The Baptist Church and it's policy on baptism

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JL: Quote: First baptism is God’s work. It’s a grace, a free gift,

DAVID: If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act .Yes God baptizes us with Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ .That is free and can occur before you do something like baptism. Acts 10:44- “While Peter spoke these words (the gospel) the Holy Ghost fell upon them which heard the word”. They spoke with tongues and magnified God , just as the apostles did on Pentecost . This is the washing of regeneration , washed by His Word and baptized in the Holy Ghost . Now that is free, a work of God. Then they were baptized .Why ? To receive the Holy Ghost ? , No. They already had. For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ? This is your
Titus 3: 5 - the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit -before water baptism.You quote Acts 2 and want to put it in concrete for doctrinal purposes, but the fact is the pattern is similar .The people did not believe . They then heard Peter speak, and now , all of sudden, gladly receive his words ,the gospel ! Why ? Because they were washed by the word and regenerated ( the washing of regeneration), for the flesh is at enmity with God but now had a new heart - BEFORE water baptism.

JL: You would have Peter contradicting Acts2:38. You even recognized your tradition would contradict Acts2:38 posting another time, that Gentiles are saved differently than Jews. Which contradicts 1Cor12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might **sanctify and cleanse it with the WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,] We are sanctified and cleansed with the WASHING OF WATER by the WORD.

[Titus3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, BUT according to his mercy he saved us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost;] [Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

[Hb10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, **having our hearts sprinkled FROM AN EVIL CONCIENCE, and our bodies washed with pure water.] That pure water is the Holy Spirit acting thru water baptism. Just as Christ tells us EXCEPT born OF water AND OF the Spirit, Jn3:5.

1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good CONSCIENCE toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

As far as your point they were saved (indwelled by the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized with water. According to your own theory. They would have been saved (spiritually baptized, indwelled by the Holy Spirit) even before Peter arrived and certainly BEFORE speaking in tongues. They already feared and BELIEVED in God. Acts10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. With your theology no one, including the apostles, was saved till the Holy Spirit came on them a Pentecost?

Cornelius and household were the first Gentiles to become Christian. They were given the GIFT of speaking in tongues. This does not mean they were, as you say SAVED with the indwelling Holy Spirit. In the OT a donkey was given the gift to speak. That does not mean he was saved and had the indwelling Holy Spirit. [2Pt2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Boor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: **the dumb *** (donkey) speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.] The donkey spoke with a man’s voice by an actual grace gift of tongues The donkey was NOT indwelled by the Holy Spirit with habitual grace. The same with Cornelius, that’s why he was baptized to receive habitual grace the indwelling Holy Spirit. CONTINUED:
 
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The indwelling comes by water baptism after their sins are washed away, Acts2:37-38. The gift of speaking in tongues was given as a sign. So Peter, along with those Jewish Christians with him would realize God now accepts uncircumcised Gentiles. [Acts11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.] That vision and speaking in tongues is why they were not first circumcised and then baptized.

The Holy Ghost AGAIN fell upon those who were present a Pentecost in [Act4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and **grant unto thy servants, that with all BOLDNESS they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and they spake the word of God with BOLDNESS.]

These are the same people who were confirmed and filled the the Holy Ghost on Pentecost. Now they are FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AGAIN, praying for the gift of BOLDNESS. They already had the indwelling Holy Ghost at baptism. They were empowered to witness when they received gifts from the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. In Acts4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and they spake the word of God with BOLDNESS.] It was a gift, earnestly sought and prayed for, given by the Holy Spirit for a purpose. Anyone can pray for a gift and receive it if the Holy Spirit wills.

Just as the donkey didn’t receive salvation by the indwelling Holy Spirit when it was given the gift of speaking. With your tradition, we receive the Holy Spirit and are born again when we first believe. So wouldn’t that mean the apostles didn’t even have faith or BELIEVE till Pentecost.

David: First ,I am afraid many people that have done this are like many Catholics -not saved or born again ,in danger of hell. Now for both denominations , he who calls out to the Lord shall be saved . Is calling out a work ? Is asking, begging a work ? Jesus saves .Jesus saves. Not my church or your church or an altar call or a rite.We all know too many people that are religious but dead .Yet we know many people that are religious and really saved , really born again , really seem to love Jesus. So yes I am paranoid of works , just works. We should all hate dead works.

