The beast is on the loose! Are we to blame?

[CB_Catholic]

Quit obsessing over end-times, people! It’s a waste of your time (God’s time) and your life (God’s gift) and verging on an un-Christian desire to control the future.

All of these sins - every SINGLE last one of 'em - have been with us from the beginning. Read the first five books of the Bible you’ll come across all of 'em and commandments against most all of 'em too. Remember God DID destroy the people of the world in Noah’s time for their sins - clearly they were as bad as us at least!

What possible difference can it make to you or I when the world will end? Either or both of us could be dead tomorrow or next week. And no-one knows the day and hour, not even the Son - are you claiming to greater knowledge than He?

Simply,trust in God, and prepare your soul so that you are as ready as possible to meet Him, whenever that be. And yes, pray for the conversion of sinners - we all should do in any event, are we not all sinners? But in joyful hope, as we are reminded at every Mass, not fear or despair.

Amen, sister. There is nothing new under the sun. I fully recognize the state of our nation and our world, and the evil of these times, but history shows us that this is nothing new. As I have heard others say, "I looked in the back of the Book (the Bible) and we win!!! " Jesus, I trust in You.

 

[blessedstar]

Amen, sister. There is nothing new under the sun. I fully recognize the state of our nation and our world, and the evil of these times, but history shows us that this is nothing new. As I have heard others say, "I looked in the back of the Book (the Bible) and we win!!! " Jesus, I trust in You.

It is not a matter of obsessing over the end times, it is a legitimate study called Eschatology and the Majesterium does not deter the faithful from considering these thinsg, nor meditating upon Sacred Scripture that contains these things. It is however unhealthy spiritually to desire the end as a seeking after punishment for certain souls or to study it to the exclusion of the rest of the faith. Nor is it against the faith to apply the Gospel to the times one is living in noting the signs of the times.

There are particular evils in this age that have not happened before such as legal abortion, euthanasia, the desire to create hybrid human/animals etc. The sin is always the same, it is always murder, it is always a sin against God, but men are finding new and different ways to commit these sins.

This link below explains the study of Eschatology:

newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm

 

[LilyM]

It is not a matter of obsessing over the end times, it is a legitimate study called Eschatology and the Majesterium does not deter the faithful from considering these thinsg, nor meditating upon Sacred Scripture that contains these things. It is however unhealthy spiritually to desire the end as a seeking after punishment for certain souls or to study it to the exclusion of the rest of the faith. Nor is it against the faith to apply the Gospel to the times one is living in noting the signs of the times.

There are particular evils in this age that have not happened before such as legal abortion, euthanasia, the desire to create hybrid human/animals etc. The sin is always the same, it is always murder, it is always a sin against God, but men are finding new and different ways to commit these sins.

This link below explains the study of Eschatology:

newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm

New ways to commit the same old same old same old sins - it’s about as significant as saying that we murder each other with guns now whereas in Jesus’ time those weren’t an option. I have to agree, there’s still nothing significantly new under the sun.

And abortion WAS legal for a long time, though not always, in ancient Greece and Rome, probably in other places too. Euthanasia may not have been practiced on a wide scale but you seen the average life expectancies, even a century ago? It wasn’t needed. People usually didn’t suffer real long lingering deaths.

 

[blessedstar]

New ways to commit the same old same old same old sins - it’s about as significant as saying that we murder each other with guns now whereas in Jesus’ time those weren’t an option. I have to agree, there’s still nothing significantly new under the sun.

And abortion WAS legal for a long time, though not always, in ancient Greece and Rome, probably in other places too. Euthanasia may not have been practiced on a wide scale but you seen the average life expectancies, even a century ago? It wasn’t needed. People usually didn’t suffer real long lingering deaths.

I believe that God is outraged at these new ways to commit sins because the growth in evil is not only in committing the sin but pushing the barriers against natural law and the law of the Love of God. Furthermore it is not simply the nature of the sin it is the increase in the frequency the sins are committed and even legalised, condoned, accepted and promoted within society.

