iran have the same sort of inward fear and anxiety about the Bahá’í Yaran that they hold without trial. If they hold a trial, they have no evidence of treachery against them except that their World Centre is in Israel, which they detest. If they murder them as they did many others before, the whole world will know about it; and they will never hear the end of it from Human Rights organizations. If they release them, they would have to apologize for their injustice, and that would make them look bad. So, they continue to hold them in limbo, incommunicado. God makes everything they do come back to them.
It is not easy defending Prophets from God. As a Bahá’í on Catholic Forums, I have to fend off the attacks of an Azalí, defend the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh to the Muhammadans, defend Muhammad to the Christians, (even though, at their worst, they are persecuting us in Iran), and all of the above to the Jews! It’s great!
It would be all right to discount any prophet after Jesus, except that in many places provision is made for their appearance. In Revelation chapter 11, it is promised that two prophets will arise, be “slain” and stand up again after 1260 “days.” So, how can Catholics say no prophets will come after Jesus? It is true, there are two kinds of prophets: the Law-Givers and those who promote the Law. Neither kind are impossible to or forbidden by God. Now come more prophets with a ‘Word of knowledge’ and warning for the RCC and other churches. To ignore the warning is unbiblical. By giving the warning, it is implied that there will be good and bad prophets, which we will have to test!
Mark 11:31 **And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? **11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Now the Vatican Archives has the Tablet from Bahá’u’lláh in it, but the Popes have not wanted to talk about it, apparently. If they acknowledge it, it will be evident that they have rejected its’ Message; if they speak against it they may incur a difficulty that is more worrisome to them than the result of actual rejection. So, they remain non-committal about it, and hope that it will never come up; but it will come up!
The mullahs who now govern Iran have the same sort of inward fear and anxiety about the Bahá’í Yaran that they hold without trial. If they hold a trial, they have no evidence of treachery against them except that their World Centre is in Israel, which they detest. If they murder them as they did many others before, the whole world will know about it; and they will never hear the end of it from Human Rights organizations. If they release them, they would have to apologize for their injustice, and that would make them look bad. So, they continue to hold them in limbo, incommunicado. God makes everything they do come back to them.
- Status