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david_ruiz
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david_ruiz
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And Paul said, "I am glad I baptized none of you . I am called to preach the gospel .Salvation does NOT come in a rite , or a sacrament , or even a sinners prayer (though it can in this). Jesus is real . Jesus is alive .The Holy Spirit is indeed present. Jesus takes the blinders off and blows on us new life. That is a baptism. He did say the Holy Spirit shall baptize you …Because of sin, in the OT we had rites and ceremonies and priests and sacrifices and temples and a VEIL between God and us .The perfect sacrifice has been given. The veil torn in two, and we can boldly enter the Holy of Holies , for we are all priests, and God teaches us , and we teach each other, as one neighbor to another. Faith cometh by hearing , and that by the word of God. It is one on one with this wind, the Holy Spirit. He knocks at the door, and by His leading we open up to Him .This is the miracle of new life, as He, the eternal God , the creator of the universe, sups with us, in this new heart… This birth can take place anywhere . In your car, at a street corner, in your office or in your bedroom, even where saints are gathered together. It is indeed like child birth .When the baby comes, he/she comes .He/she does not say wait till I get to the hospital ,or wait till morning. The baby comes. It is quite irrelevant what awaits the child outside the womb .Once out, once born, you may clean it, feed it, tend to any needs, but it is already born, alive . Unlike a newborn, this new birth comes with a certain level of maturity, somewhat like Adam’s first day. It is quite conscious and aware, and able to articulate, that indeed, all things are new. ALL THIS WITHOUT BAPTISM OF WATER OR ANY RELIGIOUS RITE . Does this new life have sin , that it needs remission of ? It was just born , and is perfect in faith before the father . To say it is covered in sin is to say it is of death, when it is not. The old man has been crucified when the door was opened to let the Lord in, for the old man would never have let the Holy One in… Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and testifies of this new life, sealing it . So water baptism is an outward sign of this this new life…A lot of rambling , with scriptural backing if you so desire . Bottom line is, I was born again, believed He died for my sins and forgave them, and gave me, promised me, eternal life ,and gave me the ability even the testimony itself of this, to confess it to the sealing of my fate . ALL before water baptism …The Christian Church has had to fight off the sewing up of the torn veil , saying entrance is only by doing such and such , just like the old times (OT), to Satan’s delight… I have not even mentioned the other evidence of this simple gospel : the failure of sacraments and baptisms and circumcision, for many souls .That is, they were not effectual, they did not regenerate.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Do you believe in marriage?Salvation does NOT come in a rite , or a sacrament , or even a sinners prayer (though it can in this). … So water baptism is an outward sign of this this new life…
linked post:
So either you ditch marriage, or admit that at least one ritual that modifies the state of the soul exists, and that the effect of this ritual is to TAKE AWAY SIN (i.e., the sin of fornication). And as for Baptism:Thus there must be an action, a RITUAL, that changes the couple into husband and wife and that ritual must be administered by someone with AUTHORITY. Because that ritual modifies the standing of the couple before God–something once a sin in His eyes now is blessed–it constitutes a sacrament and is one of the 7 Catholic Sacraments.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]
So did the Apostles. Read James chapter 5. And oh, by the way, “saved” Christians can sin too (Hebrews 10:26-29).Because of sin, in the OT we had rites and ceremonies and priests and sacrifices
Yes, there is a priesthood of all believers, but that does not mean that everyone is an apostle or has the authority of an apostle. Again, see James chapter 5. There would be no need to “call the elders” to anoint the sick if everyone was an elder. There would be no need for Titus to appoint elders (Titus 1:5) if everyone was an elder. There would be no need to be cautious about laying on hands (1 Timothy 5:22) if everyone could receive the laying on of hands. For that matter, there would need to appoint Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:25-26) if everyone was an apostle.and temples and a VEIL between God and us .The perfect sacrifice has been given. The veil torn in two, and we can boldly enter the Holy of Holies , for we are all priests,
The term “priest” in the New Testament simply means a biblical elder. “Elder” in greek is “presbuteros” from which comes the English words “presbyter” and “priest.”