JL: Wow, how easily you JUDGE your fellowman. When you pray do you also thank God that you are not like most men? [Lk18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.] If all you see is the sin, you don’t know if they latter repented or not. By the way there is no such thing as ONE Protestant denomination.

So all who just call on the name of the Lord or SAY Lord, Lord will be saved? Doesn’t that contradict scripture? [Mt7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; **BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.] Well using your definition for works, “If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act.”] Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
 
david ruiz:
Whatever they did in the catacombs , how do I know Catholics did not further develop it , beyond their recognition ? If they had the same doctrine as current Catholics ,then they were wrong in the catacombs .Why not, they were wrong even while the apostles were still alive -on some things
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:rolleyes:

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Well, there it is, folks:
David ishttp://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif right.
The whole rest of the world is http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/2.gifwrong, wrong, wrong.
We’re all going tohttp://bestsmileys.com/surprised/2.gif hell in a handbasket
. Even thehttp://bestsmileys.com/horses1/5.gif horses.
Break out the barrel, boys!! http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/2.gif
Let’s all have a real good time, for tomorrow:http://bestsmileys.com/exploding/1.gif
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I only regret that I can think of no logical use for Nestorius.
Alas, poor laddie; he’ll never rise from his coffin again.
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david_ruiz said:
JL: Quote: You have been totally unable to show one scripture telling us we are BORN AGAIN and regenerated when we first believe. First baptism is God’s work. It’s a grace, a free gift,
.
DAVID: False .You just don’t "see"it. Are you saying the two examples in Acts the people did NOT believe ,while speaking in tongues and "being glad " for the gospel ???. "We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus " (with baptism following) Gal. 3:26 . " Of His own will he begat us with the word of truth " James 1:18 ( Both fullfilled with our 2 Acts examples-they heard Peter’s WORDS and believed) . “Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible ,by the word of God,which liveth and abideth forever. " 1 Peter 1:23 'He that believeth on him is not condemned, but has everlasting life”. John 3:16-18 paraphrase - He just finished saying if you are born again you see the kingdom - everlasting life in his kingdom -what was the qualification ? -believe on him for salvation. Jesus saves Jesus saves.I Don’t want my church or yours to say anything else. “Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ is born of God”, 1 John 5:1

JL: Yes we are begat with the Word, we are BORN AGAIN by water and of the Spirit in water baptism. Delivered a child of God. I’m begat with the seed of my father, I am later born and delivered his child. It isn’t only I don’t see it but more importantly scripture doesn’t say, when one speaks in tongues they are BORN AGAIN, regenerated and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is evident by a donkey speaking in man’s tongue. Unless of course you believe the donkey received the indwelling Holy Spirit and was saved. The donkey didn’t speak on its own. It could only speak by the working of the Holy Spirit

I have NEVER said they didn’t BELIEVE those are your words not mine. Of course they believed, in an Adult belief comes first ALWAYS, as I have posted before. I am saying scripture tells us one is BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit as Christ told Nichodemus in Jn3:5. I am saying scripture says one is REGENERATED thru water baptism Titus3:5, when our sins are remitted, Acts2:38 and washed away, Acts22:16. I’m saying scripture says one RECEIVES the indwelling Holy Spirit when born again a child of God, Gal3:20-21, and regenerated in water baptism, Titus3:5, which now save us, 1Pt3:20-21, Acts2:40-41.

DAVID: ???. "We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus " (with baptism following) Gal. 3:26 . " Of His own will he begat us with the word of truth " James 1:18 ( Both fullfilled with our 2 Acts examples-they heard Peter’s WORDS and believed) . "Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible ,by the word of God

JL: [Gal3:26 For **ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
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. 27 For AS MANY AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.] We are not children of God until we have put on Christ in baptism. Yes He BEGAT us with the Word of truth, but we are not born again His child till we are baptized. Born again by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. I am born OF the seed of my natural father, yet I am not actually born (delivered) his child till I am formed nine months latter. We are born again BY the seed (Word) of our heavely Father, but we are not actually born again (delivered) His child till we are baptized by water AND of the Spirit.