Everything I have stated is within Catholic Teaching otherwise I wouldn’t have stated it.

I will expound that it is not wrong to study the end times, it is a legitimate study ‘Eschatology’ and if studied as I outlined previously it is not an obesession.

The original poster raised a legitimate topic and he/she should be able to discuss this topic without being indirectly called obsessive. There is merit in considering this topic as all things within Sacred Scripture are of merit to study, meditate upon and consider prayerfully.

If this is a topic that you personally do not like Lily, then don’t involve yourself in it if it gives you cause to feel uncomfortable.

 

[LilyM]

I believe that God is outraged at these new ways to commit sins because the growth in evil is not only in committing the sin but pushing the barriers against natural law and the law of the Love of God. Furthermore it is not simply the nature of the sin it is the increase in the frequency the sins are committed and even legalised, condoned, accepted and promoted within society.

How could God POSSIBLY be more outraged now than He was at the time of Noah when he destroyed all the nations for their sins? He can’t be, and He isn’t. As I said, abortion has been legal, as well as condoned, accepted and promoted, in numerous times and places and has certainly been widely practiced regardless.

Everything I have stated is within Catholic Teaching otherwise I wouldn’t have stated it.

Within Catholic teaching sure, just as spending your days digging holes and filling them in again is, but hardly very useful.

I will expound that it is not wrong to study the end times, it is a legitimate study ‘Eschatology’ and if studied as I outlined previously it is not an obesession.

Apologies for calling it an obsession. It becomes one if you neglect your duty to be useful in the here-and-now and live a good life in the here-and-now to pursue it. And many seem to only be interested in end-times out of some unhealthy interest in evil (hence the ‘the world’s never been worse’ mantra, which is absolutely wrong). Or in seeing God punish sinners or else in the hopes that if they predict it just right they can wait to lead good lives, repent etc.

Just like going to Mass is a good thing, attending a dozen of 'em in a day when you’re supposed to be working to put food in your children’s mouths isn’t.

The original poster raised a legitimate topic and he/she should be able to discuss this topic without being indirectly called obsessive.

The OP was indulging in a spray of what I referred to above - ‘the world’s never been worse’ doom-and-gloom mantra. Totally false, totally unproductive.

 

[blessedstar]

So to summise your points.

1 God is not as or more outraged at the seriousness of sin in these times.
2 These things have always gone on and at the same scale and are not escalating
3 People who study Eschatology are obsessed
4If you post mentioning the present times you are simply ‘spraying’

Is this the gist of what you are saying? What is the reasoning you are saying?

I tell you the devil is having a field day if people cannot see the graveness of the acts of this age. I would personally not be so flippant as to dismiss observations of the current times.

It feels to me like you are in a corner and boxing air to get out of it. You start off by saying we should not look for signs as Jesus says He will come like a thief in the night so there are no signs and then you realise that Jesus gave specific signs and to understand this is in line with Catholic teaching and you try to discredit the Saints.

What is it exactly that you are defending?

 

[LilyM]

So to summise your points.

1 God is not outraged
2 These things have always gone on and at the same scale and are not escalating
3 People who study Eschatology are obsessed
4If you post mentioning the present times you are simply ‘spraying’

Is this the gist of what you are saying?

It feels to me like you are in a corner and boxing air to get out of it.

1. Wrong. God is always outraged at sin. And there’s more than plenty of that in the world today. But not more so now than at the time of Noah, or among the ancient Greeks and Romans, to use the same examples again.
2. Wrong. These things go in cycles, as the economy does. We’re certainly not in the best period in history, but it’s stretching massively to say it’s the worst either. Say among the worst, if that’ll satisfy you.

And like Jesus said, first remove the log from your own eye, then worry about the relative extent of the specks in everyone else’s.