Since even the Apostles realized that there would be false teachings (2 Pet. 2:1), Jesus instructed that all of these teachings be subjected to the authority of the Church (Mt. 18:17). The Church has elders. Is your pastor one of them? Are you?and God teaches us , and we teach each other, as one neighbor to another.
Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is not simultaneously telling Church X that abortion is murder and Church Y that it is okay; or that Church A may baptize infants and Church B may not; or that Church 1 may “marry” homosexuals and Church 2 may not. Change of doctrine indicates a failure to submit to the Holy Spirit and every Protestant church has changed its doctrines. Look how many wars the Protestants started, against both Catholics and each other, for the sake of changing doctrine.Faith cometh by hearing , and that by the word of God. It is one on one with this wind, the Holy Spirit.
Speaking of which… Can a baby, a young child, or a mentally infirm person do any of these things? No. Is a baby born with original sin and therefore deserving of hell? The Bible says yes (Ps. 51:5; Rom. 3:23). If you are correct then all miscarriages, all children, and all invalids would be unsaved because they aren’t “conscious and aware” or “mature” enough to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Well, that doesn’t sound right to me.This birth can take place anywhere . … It is indeed like child birth .When the baby comes, he/she comes .He/she does not say wait till I get to the hospital ,or wait till morning. The baby comes. It is quite irrelevant what awaits the child outside the womb … Unlike a newborn, this new birth comes with a certain level of maturity, somewhat like Adam’s first day. It is quite conscious and aware, and able to articulate, that indeed, all things are new. ALL THIS WITHOUT BAPTISM OF WATER OR ANY RELIGIOUS RITE .
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 10:14[/BIBLEDRB]
Your answer will probably be “oh, but babies and children are below the age of reason.” You believe in “sola scriptura,” so show me where the Bible says that there is an age of reason and that everyone below it is saved even though they haven’t had their original sin remitted.
Of course, it isn’t there. That’s one of many traditions of men held by all “sola scriptura” advocates.
Actually, entrance is only by grace. Grace is NOT, I repeat NOT, the product of ANY human action. Do you realize that “accepting Jesus” is a human action? Whether that acceptance is intellectual, or manifested in a “sinner’s prayer” or an altar call, it is still a human action predicated on the action of human faculties. All you are claiming is that those actions are “better than” baptism, not that the people making those actions are saved monergistically or on account of not making any action. Faith without grace cannot save (witness the crowd saying “Lord, Lord” who are not saved).The Christian Church has had to fight off the sewing up of the torn veil , saying entrance is only by doing such and such…
Baptism is an unmerited gift. Babies can be baptized precisely because they do NOT have to DO anything, not even “accept Jesus,” in order to be saved. The Holy Spirit, working through them and their parents and godparents, takes care of the rest. That is the correct understanding of salvation. It is a free, unmerited gift for everyone, from babies to the most vile serial killer, because Jesus died for everyone. Of course, the gift comes with the requirement that it be used; Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Tim. 5:8 and James 2:26 spell out the consequences for those who fail to live out their salvation, that is, loss of the gift.
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normbetland
Guest
So a baby has salvation, then somewhere along the ways loses his salvation, and then even further along the way can regain it? I thought that most Protestants believed in security of salvation.Babies that die go to heaven. In the Old Testament King David know that he would see his baby boy that died in heaven when he died.
drywall
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jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus
[Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.] We CAN SAY, without doubt, Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIVED, had his conversion experience.
We have an example of Cornelius and household receiving the GIFT of speaking in tongues. We also have an example of a donkey receiving the GIFT of speaking in man’s tongue. Was the donkey indwelled and saved? We also have an example of the Holy Spirit falling on the Church and apostles AGAIN, similar to Pentecost. Acts4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and they spake the word of God with BOLDNESS.] It was a gift, earnestly sought and prayed for, given by the Holy Spirit, for a purpose. Anyone can pray for a gift and receive the Holy Spirit again if the Holy Spirit wills.