[Act2:37 Now **when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 40 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were ADDED unto them about three thousand souls.] We are not added, or enter, into the covenant kingdom of God, the body of Christ (the Chruch) until we are born again a child of God by water AND of the Spirit.
 
david ruiz:
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There have been several studies done to show this to be popycock ,Why I have seen Catholics say there are 50,000 denominations ,and still growing ! The fact is if use your criteria ,every parish could bea denomination/subdivision unto itself .No,there are only 6-7 types of denominations in Christianity.If you want to further expand the criteria ,there are different rites /denominations /subdivisions in Catholicism also.
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This is a cop-out and another way of defending the thousands of divisions that exist outside of the CC. You are dead wrong to believe every parish could be a seperate entity/denomination…this is weak! All parishes are under the same umbrella,so I have no idea where you get your information and make bogus conclusions. By the way,rites are NOT denominations,many Protestants are in error by saying rites are denominations.

Protestants simply want to justify their divisions and now want to drag the CC into the mix.
 
JL: Quote: Nor are you able to post one scripture saying baptism is a confession only. said:
www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of INTERPOLATION

an act of interpolating something or the state of being interpolated : the introduction or insertion of something spurious or foreign; something that is introduced or inserted : an insertion or addition… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
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Yes one can be righteous and not be BRON AGAIN. OT saints were righteous but were not BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. They didn’t have the indwelling Holy Spirit, except for prophets.

DAVID: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation " Matt 10:32, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men , him will I confess before the father”. Now for the interpolation: Mark 16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” So both scriptures have “BELIEVE” , but one then says, “CONFESS” and the other says,“BE BAPTIZED”.

JL: And another scripture says, repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38. I have no problem with any scripture. With the MOUTH CONFESSION is made before men not with Baptism. Baptism remits sins and gives the Holy Spirit. That’s much more than a confession. [Acts2:38 Then **Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation. 40 Then they that gladly received his word WERE BAPTIZED: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.]

How did they save themselves from a crooked generation when they gladly received his word? Baptism which doth now save us1Pt3:21. That’s MUCH more than a mere confession of what has already taken place.

David: Look, when we are baptized we are asked if that is our confession ,that Jesus is our Savoir and Lord , and we proclaim to all who are attending the ceremony, along with any testimony of how we came to faith in Christ.

JL: Maybe you made a confession WITH YOUR MOUTH, before men. I would like to know the name of your faith group. I was baptized as a Protestant. I have been to lots of different Protestant baptisms. The person being baptized said nothing at their baptism nor did I. If you made a confession, as you say, it was with your MOUTH not your baptism. Your confession would be no different than an altar call. The very scripture you post tells us we confess with the MOUTH. The only way you can make your theology work is adding to the text by interpolation, as you have admited above and below.

David: That is how I put Matt and Mark together and say baptism is a confession of what God has already done,with His word,and that He has washed us in regeneration -all before water baptism.

JL: Yes, interpolation, that’s how YOU put Matt and Mark together adding or corrupting the text, inserting baptism for mouth. Please show me, without interpolation, one scripture telling us baptism is a confession only?

Baptism remits sins and gives the Holy Spirit, [Acts2:38 Then **Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Was Peter wrong and scripture in error. When people asked what to do. Peter DIDN’T SAY, since you believe you are now saved, born again, regenerated, be baptized as a confession of what God has already done? Peter said to those who believed, repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Please show me ONE SCRIPTURE telling us baptism is a confession of what God has already done?
You posted; “If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act .Yes God baptizes us with Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ. That is free and can occur before you do something like baptism. ]

JL: Then your tradition would contradict Peter in Acts2:40-41. Peter tells us those that were BAPTIZED were ADDED unto them. To what were they ADDED UNTO the body of Christ the Church.

[Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then **they that gladly received his word WERE BAPTIZED: and the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.]

Again You posted; “Then they were baptized .Why ? To receive the Holy Ghost ? , No. They already had. For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ?”]