1. Very very wrong. I specifically said it’s NOT automatically an obsession, but can become one. In my opinion there are more useful ways at least some of us could be employing our time.
2. Wrong yet again. It’s to do with the tone of the OP post, not the subject matter. But if you post only to say ‘look at how awful these times are, must be the end of the world’ well, excuse me but are you saying anything remotely new??? Or useful???

 

[blessedstar]

1. Wrong. God is always outraged at sin. Not more so now than at the time of Noah, though, to use an example.
2. Wrong. These things go in cycles, as the economy does. We’re certainly not in the best period in history, but it’s stretching to say it’s the worst either. Say among the worst, if that’ll satisfy you.
3. Very very wrong. I specifically said it’s NOT automatically an obsession, but can become one. In my opinion there are more useful ways at least some of us could be employing our time.
4. Wrong yet again. It’s to do with the tone of the OP post, not the subject matter. But if you post only to say ‘look at how awful these times are, must be the end of the world’ well, excuse me but are you saying anything remotely new??? Or useful???

Well you change your mind, read back at what you have said to people and then understand why I am pursuing this with you.

What tone exactly does the OP have? I see someone raising a legitimate point about the way the world is presently and the OP asks are we to blame? The OP doesn’t state its the end of the world, I don’t see a sentence like that.

I think you read this post and thought, ‘oh yawn another prophet of doom’ and I agree there are many folks out there make alsorts of claims (usually predicting dates) and they do the study of Eschatology no good at all.

There were the signs of the end of times in the time of the Apostles on earth, this is because from the moment of the Incarnation of Christ Jesus we were then living in the end times, it has been the end times ever since. St Paul firmly believed he would live to see the end of the ages, that wasn’t to be, should he too be accused of ‘spraying’? The close of the age will only come when all the signs are in place and that has not happened yet, but commenting on the end times does not mean people are thinking it is imminently the end, they are simply noting what has been prophecied by Christ Jesus.

The likelihood is that I will see my own end time before I will see the end of the ages, however until then I will note the signs of the times in order ‘that you see to it that you are not deceived’ as Jesus commanded to every age. In these times there are plenty of deceptions out there pretending to be good and are infact evil and they are infact increasing. IVF, legalised and promoted abortion, homosexual marriage, self promotion, self orientation, increasing greed, increasing unfair labour, increasing lack of peace, increasing sex trade, increasing abuse of the planet, increasing hatred between religions, increasing hedonism, increasing violence and worse than all these increasing indifference to each other. I see every week the Holy Father is admonishing one thing or another in society, this is more than in any other time. In past weeks it has been the upholding of the sanctity of marriage, in other speaking out against abortion, in some against violence of any kind and this week it is just use of the planet and good stewardship.

I don’t think it is good for two Catholics to argue afterall we are of one body and I want to say to you Lily that I have nothing against you and hope we can reach some sort of agreement.

In my Living prayer of life.

 

[anniemart]

This thread brought to mind the angel of wrath that did not destroy Poland because our beloved St. Faustina urgently recited the prayer as she was instructed…this being so…was not Our Father reacting to the sinning being commited in Poland? The large scale ramifications that would have followed? Could not this have been Our Father givning us much more than a “sign of the times?” And another thought comes to mind, what about our Blessed Mother’s intervention in the Six Day War? Isn’t her intervention here a response to the sign of the times?

 

[LilyM]

Well you change your mind, read back at what you have said to people and then understand why I am pursuing this with you.

What tone exactly does the OP have? I see someone raising a legitimate point about the way the world is presently and the OP asks are we to blame? The OP doesn’t state its the end of the world, I don’t see a sentence like that.

I think you read this post and thought, ‘oh yawn another prophet of doom’ and I agree there are many folks out there make alsorts of claims (usually predicting dates) and they do the study of Eschatology no good at all.