If you are implying Pentecost, is an example, You have to assume the apostles didn’t BELIEVE before Pentecost. According to you we receive the indwelling when we FIRST BELIEVE. That would mean the apostles didn’t even BELIEVE till Pentecost.
You ASSUME and have been telling us when one FIRST BELIEVES (has a conversion experience) he receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again. Yet we clearly see Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he had his conversion experience and first believed.
[Acts9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.]
[Acts9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND arose, and WAS BAPTIZED. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.] Ananiaas laid hands on Paul and he received his sight. Then Paul was baptized were his sins were washed away, Acts22:16, and he RECEIVED the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38.
[Acts22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 AND NOW why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Did Paul receive the Holy Spirit before his sins were washed away? That would even contradict your own post #162, “For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ?”] Your second paragraph fifth line down. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=162
What does Acts2:38 say, repent, be baptized FOR remission of SINS, RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. What did Paul say to BELIEVING diciples in [Acts19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, UNTO WHAT THEN WERE YE BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.] Just as Peter, Paul and Jesus knew and tells us, we receive the Holy Spirit thru BAPTISM, by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. We don’t have to ASSUME at all.
You’re contradicting your own tradition that one receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again when one FIRST BELIEVES. Paul had his CONVERSION EXPIRENCE and believed three days before Ananias even came to him. According to your tradition Paul should have received the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIEVED, when he had his conversion EXPIRENCE, three days before. Not when Ananias laid hands on him to RESTORE Paul’s sight. It seems to me you change your theology to fit your purpose and situation.
Yes IMMEDIATELY he received his sight THEN arose to be baptized to remit and wash away his sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Being BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5 and as Peter tells us in Acts2:38 repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.] We CAN SAY, without doubt, Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIVED, had his conversion experience.
We have an example of Cornelius and household receiving the GIFT of speaking in tongues. We also have an example of a donkey receiving the GIFT of speaking in man’s tongue. Was the donkey indwelled and saved? We also have an example of the Holy Spirit falling on the Church and apostles AGAIN, similar to Pentecost. Acts4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and they spake the word of God with BOLDNESS.] It was a gift, earnestly sought and prayed for, given by the Holy Spirit, for a purpose. Anyone can pray for a gift and receive the Holy Spirit again if the Holy Spirit wills.
If you are implying Pentecost, is an example, You have to assume the apostles didn’t BELIEVE before Pentecost. According to you we receive the indwelling when we FIRST BELIEVE. That would mean the apostles didn’t even BELIEVE till Pentecost.
You ASSUME and have been telling us when one FIRST BELIEVES (has a conversion experience) he receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again. Yet we clearly see Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he had his conversion experience and first believed.
[Acts9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.]
[Acts9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND arose, and WAS BAPTIZED. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.] Ananiaas laid hands on Paul and he received his sight. Then Paul was baptized were his sins were washed away, Acts22:16, and he RECEIVED the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38.
[Acts22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 AND NOW why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Did Paul receive the Holy Spirit before his sins were washed away? That would even contradict your own post #162, “For the remission of sins ? Can the Holy Spirit enter in where sin has not been atoned ?”] Your second paragraph fifth line down. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=162
What does Acts2:38 say, repent, be baptized FOR remission of SINS, RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. What did Paul say to BELIEVING diciples in [Acts19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, UNTO WHAT THEN WERE YE BAPTIZED? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.] Just as Peter, Paul and Jesus knew and tells us, we receive the Holy Spirit thru BAPTISM, by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. We don’t have to ASSUME at all.
You’re contradicting your own tradition that one receives the Holy Spirit, is regenerated and born again when one FIRST BELIEVES. Paul had his CONVERSION EXPIRENCE and believed three days before Ananias even came to him. According to your tradition Paul should have received the Holy Spirit when he FIRST BELIEVED, when he had his conversion EXPIRENCE, three days before. Not when Ananias laid hands on him to RESTORE Paul’s sight. It seems to me you change your theology to fit your purpose and situation.