JL: Correct the Holy Spirit cannot indwell one in sin. Scripture tells us our sins are REMITTED and WASHED AWAY with BAPTISM, after one BELIEVES and REPENTS. Act2:38 …. Repent, be baptized …. FOR REMISSION OF SINS, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. Also Acts22:16 be baptized WASH AWAY THY SINS. By the way when we willfully sin in a serious matter after baptism we lose that indwelling Holy Spirit (eternal life). Until we repent and confess our sins in the Sacrament of Confession. Then the Holy Spirit can once again indwell our soul. As you say the Holy Spirit can’t enter were there is sin.
 
jlhargus said:
david ruiz;8234946:
JL: Quote: You have been totally unable to show one scripture telling us we are BORN AGAIN and regenerated when we first believe. First baptism is God’s work. It’s a grace, a free gift,
.
DAVID: False .You just don’t "see"it. Are you saying the two examples in Acts the people did NOT believe ,while speaking in tongues and "being glad " for the gospel ???. "We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus " (with baptism following) Gal. 3:26 . " Of His own will he begat us with the word of truth " James 1:18 ( Both fullfilled with our 2 Acts examples-they heard Peter’s WORDS and believed) . “Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible ,by the word of God,which liveth and abideth forever. " 1 Peter 1:23 'He that believeth on him is not condemned, but has everlasting life”. John 3:16-18 paraphrase - He just finished saying if you are born again you see the kingdom - everlasting life in his kingdom -what was the qualification ? -believe on him for salvation. Jesus saves Jesus saves.I Don’t want my church or yours to say anything else. “Whosoever BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Christ is born of God”, 1 John 5:1

JL: Yes we are begat with the Word, we are BORN AGAIN by water and of the Spirit in water baptism. Delivered a child of God. I’m begat with the seed of my father, I am later born and delivered his child. It isn’t only I don’t see it but more importantly scripture doesn’t say, when one speaks in tongues they are BORN AGAIN, regenerated and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is evident by a donkey speaking in man’s tongue. Unless of course you believe the donkey received the indwelling Holy Spirit and was saved. The donkey didn’t speak on its own. It could only speak by the working of the Holy Spirit

I have NEVER said they didn’t BELIEVE those are your words not mine. Of course they believed, in an Adult belief comes first ALWAYS, as I have posted before. I am saying scripture tells us one is BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit as Christ told Nichodemus in Jn3:5. I am saying scripture says one is REGENERATED thru water baptism Titus3:5, when our sins are remitted, Acts2:38 and washed away, Acts22:16. I’m saying scripture says one RECEIVES the indwelling Holy Spirit when born again a child of God, Gal3:20-21, and regenerated in water baptism, Titus3:5, which now save us, 1Pt3:20-21, Acts2:40-41.

DAVID: ???. "We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus " (with baptism following) Gal. 3:26 . " Of His own will he begat us with the word of truth " James 1:18 ( Both fullfilled with our 2 Acts examples-they heard Peter’s WORDS and believed) . "Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible ,by the word of God

JL: [Gal3:26 For **ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
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. 27 For AS MANY AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.] We are not children of God until we have put on Christ in baptism. Yes He BEGAT us with the Word of truth, but we are not born again His child till we are baptized. Born again by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. I am born OF the seed of my natural father, yet I am not actually born (delivered) his child till I am formed nine months latter. We are born again BY the seed (Word) of our heavely Father, but we are not actually born again (delivered) His child till we are baptized by water AND of the Spirit.

[Act2:37 Now **when they heard
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this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 40 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were ADDED unto them about three thousand souls.] We are not added, or enter, into the covenant kingdom of God, the body of Christ (the Chruch) until we are born again a child of God by water AND of the Spirit.
 
Nicea325 said:
This is a cop-out and another way of defending the thousands of divisions that exist outside of the CC. You are dead wrong to believe every parish could be a seperate entity/denomination…this is weak! All parishes are under the same umbrella,so I have no idea where you get your information and make bogus conclusions. By the way,rites are NOT denominations,many Protestants are in error by saying rites are denominations.

Protestants simply want to justify their divisions and now want to drag the CC into the mix.
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JL: 👍
 
DAVID: That is partly why Paul says," I came not to baptize but to preach the gospel " 1Cor. 1:17 How could Paul say that if indeed baptism were effectual -making you born again ?

JL: Traveling Evangelist RARELY baptized they preached the gospel. It was left to others with him or the local church to baptize. Just like Billy Graham or any Protestant traveling Evangelist today.

[1Cor1:16 And ** I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.] Stephanas lived in Achia Southern Greece today.