There were the signs of the end of times in the time of the Apostles on earth, this is because from the moment of the Incarnation of Christ Jesus we were then living in the end times, it has been the end times ever since. St Paul firmly believed he would live to see the end of the ages, that wasn’t to be, should he too be accused of ‘spraying’? The close of the age will only come when all the signs are in place and that has not happened yet, but commenting on the end times does not mean people are thinking it is imminently the end, they are simply noting what has been prophecied by Christ Jesus.

The likelihood is that I will see my own end time before I will see the end of the ages, however until then I will note the signs of the times in order ‘that you see to it that you are not deceived’ as Jesus commanded to every age. In these times there are plenty of deceptions out there pretending to be good and are infact evil and they are infact increasing. IVF, legalised and promoted abortion, homosexual marriage, self promotion, self orientation, increasing greed, increasing unfair labour, increasing lack of peace, increasing sex trade, increasing abuse of the planet, increasing hatred between religions, increasing hedonism, increasing violence and worse than all these increasing indifference to each other. I see every week the Holy Father is admonishing one thing or another in society, this is more than in any other time. In past weeks it has been the upholding of the sanctity of marriage, in other speaking out against abortion, in some against violence of any kind and this week it is just use of the planet and good stewardship.

I don’t think it is good for two Catholics to argue afterall we are of one body and I want to say to you Lily that I have nothing against you and hope we can reach some sort of agreement.

In my Living prayer of life.

The OP states as fact something which I will use my last breath to denounce as untruth. They state that we are the worst generatio of all.

We are NOT a worse generation than others were in the past. Such is NOT Catholic teaching. I’d like to see anywhere where it is stated that we are obliged as Catholics to believe such.

Of course some ages have been much better than we were, but it’s this idea that we’re on some never ending spiral of deepening depravity that I find objectionable and almost (note carefully that I said almost, not actually) sinfully despairing. Go wallow in it if you want to, I won’t.

 

[TOP]

What was the origin of the St. Micheal prayer and why? One Pope in particular agreed upon an escalation of evil “activities” in the world during the 20th century. This evil may lie dormat for a time, then peak at opportunities as was proven in the garden. Both of you have grounds for a good arguement. he knows his time is short, so he comes with wrath as well. he is an opportunist at the most cunning level. Tim

 

[Siena]

The truth of the matter is that there WILL be a generation that sees his return.

 

[blessedstar]

Go wallow in it if you want to, I won’t.

Wallow?

 

[blessedstar]

I gave alot of thought to your last post Lily and aside from finding a mud patch to wallow in I don’t know what I am supposedly wallowing in. Last time I checked I am a human being and not an hippopotamus.

Why do you presume that people who watch the world and its signs are wallowing in some sort of sinful dispair? Haven’t you read my signature. I am not dispairing. Why does studyiong Eschatology and noting the signs of the times equate to dispair? I think this is your view of it, but it certainly isn’t my view of it.

I don’t care to play the ostrich and bury my head in the sand. I see what is going on around me, I’m not blind to what is happening in the world, those things that are good and bad.

It is very much the Catholics role to note the signs of the times and to speak out against them. It is very much the Catholics role to lead by example even if that means swimming against the tide. It is not the Catholics role to ignore evils in the world because they have always been here, it is the Catholics role to stand up in society and speak up against such things. That is justice. Evil only escalates when good men do nothing. This is the increasing indifference.

However it is not the Catholics role to take themselves too seriously. I shall head off back to my mud patch Fancy joining me at my billabong.

 

[LilyM]

The truth of the matter is that there WILL be a generation that sees his return.

True, and there have been people in every generation for the last 2,000-some years who have been every bit as convinced as the good people here that it will be THEIR generation. And with just as much reason.

That’s an awful lot of people who were a) wrong and b) wasted their lives waiting for an Apocalypse that hasn’t yet come.

I for one, even if I were certain the Apocalypse were to be in half an hour, would do very little differently than I do now.