Yes IMMEDIATELY he received his sight THEN arose to be baptized to remit and wash away his sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Being BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5 and as Peter tells us in Acts2:38 repent, be baptized FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
JL: Yet you post no scriptural evidence for your statement. That would be the first thing I would have posted. What you are really admitting is you have no scriptural evidence and can’t answer.Actually scripture shows this happened differently at times .One can NOT be too dogmatic based on Acts ,except perhaps not to be dogmatic. If dogma arises ,it should not contradict all the different scenarios. I don’t think I contradict myself. I stick to the idea that when one believes ,it usually means unto salvation in Acts, and you can not believe unless aided by the Holy Spirit in regeneration .The old man can not believe unto righteousness.
J
jlhargus
Guest
Quote: JL: Wow, how easily you JUDGE your fellowman.
DAVID; And are you falsely pious ? Just down below you quote scripture that backs me up . Jesus said a similar thing.I only state a fact ,that Jesus also stated .Judging would be when I start telling you my neighbor is going to hell or so-so is going to heaven etc etc .I made a general statemnet ,not reflecting on any specific individual ,hence not judging.
JL: I notice you didn’t post the scripture, you claim, backs you up, Why? I also notice you didn’t post evidence, why or, how I am being falsely pious. Again those would have been the first things I would have posted. Unless of course there is no evidence.
Quote JL: So all who just call on the name of the Lord or SAY Lord, Lord will be saved? Doesn’t that contradict scripture? [Mt7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
DVAID: Nope,and you know it .It says “not everyone” .That means "some "will be saved by calling out. Jesus was only qualifying the "calling out’ , not contradicting the earlier decree.Your method does not work every time either.
JL: Nope, not those who call out ONLY. But he who calls out AND DOES God’s WILL, will be saved. [Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT **DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.] You were saying baptism was a WORK. I was pointing out to you, with YOUR own definition of WORKS. That CALLING OUT would be a WORK. Therefore those you say are saved by calling out would be saved by a WORK, a religious act, which you condemned. Using your definition of WORKS. You post; my method does not work every time either. What method of mine are you speaking of?
Quote JL: Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
DAVID: Again you apply your paradigm to this scripture of calling out .You are looking for effectual things to do . Calling out does not save you in your paradigm .Jesus saves you .You are not saved when you call out , just like you are not saved out of trouble by calling 911.You are out of trouble when the cops come and chase away the bad guy. You are not saved by "calling out "per say ,but by His response to your calling out.
JL: Nope, NOT my paradigm David, I was responding to YOUR paradigm. Notice my quote above. Nice try at switch and bait David. You’re getting quite good at that. The following is YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Followed by my original answer.
Original quote DAVID: First ,I am afraid many people that have done this are like many Catholics -not saved or born again ,in danger of hell. Now for both denominations , he who calls out to the Lord shall be saved . Is calling out a work ? Is asking, begging a work ?
Original quote JL: Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
The following is the original context along with YOUR definition of works;
Original quote David: If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act .
Original quote David: First ,I am afraid many people that have done this are like many Catholics -not saved or born again ,in danger of hell. Now for both denominations , he who calls out to the Lord shall be saved . Is calling out a work ? Is asking, begging a work ? Jesus saves .Jesus saves. Not my church or your church or an altar call or a rite.We all know too many people that are religious but dead .Yet we know many people that are religious and really saved , really born again , really seem to love Jesus. So yes I am paranoid of works , just works. We should all hate dead works.
Original quote JL: Wow, how easily you JUDGE your fellowman. When you pray do you also thank God that you are not like most men? [Lk18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.] If all you see is the sin, you don’t know if they latter repented or not. By the way there is no such thing as ONE Protestant denomination, but thousands, so your posting above, “both denominations”, is way off.
So all who just call on the name of the Lord or SAY Lord, Lord will be saved? Doesn’t that contradict scripture? [Mt7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; **BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.] Well using your definition for works, “If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act.”] Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
DAVID; And are you falsely pious ? Just down below you quote scripture that backs me up . Jesus said a similar thing.I only state a fact ,that Jesus also stated .Judging would be when I start telling you my neighbor is going to hell or so-so is going to heaven etc etc .I made a general statemnet ,not reflecting on any specific individual ,hence not judging.
