The Battle for the Soul: Memory vs. the Brain

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One of the concepts I find myself poring over the most is the role of the soul. With our ever increasing scientific knowledge, many are tempted to yield the whole of the human being to empirical science and purely biological process. One particular area I’m interested in is memory. I think many nowadays assume, given the incredible leaps in our biological understanding, particularly neuroscience, that memory is stored in the brain. This seems not to be the case. Now, this particular researcher approaches the topic from a Jungian, “collective unconscious” philosophy, but the implications could very easily, I think, be neatly transferred to a theistic one. Read:
After decades of investigation, scientists are still unable to explain why no part of the brain seems responsible for storing memories.
Most people assume that our memories must exist somewhere inside our heads. But try as they might, medical investigators have been unable to determine which cerebral region actually stores what we remember. Could it be that our memories actually dwell in a space outside our physical structure?.. (read more)
Could these “morphogenic fields,” should his theory be correct, be a link between the spiritual and material realms? Discuss!
 
Memory is only one aspect of the inadequacy of the mind=brain hypothesis but it is significant that it cannot be located. Like reasoning it has a abstract aspect that reveals the absurdity of materialism. Destroying rat’s brains bit by bit is symptomatic of the fanatical futility of some neuroscientists’ ambition to reduce all mental activity to electrical impulses and achieve international fame for doing so. What they succeed in doing is revealing ignorance of the fact that they are undermining the rational basis of all their conclusions! If their thoughts have physical causes they are worthless as a guide to the nature of reality. **How can physical causes possibly explain themselves? **:confused:
 
It is a pretty big field out there and some believe the day will come when science will explain all.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111003161935.htm

Anyway, if someone wants to be believe that their thoughts, actions and reactions are nothing more than chemical secretions, then I think they’re, at this point in time, ignoring the large amount of Catholics in the room.

Peace,
Ed
 
A biologist would say the brain can store memory in two ways:
one is be increasing the number of synapse connections from one nerve to the next. This takes a few hours or days.
the other is to change the number of neurotransmitter vesicles at the synapses. When a nerve if stimulated, some vesicles are releases to the surface and their contents move across the sypnapse to stimulate the next neuron. This sounds like it would take a long time, but at the molecular level things happen very fast. However, changing the number of these vesicles to store memory would take a few minutes at least.

You watch the movie Gone With the Wind for the first time. They somebody shows you a few frames from the film. Not only do your recognize the scenes, you remember all their relationships to all parts of the story.

Think of how much information has been saved in your memory virtually instantaneously as the movie played. This cannot be the result of the physical brain alone It can’t change itself that fast. The soul must be involved.
 
A biologist would say the brain can store memory in two ways:
one is be increasing the number of synapse connections from one nerve to the next. This takes a few hours or days.
the other is to change the number of neurotransmitter vesicles at the synapses. When a nerve if stimulated, some vesicles are releases to the surface and their contents move across the sypnapse to stimulate the next neuron. This sounds like it would take a long time, but at the molecular level things happen very fast. However, changing the number of these vesicles to store memory would take a few minutes at least.

You watch the movie Gone With the Wind for the first time. They somebody shows you a few frames from the film. Not only do your recognize the scenes, you remember all their relationships to all parts of the story.

Think of how much information has been saved in your memory virtually instantaneously as the movie played. This cannot be the result of the physical brain alone It can’t change itself that fast. The soul must be involved.
yes, and not to mention, materialists also fail to explain how our brain make abstractions and generalizations.
 
yes, and not to mention, materialists also fail to explain how our brain make abstractions and generalizations.
Not to mention associations. We instantly form and understand associations between this that and the other thing even without sensory (name removed by moderator)uts. How could the brain do that?

And they there’s consciousness. Animals have conciousness, but they’re not aware of their consciousness, or of the past, or of the future.
 
Memory is only one aspect of the inadequacy of the mind=brain hypothesis but it is significant that it cannot be located. Like reasoning it has a abstract aspect that reveals the absurdity of materialism. Destroying rat’s brains bit by bit is symptomatic of the fanatical futility of some neuroscientists’ ambition to reduce all mental activity to electrical impulses and achieve international fame for doing so. What they succeed in doing is revealing ignorance of the fact that they are undermining the rational basis of all their conclusions! If their thoughts have physical causes they are worthless as a guide to the nature of reality. **How can physical causes possibly explain themselves? **:confused:
👍

Indeed. If consciousness is an illusion, then what does that make the thoughts and deductions of the materialist? The words truth and illusion are virtual antonyms.
 