Paul preached and was present if not the one who baptized the household of Lydia. [Acts16:12-15 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and **we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, ….] Doesn’t say who baptized might have been Silas who was traveling with Paul or could have been a local person. Philippi is in North Eastern Greece today.

The jailer and household lived in Philippi were Paul and Silas were in jail. Then an earthquake damaged the jail. Again Paul and Silas were present at the jailor’s house, Acts16:23-40. If Paul didn’t baptize them Silas did.

DAVID: Or could it be that he knew by the Word(preaching the gospel) men come to believe and are born again , and that baptism is the outward sign or sealing of that (not effectual , except for a clean conscience of obedience ) ?

JL: We certainly all know along with Paul that hearing, the Word, men come to BELIEVE. We also know those who believe must repent, be baptized FOR REMISSION of SINS, receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38. It could not be otherwise, else scripture would say so, without contradicting another scripture.

Please post that WORD, Paul knew, when men came to believe they are BORN AGAIN? Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, HOW can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 JESUS ANSWERED, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Also please post the WORD, Paul knew, that baptism is an outward sign and not effectual? You make all kind of statements but never post evidence. Yes baptism is a sealing and much, much, more than a confession or an outward ineffectual sign. You contradict scripture when you say baptism is NOT EFFECTUAL. Acts2:38 says repent, be baptized, FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]

[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] How does scripture tell us we are REGENERATED?

[TITUS 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.]

Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
 
DAVID: To throw a monkey wrench in it ,how about this They believed on the lord Jesus and were baptized,and continued with Philip beholding miracles and signs Then Peter and John came down to Samaria,prayed for them ,that they might receive the Holy Ghost for as yet he was fallen upon none of them,only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8 Charismatic movement anyone ?

JL: It may be a monkey wrench to you we call it the Sacrament of Confirmation. The Sacrament of Confirmation comes after baptism. It is the baptized’s Pentecost, being first born again, regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit and delivered a child thru water baptism. With the Sacrament of Confirmation the baptized who has been born a child of God now is empowerd in order to become a mature witness to the faith. Confirmation was reserved to the apostles or bishops. Philip a deacon could preach and baptized which he did. But he could not confer the Sacament of Confirmation, so Peter and John went to confer the Sacrament of Confirmation by laying on of hands.

JL: As far as seeing the kingdom see the following link from the Amplified Bible. It puts it pretty well. biblegateway.com/passage/…:3&version=AMP

DAVID: You know what ,maybe you are right .Repentance needs a context .The context we have been using has to do with the basic barrier to new life .We are talking about repentance unto salvation . I can repent of smoking cigarettes ,not going to church on Sunday , not tithing or not believing in such and such a doctrine , or not believing that Jesus died for me personally etc. All my examples might be linked to my belief system .So what comes first ,stop believing I am a church unto myself (repent) and start believing I am not to forsake the assembling of myself with believers and go to church next Sunday. Or do I just go to church next Sunday(repent) ,irregardless of reason ? Which is better? You tell me what did Peter mean when he said repent , repent from what ?

JL: I really don’t know what or where you are going with the above statement. Honestly It makes no sense to me.

REPENT: #3340, Strong’s Greek definition. to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence
of one’s past sins

BELIEVE: #4100, Strong’s Greek definition. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

Originally Posted by jlhargus Did Peter tell non-believers to repent, be baptized, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit?

DAVID: What do you tell non-believers ? That they had to ask what to do is signifying to me they quite had not gotten the good news, that his yolk was easy .Do you see any good news for the killers of Christ in verses14-36 ? They were heavy with conviction. Contrast that to verse 41,“then they gladly received his words”, after they realized , were illumined, to the way out of their predicament (of having rejected ,even crucified their Messiah).

JL: Honestly David you may know what you are trying to say with Acts2:14-36, but I have no idea. Those in Acts2:14-36 were Jews from all over the world. Peter preached the gospel to those people. After hearing the Word (Gospel) preached by Peter. At lest three thousand of those people’s hearts were pierced and BELIEVED. Why and how would an unbeliever’s hearts be pierced? Why ASK WHAT TO DO if you don’t BELIEVE? Why would a non-believer ask what to do? They could care less anyway.