JL: I notice you didn’t post the scripture, you claim, backs you up, Why? I also notice you didn’t post evidence, why or, how I am being falsely pious. Again those would have been the first things I would have posted. Unless of course there is no evidence.
Quote JL: So all who just call on the name of the Lord or SAY Lord, Lord will be saved? Doesn’t that contradict scripture? [Mt7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
DVAID: Nope,and you know it .It says “not everyone” .That means "some "will be saved by calling out. Jesus was only qualifying the "calling out’ , not contradicting the earlier decree.Your method does not work every time either.
JL: Nope, not those who call out ONLY. But he who calls out AND DOES God’s WILL, will be saved. [Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT **DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.] You were saying baptism was a WORK. I was pointing out to you, with YOUR own definition of WORKS. That CALLING OUT would be a WORK. Therefore those you say are saved by calling out would be saved by a WORK, a religious act, which you condemned. Using your definition of WORKS. You post; my method does not work every time either. What method of mine are you speaking of?
Quote JL: Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
DAVID: Again you apply your paradigm to this scripture of calling out .You are looking for effectual things to do . Calling out does not save you in your paradigm .Jesus saves you .You are not saved when you call out , just like you are not saved out of trouble by calling 911.You are out of trouble when the cops come and chase away the bad guy. You are not saved by "calling out "per say ,but by His response to your calling out.
JL: Nope, NOT my paradigm David, I was responding to YOUR paradigm. Notice my quote above. Nice try at switch and bait David. You’re getting quite good at that. The following is YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Followed by my original answer.
Original quote DAVID: First ,I am afraid many people that have done this are like many Catholics -not saved or born again ,in danger of hell. Now for both denominations , he who calls out to the Lord shall be saved . Is calling out a work ? Is asking, begging a work ?
Original quote JL: Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
The following is the original context along with YOUR definition of works;
Original quote David: If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act .
Original quote David: First ,I am afraid many people that have done this are like many Catholics -not saved or born again ,in danger of hell. Now for both denominations , he who calls out to the Lord shall be saved . Is calling out a work ? Is asking, begging a work ? Jesus saves .Jesus saves. Not my church or your church or an altar call or a rite.We all know too many people that are religious but dead .Yet we know many people that are religious and really saved , really born again , really seem to love Jesus. So yes I am paranoid of works , just works. We should all hate dead works.
Original quote JL: Wow, how easily you JUDGE your fellowman. When you pray do you also thank God that you are not like most men? [Lk18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.] If all you see is the sin, you don’t know if they latter repented or not. By the way there is no such thing as ONE Protestant denomination, but thousands, so your posting above, “both denominations”, is way off.
So all who just call on the name of the Lord or SAY Lord, Lord will be saved? Doesn’t that contradict scripture? [Mt7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; **BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.] Well using your definition for works, “If you must do something -be baptized ,then you have done something ,a religious act.”] Then yes calling out is a work by your own words. You seem to change your theology when it suits your purpose. One is DOING, when calling out, aren’t they? Isn’t calling out to God a religious act?