One of the concepts I find myself poring over the most is the role of the soul. With our ever increasing scientific knowledge, many are tempted to yield the whole of the human being to empirical science and purely biological process. One particular area I’m interested in is memory. I think many nowadays assume, given the incredible leaps in our biological understanding, particularly neuroscience, that memory is stored in the brain. This seems not to be the case. Now, this particular researcher approaches the topic from a Jungian, “collective unconscious” philosophy, but the implications could very easily, I think, be neatly transferred to a theistic one. Read:

Could these “morphogenic fields,” should his theory be correct, be a link between the spiritual and material realms? Discuss!
PS
Excellent OP. You must realize that you’ve opened a large and wide ranging topic which would be difficult to deal with if confined to the purely biological realm. By inviting insights as to how some neurological concepts might apply to the spiritual world, you are inviting those who know nothing about either to add what passes in them for thought.

Perhaps you can appreciate the notion that the subject you’ve broached cannot be dealt with by either conventional science or conventional religious dogma. If so you may find alternative ideas interesting. Otherwise, skip the rest of this post.

Back in 1964 an electrical engineer, A.C. Scott, built a simple brain model from a linear grid of 16 transistor circuits, each designed to mimic the then-known behavior of neurons. This experiment demonstrated that digital stimulation of neurons produced a standing-wave pattern in the phase space surrounding the circuits.

Electromagnetic circuits commonly produce such patterns, but they are treated as electronic “noise” and generally avoided. The back panel of your computer will have a small print statement indicating that it meets FCC standards for noise emission. But Scott showed that the geometric pattern produced by specific stimulations of his “neuristor circuits” was a symmetrical function that carried stable information.

Of course his work was ignored by neurological researchers because they were not intelligent enough to comprehend it.

More recently (about a decade ago) a team of neurological researchers performed a mid-surgery experiment on a human brain (with permission, of course) which demonstrated that waveform information generated in one section of the brain was reproduced in another section of the brain without the benefit of intermediate neural connections! Of course this information was also ignored. (My ladyfriend’s brother, Charles Gray, was one of the researchers, else I’d not know about this. I lost track of the title, date, and journal name where their paper was published, but it could be found by someone who thought it relevant by simply getting a list of Charlie’s papers.)

This says to me that the notion of a mysterious morphogenic field is just simpleminded hogwash, like the silly Higgs field of particle physics, and phlogiston from back in the post-Newton years of confused thermodynamics research.

A simple e/m (electromagnetic) field is all that is necessary to incorporate the notion of holographic memory as well as the possibility of an empirically verifiable connection to “soul.”

Somewhat trickier is the matter of the soul/brain interface. Under the terms of current religious beliefs, which confine the “soul” to a mystical non-physical spirit realm, it is impossible to discuss such a thing. Yet, anyone with a 3-digit I.Q. ought to be able to recognize that since, by definition, anything that interacts with matter or any other component of the physical universe must also be “physical” in nature (not necessarily material), if there is a soul and if it interacts somehow with the physical human brain-body system, the soul must itself be physical.

Anyone who recognizes the obvious sense of that statement is then prepared to think about and research the nature of the soul-brain interface, antennas, tuners, modulators, attenuators and all the stuff a good telemetry engineer would know about, Of course this first requires a sensible definition of the “soul,” because the current understanding of it is too inadequate to support anything beyond childhood-level beliefs.

Furtherance of this thread requires a physics-compatible definition of soul. I’ve tried these years ago on CAF, but all my threads were sandbagged by dogmatists. No point in trying that again, because the dogmatists have not gone away. The main point of this reply is to let you know that your thinking is on the right track (IMO of course) and encourage you to pursue it as best you can. This will not be easy. Both religious and scientific establishments are against it. And thanks for the reference. I will definitely study Sheldrake— which will take some work (the Epoch article’s link to his paper did not work.) His ideas are wrong, but on the right track, and he may prove to be a helpful collaborator. Then there’s my book, which sits in the translation limbo between my HTML computer files and the printer’s PDF queue.
 
And they there’s consciousness. Animals have conciousness, but they’re not aware of their consciousness, or of the past, or of the future.
Given that the nature of consciousness requires that the conscious entity be aware that it is indeed a conscious entity, your statement is absurd. Do some research before you write any more nonsense. Animals recall past events just fine— probably better than you. They utilize their recall of past events to avoid dangers in the potential future. They are not self-aware and not conscious. Maybe you ought to buy and raise a puppy— but let it teach you.
 