What did Peter tell those who wanted to know WHAT TO DO. Repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now if you don’t want to accept they believed when their hearts were pierced. But instead think they believed when they gladly received his word fine. It changes nothing they still heard, believed, repented, were baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVED the gift of the Holy Spirit. [Acts40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOUSELVES from this untoward generation. 41 THEN THEY that gladly received his word WERE BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED unto them about three thousand souls.]

How did they save themselves form a crooked generation? By repenting, being baptized FOR remission of sins and RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. After baptism they were ADDED to the Bark of Peter the Church. Just as Noah and his family saved themselves from a crooked generation, by water entering the ark. Notice even when they gladly received his word Peter NEVER SAYS since you now BELIEVE you are born again, regenerated and received the Holy Spirit. Now you can be baptized as a confession of what God has already done.

Originally Posted by jlhargus You can’t give evidence,

DAVID: I did ,book ,chapter and verses.Totally biblical .Why do you deny you can receive the gift of the Holy ghost BEFORE water baptism ? Must you assume that baptism is ALWAYS by water ?

JL: Had you had confidence in your book, chapter and veses you would have GLADLY posted them. I’ve never denied one can’t receive the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues, prophesying or any other chrism before water baptism. The donkey in the OT wasn’t baptized or saved yet it was given the gift to speak in man’s tongue.

Originally Posted by jlhargus What did those people do to SAVE THEMSELVES? They were WATER BAPTIZED.

DAVID: They repented first.

JL: You’re using a diverion David, because you have no answer. Show me one post were I ever said they didn’t first believe and REPENT, before being baptized FOR remission of sins and RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38?
 
Nicea325 said:
It is amazing what some people say in order to make it “all” right. Protestanism is divided and history is all one needs to prove it.
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JL: I agree, most know better. They even know its wrong they just can’t allow themselves to admit it.
 
Originally Posted by jlhargus Scripture tells us we are washed in baptism,

DAVID: And by his word.

JL: Amen, [Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD]

Those WASHED with water AND THE Word are the Church. BORN AGAIN children and heirs of God, thru baptism by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5 to sanctify and cleanse them. They have believed, repented, been baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVED the gift of the HolySpirit, Acts2:38.

1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT of our God.

Titus3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to **his mercy HE SAVED US, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION **, and RENEWING OF THE Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE, we should be MADE HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.

Rv1:5 And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM our SINS in HIS own BLOOD,]

Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.
 
Quote: JL Remember Paul had a life changing encounter with Christ, yet he was told to be baptized and wash his sins away.

DAVID: Assumptions. It says Ananias layed hands on Saul that he might receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost. IMMEDIATELY he received his sight …then was baptized .When did he get filled with the Holy Ghost ? It does not say . And we have an example of people receiving Him BEFORE baptism (water). You can not use this example to show Saul did not become Paul until after water baptism.

JL: [Acts22:16 **AND NOW why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS,] Assumption, only if you ignor scripture, is Acts22:16 assumption?
[Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, **Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.] We CAN SAY, without doubt, Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIVED, had his conversion experience.

We have an example of Cornelius and household receiving the GIFT of speaking in tongues. We also have an example of a donkey receiving the GIFT of speaking in man’s tongue. Was the donkey indwelled and saved? We also have an example of the Holy Spirit falling on the Church and apostles AGAIN, similar to Pentecost. Acts4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and they spake the word of God with BOLDNESS.] It was a gift, earnestly sought and prayed for, given by the Holy Spirit, for a purpose. Anyone can pray for a gift and receive the Holy Spirit again if the Holy Spirit wills.

If you are implying Pentecost, is an example, You have to assume the apostles didn’t BELIEVE before Pentecost. According to you we receive the indwelling when we FIRST BELIEVE. That would mean the apostles didn’t even BELIEVE till Pentecost.

You ASSUME and have been telling us when one FIRST BELIEVES (has a conversion experience) he receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again. Yet we clearly see Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he had his conversion experience and first believed.
[Acts9:8 And **Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.]

[Acts9:17 And **Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND arose, and WAS BAPTIZED. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.] Ananiaas laid hands on Paul and he received his sight. Then Paul was baptized were his sins were washed away, Acts22:16, and he RECEIVED the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38.