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Scripture disagrees with you David. I notice as USUAL you haven’t posted, nor can you post, SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE to support your statements. Otherwise you would have posted that evidence instead of posting a statement, which is a tradition of men. The following are SOME scriptural evidence, for the Sacrament of Baptism. Just a few scriptures out of many I have and could post.And Paul said, "I am glad I baptized none of you . I am called to preach the gospel .Salvation does NOT come in a rite , or a sacrament , or even a sinners prayer (though it can in this). Jesus is real . Jesus is alive .The Holy Spirit is indeed present. Jesus takes the blinders off and blows on us new life. That is a baptism. He did say the Holy Spirit shall baptize you …Because of sin, in the OT we had rites and ceremonies and priests and sacrifices and temples and a VEIL between God and us .The perfect sacrifice has been given. The veil torn in two, and we can boldly enter the Holy of Holies , for we are all priests, and God teaches us , and we teach each other, as one neighbor to another. Faith cometh by hearing , and that by the word of God. It is one on one with this wind, the Holy Spirit. He knocks at the door, and by His leading we open up to Him .This is the miracle of new life, as He, the eternal God , the creator of the universe, sups with us, in this new heart… This birth can take place anywhere . In your car, at a street corner, in your office or in your bedroom, even where saints are gathered together. It is indeed like child birth .When the baby comes, he/she comes .He/she does not say wait till I get to the hospital ,or wait till morning. The baby comes. It is quite irrelevant what awaits the child outside the womb .Once out, once born, you may clean it, feed it, tend to any needs, but it is already born, alive . Unlike a newborn, this new birth comes with a certain level of maturity, somewhat like Adam’s first day. It is quite conscious and aware, and able to articulate, that indeed, all things are new. ALL THIS WITHOUT BAPTISM OF WATER OR ANY RELIGIOUS RITE . Does this new life have sin , that it needs remission of ? It was just born , and is perfect in faith before the father . To say it is covered in sin is to say it is of death, when it is not. The old man has been crucified when the door was opened to let the Lord in, for the old man would never have let the Holy One in… Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and testifies of this new life, sealing it . So water baptism is an outward sign of this this new life…A lot of rambling , with scriptural backing if you so desire . Bottom line is, I was born again, believed He died for my sins and forgave them, and gave me, promised me, eternal life ,and gave me the ability even the testimony itself of this, to confess it to the sealing of my fate . ALL before water baptism …The Christian Church has had to fight off the sewing up of the torn veil , saying entrance is only by doing such and such , just like the old times (OT), to Satan’s delight… I have not even mentioned the other evidence of this simple gospel : the failure of sacraments and baptisms and circumcision, for many souls .That is, they were not effectual, they did not regenerate.
Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, HOW can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 JESUS ANSWERED, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Baptism is a sealing and much, much, more than a confession or an outward ineffectual sign. You contradict scripture when you say baptism is NOT EFFECTUAL. Acts2:38 says repent, be baptized, FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]
[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] How does scripture tell us we are REGENERATED?
[TITUS 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.
[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.]
Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
MontChevalier,Bonjour,
I had a conversation with my friend the other day about the differences in our faiths. And one thing I noted about her faith was that her church didn’t receive baptism as babies. She rationalized it, saying,“Babies just don’t understand the symbolism of baptism.”
So, why do Catholics do it to babies?
This one led me to seek out others more experienced in these matters than I.
Au revoir,
-MontChevalier
Catholics have answered regarding why infants are baptized. Infants are baptized in the Anglican Church as well.
As for the Baptist issue, Southern Baptists believe Baptism is purely symbolic, takes place after salvation, and is an act of obedience. There are conditions that must be met prior to baptism, as noted by the International Mission Board (IMB):
Position Paper Concerning the IMB Guideline on Baptism
. . . .Four key parameters derived from Scripture and consistent with historic Baptist ecclesiology inform and shape the IMB policy. First, that the only biblical mode for baptism is immersion. Second, that the only proper candidate for immersion is a regenerate believer in Jesus Christ. Third, that the act is purely symbolic and distinct from salvation itself and has no saving merit. Fourth, that baptism is a church ordinance and therefore the only proper administrator of it is a local New Testament church that holds to a proper view of salvation. . . . .
"a. Baptism is a church ordinance.
**Baptism must take place in a church that practices believer’s baptism by immersion alone, does not view baptism as sacramental or regenerative, and a church that embraces the doctrine of the security of the believer.
**
b. A candidate who has not been baptized in a Southern Baptist church or in a church which meets the standards listed above is expected to request baptism in his/her Southern Baptist church as a testimony of identification with the system of belief held by Southern Baptist churches."
imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=3840
Ironically, none of these requirements for Baptism can be found in Holy Scripture, even though Southern Baptists claim to hold Scripture as the sole authority.
Peace,
Anna
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