atheist greylorn wrote this irrelevant junk:
Back in 1964 an electrical engineer, A.C. Scott, built a simple brain model from a linear grid of 16 transistor circuits, each designed to mimic the then-known behavior of neurons. This experiment demonstrated that digital stimulation of neurons produced a standing-wave pattern in the phase space surrounding the circuits.
Electromagnetic circuits commonly produce such patterns, but they are treated as electronic “noise” and generally avoided. The back panel of your computer will have a small print statement indicating that it meets FCC standards for noise emission. But Scott showed that the geometric pattern produced by specific stimulations of his “neuristor circuits” was a symmetrical function that carried stable information.
Of course his work was ignored by neurological researchers because they were not intelligent enough to comprehend it.
More recently (about a decade ago) a team of neurological researchers performed a mid-surgery experiment on a human brain (with permission, of course) which demonstrated that waveform information generated in one section of the brain was reproduced in another section of the brain without the benefit of intermediate neural connections! Of course this information was also ignored. (My ladyfriend’s brother, Charles Gray, was one of the researchers, else I’d not know about this. I lost track of the title, date, and journal name where their paper was published, but it could be found by someone who thought it relevant by simply getting a list of Charlie’s papers.)
This says to me that the notion of a mysterious morphogenic field is just simpleminded hogwash, like the silly Higgs field of particle physics, and phlogiston from back in the post-Newton years of confused thermodynamics research.
A simple e/m (electromagnetic) field is all that is necessary to incorporate the notion of holographic memory as well as the possibility of an empirically verifiable connection to “soul.”
He left out one tiny detail. :mad:
Electronic circuits transmit electric current by channeling electrons down wires and this will generate e/m waveforms, sure, but there’s no parallel in the brain.
The brain’s “electrical impulses” are not electrons going down a wire or down anything. They are depoliarizations of nerve cells.

A nerve’s membrane is normally polarized. There are positive ions on the outside and negative ions on the inside ( or maybe vice versa, I forget, but never mind ). When a nerve cell is stimutated at some point on its surface, these ions exchange across the membrane. This is depolarization. It spreads out from one point to the entire surface of the nerve cell.
In a few hundreds of a second, the nerve repolatized the membrane and the nerve is ready for another discharge.

This is not electrons going down a wire. In fact, its not positive or negative charges going down a nerve’s axon either. Ions are moving “vertically” in and out of the membrane surface, and then go back. There are no e/m waves being generated.

Besides that, the depolization is momentary, and there is a gap of time between repolarization/depolarization cycles during which any waveform or whatever you want to call it would disappear.

So, the comparison of the brain to electronic circuitry is illegitimate.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by empther
forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
And they there’s consciousness. Animals have conciousness, but they’re not aware of their consciousness, or of the past, or of the future.

Given that the nature of consciousness requires that the conscious entity be aware that it is indeed a conscious entity, your statement is absurd. Do some research before you write any more nonsense. Animals recall past events just fine— probably better than you. They utilize their recall of past events to avoid dangers in the potential future. They are not self-aware and not conscious. Maybe you ought to buy and raise a puppy— but let it teach you.


Animals recall past events just fine
How to you know that?

— probably better than you.
What were we talking about? I can’t remember. 😃

They utilize their recall of past events to avoid dangers in the potential future.
It’s conditiond reflex, not understood-recall.

They are not self-aware and not conscious.

They need consciousness in order for their reflexes to operate, but they don’t need self-awareness because their relexes take care of their needs.

**Maybe you ought to buy and raise a puppy— but let it teach you. **
We did buy a puppy, a short haired black lab from a professional breeder. His name if Brutus Maximus. While we taught it many tricks and behaviors, now into his sixth year with us he shows not an ounce of variation in his behavior. It’s all reflex.

Watch out, atheists! I’m here, I’m there, I’m everywhere, so beware ! :extrahappy:
 
Memory is only one aspect of the inadequacy of the mind=brain hypothesis but it is significant that it cannot be located. Like reasoning it has a abstract aspect that reveals the absurdity of materialism. Destroying rat’s brains bit by bit is symptomatic of the fanatical futility of some neuroscientists’ ambition to reduce all mental activity to electrical impulses and achieve international fame for doing so. What they succeed in doing is revealing ignorance of the fact that they are undermining the rational basis of all
The more absurd a hypothesis becomes the easier it is to cling to it without fear of being refuted! It is so remote from reality it becomes an illusion as nebulous and as negative as a nightmare!
 
Originally Posted by empther
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/Image6.gif
more humbug from atheist greylorn
:

**Please do not call me an atheist. Not ever. **


Then stop writing atheist trash like this stuff from your post #8
A simple e/m (electromagnetic) field is all that is necessary to incorporate the notion of holographic memory as well as the possibility of an empirically verifiable connection to “soul.”

Somewhat trickier is the matter of the soul/brain interface. Under the terms of current religious beliefs, which confine the “soul” to a mystical non-physical spirit realm, it is impossible to discuss such a thing. Yet, anyone with a 3-digit I.Q. ought to be able to recognize that since, by definition, anything that interacts with matter or any other component of the physical universe must also be “physical” in nature (not necessarily material), if there is a soul and if it interacts somehow with the physical human brain-body system, the soul must itself be physical.
 
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