[Acts22:12 And one **Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 AND NOW why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Did Paul receive the Holy Spirit before his sins were washed away? That would even contradict your own post #162, “For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ?”] Your second paragraph fifth line down. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8225980&postcount=162

What does Acts2:38 say, repent, be baptized FOR remission of SINS, RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. What did Paul say to BELIEVING diciples in [Acts19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, **Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, UNTO WHAT THEN WERE YE BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.] Just as Peter, Paul and Jesus knew and tells us, we receive the Holy Spirit thru BAPTISM, by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. We don’t have to ASSUME at all.

You’re contradicting your own tradition that one receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again when one FIRST BELIEVES. Paul had his CONVERSION EXPIRENCE and believed three days before Ananias even came to him. According to your tradition Paul should have received the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIEVED, when he had his conversion EXPIRENCE, three days before. Not when Ananias laid hands on him to RESTORE Paul’s sight. It seems to me you change your theology to fit your purpose and situation.

Yes IMMEDIATELY he received his sight THEN arose to be baptized to remit and wash away his sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Being BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5 and as Peter tells us in Acts2:38 repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
Originally Posted by jlhargus Mk16:16 whoever believes AND IS baptized WILL BE SAVED, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.]

DAVID: Again, notice what it takes to be condemned , "believe not’. You can totally skip baptism (water)** if you rested on this scripture alone.**You are not condemned if you are not “baptized”.

JL: It would depend on why you were NOT baptized. Notice what Jesus said, Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER into the kingdom of God.

You can have faith that moves mountains and still be condemned. [1Cor13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and **Though I HAVE ALL FAITH, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, IT PROFITETH ME NOTHING.] As much as you try you can’t rest on ONE, cafeteria style, selection of scripture alone anymore than you can rest on FAITH ALONE, which is dead faith.

Originally Posted by jlhargus Also post one scripture saying, one is regenerated when they BELIEVE?

DAVID: John 5:24- “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life…is passed from death unto life”.

JL: Assumtion, this is a perfect example of your trying to rest on ONE SCRIPTURE ALONE. We know scripture NEVER contradicts scripture. It’s only an incorrect interpretation of a particular scripture that contradicts scripture.

Resting on this one, cafeteria style selection of scripture, alone. We need not REPENT, be baptized in the name of the Lord TO REMIT AND WASH AWAY OUR SINS, and RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. With your interpretation scripture would be in error not only in Acts2:38, Acts16:22, Jn3:5, and Jms2:26 but also other scripture. Again with your interpretation and cafeteria style of selection we need not love our neighbor, feed the hungry clothe the naked, or take up our cross daily etc… All we need is FAITH ALONE, which is dead faith and contradicts, [Jms2:26 **For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.] How does scripture tell us we are washed?

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]

[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] How does scripture tell us we are REGENERATED?

[TITUS 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.]

Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

David: …Furthermore we must stop cafeteria style selection of scripture to the avoidance of others .I believe you know very well of a similar instance where a different baptism had to be performed AFTER being baptized in Jesus’s name.It was mentioned earlier and throws much baptismal dogma out the window.It is like the wind.It may come from the north or south or…,but when it comes ,you know it.

JL: Exactly, we must not use cafeteria style selection of scripture to the avoidance of others. Your above post of Jn5:24 is a perfect example of cafeteria selection of scripture to the avoidance of others. I notice you didn’t POST that scripture you claim throws much baptismal dogma out the window. That would have been the FIRST THING I would have posted.

Quote: JL How does scripture tell us we become a child of God and are justified?

DAVID: By faith.

JL: Well YOU are half right. But how does SCRIPTURE tell us we become children of God? [Gal3:26 **For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.]

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.] Just as Christ tells us in Jn3:5 EXCEPT born OF water (WASHED) AND OF the Spirit.

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD]
 
What must we do to be saved? How do we receive remission of sins ? How do we receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Ghost?

[Acts 2:38 Then **Peter said unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the HOLY GHOST.]

What must we do to be saved if we believe?

[MK16:16 He that **BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

What do we do after we believe? What is that, born of God power, he gives us to become children of God?

[Jn 1:12 But **as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD.]

Does water baptism save? How are we added to the Body of Christ the Church?

[1Pt3:20 … **eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 The LIKE FIGURE whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.]

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD]

Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word WERE BAPTIZED: and the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.

How do we enter the kingdom of God?

[Jn3:5 **Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.]

**How do we become children of God? How do we put on Christ? **

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

**How is our conscience purged? **

Hb9:14 How much more shall the BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, PURGE YOUR CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?]

**How do we have our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience? **

[Hb10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our **HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our bodies WASHED WITH PURE WATER.]

**How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? **

[Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us **and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD 6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

**How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? **

[Titus 3:5 **NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

**What is this washing, in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of our God, that sanctifies and justifies us? **

1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE Spirit of our God.

How are our sins washed away?

[Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

**How are we joined to the ONE body of Christ and drink of one Spirit? **

[1Cor 12:13 **BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT]

**How are we joined to Christ? How do we die with Christ? ** How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? How are we united to Christ? How is our old sinful self CRUCIFIED with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? How shall we live with Him? How do we put new wine into new skins?

[Rms 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were **BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION: 6 Knowing this, that OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED, that HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now IF WE BE DEAD WITH CHRIST, we believe that WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM:

**How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? What is the circumcision of Christ? How are we buried with him? How are we risen with him? **

[Col2:10 And **YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST 12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are RISEN WITH HIM through the Faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.]
 
Finally found the book"Notre Dame de Paris" by Richard Winston. French archaeologists discovered how very common it was to build two separate buildings/cathedrals during the Dark Ages. The author says Christianity was a mystery religion .Many converts postponed baptism .The thinking was that baptism washed away sins, and a “prudent believer postponed it throughout his life…like Constantine, many were baptized on their deathbed, where there was little likelihood they could commit new sins.” These were called catechumen,or one under instruction. He goes on to say liturgy reflected the division also ,preserved in Eastern orthodoxy (one for catechumens and one for the baptized). Before the Consecration , the cathechumens departed, and the “initiates” would then have the secret Creed recited and the communion would be distributed. “The architecture of churches reflected this division”, so that catechumens could depart after first part of service,and not disturb the rest. As the number of catechumens increased, it necessitated the building of two churches ,one for catechumens and for the baptized. “Such double cathedrals have been identified throughout France and northern Italy”. So Paris had St Stephen"s cathedral and the other Notre Dame cathedral(original destroyed by Vikings in 9th century.),“With the rise of the practice of infant baptism and conversion of entire peoples, the distinction between catechumens and baptized had fallen into oblivion” ,and the need for two separate churches.
 
jlhargus said:
[Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, **Repent
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; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.]

[Acts9:17 And **Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND arose, and WAS BAPTIZED. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.] Ananiaas laid hands on Paul and he received his sight. Then Paul was baptized were his sins were washed away, Acts22:16, and he RECEIVED the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38.

[Acts22:12 And one **Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 AND NOW why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Did Paul receive the Holy Spirit before his sins were washed away? That would even contradict your own post #162, “For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ?”] Your second paragraph fifth line down. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8225980&postcount=162

What does Acts2:38 say, repent, be baptized FOR remission of SINS, RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. What did Paul say to BELIEVING diciples in [Acts19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, **Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, UNTO WHAT THEN WERE YE BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.] Just as Peter, Paul and Jesus knew and tells us, we receive the Holy Spirit thru BAPTISM, by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. We don’t have to ASSUME at all.

You’re contradicting your own tradition that one receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again when one FIRST BELIEVES. Paul had his CONVERSION EXPIRENCE and believed three days before Ananias even came to him. According to your tradition Paul should have received the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIEVED, when he had his conversion EXPIRENCE, three days before. Not when Ananias laid hands on him to RESTORE Paul’s sight. It seems to me you change your theology to fit your purpose and situation.

Yes IMMEDIATELY he received his sight THEN arose to be baptized to remit and wash away his sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Being BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5 and as Peter tells us in Acts2:38 repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Actually scripture shows this happened differently at times .One can NOT be too dogmatic based on Acts ,except perhaps not to be dogmatic. If dogma arises ,it should not contradict all the different scenarios. I don’t think I contradict myself. I stick to the idea that when one believes ,it usually means unto salvation in Acts, and you can not believe unless aided by the Holy Spirit in regeneration .The old man can not believe unto righteousness.
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