I already try to live the best possible life I can, avoid sin and beg God and my fellow men for forgiveness when I fail. As far as I know I’ve no mortal sins on my soul, if I did I doubt half an hour would be sufficient to get to confession - I imagine the lines would be too long for that - although I certainly would get to my nearest Church where hopefully a general absolution could be offered.

I just don’t see the point in any Christian thinking about it. For most of us judgement will come a lot sooner anyway, and the end of the world will have no bearing upon our destiny.

As for wallowing - yes, there are people who wallow in misery. Not necessarily despair, but misery if nothing else. Who think it’s normal to spend time thinking the worst and gloomiest about everything that’s going wrong in the world. And there are plenty of non-religious types who do the same - some climate change scientists, for example.

At least hippopotamuses have the good sense to wallow in mud - which cools them down and makes them happy rather than miserable.

 

[blessedstar]

True, and there have been people in every generation for the last 2,000-some years who have been every bit as convinced as the good people here that it will be THEIR generation. And with just as much reason.

That’s an awful lot of people who were a) wrong and b) wasted their lives waiting for an Apocalypse that hasn’t yet come.

As for wallowing - yes, there are people who wallow in misery. Who think it’s normal to spend time moaning about everything that’s going wrong in the world. And there are plenty of non-religious types who do the same - some climate change scientists, for example.

At least hippopotamuses have the good sense to wallow in mud - which cools them down and makes them happy rather than miserable.

Wow I have gone from a wallower to miserable! The insults just flow! I suggest you too find some mud to cool down Lily, its great in here come and join me.

 

[LilyM]

Wow I have gone from a wallower to miserable! The insults just flow! I suggest you too find some mud to cool down Lily, its great in here come and join me.

Well, if the grump’s cap fits wear it.

Aren’t there more useful and more important things to spend your time and mental energy on than an event that is at a yet-to-be announced future date - one that has less chance of affecting your life personally than you have of winning the lottery?

 

[John_Lavelle]

at the center of the universe is God nailed to a piece of wood by his will and an empty tomb both of which contradict my fear and my need to do much beyond repent, pray as I have been taught, love the people who are unlovable, and to trust this God, this Jesus, everyday

 

[blessedstar]

Well, if the grump’s cap fits wear it.

Aren’t there more useful and more important things to spend your time and mental energy on than an event that is at a yet-to-be announced future date - one that has less chance of affecting your life personally than you have of winning the lottery?

The cap doesn’t fit my head is too big. I am only grumpy first thing in the morning. (I hear grumpy folks have small heads due to banging their heads against the wall)

There are lots more important things in my life. I don’t spend much time studying Eschatology, but I have studied it and it is a legitimate part of the deposit of the faith to study with of course the right approach to it which is not to be a prophet of doom, but to study it as all other parts of Sacred Scripture are studied and that is to more fully understand the revelation of Christ Jesus.

It isn’t Lily that I don’t hear you and I have agreed with you that there are prophets of doom and that people do look at this topic from a non-too spiritually healthy approach.

I’ve enjoyed the banter and we do agree to some point so perhaps this is a healthy place to shut down this debate between you and I.

I do hope you’ll join me at my billabong, it is rather muddy but there is still a little fresh water here.

In my Living Prayer of life.

 

[LilyM]

The cap doesn’t fit my head is too big. I am only grumpy first thing in the morning. (I hear grumpy folks have small heads due to banging their heads against the wall)

There are lots more important things in my life. I don’t spend much time studying Eschatology, but I have studied it and it is a legitimate part of the deposit of the faith to study with of course the right approach to it which is not to be a prophet of doom, but to study it as all other parts of Sacred Scripture are studied and that is to more fully understand the revelation of Christ Jesus.

It isn’t Lily that I don’t hear you and I have agreed with you that there are prophets of doom and that people do look at this topic from a non-too spiritually healthy approach.

I’ve enjoyed the banter and we do agree to some point so perhaps this is a healthy place to shut down this debate between you and I.

I do hope you’ll join me at my billabong, it is rather muddy but there is still a little fresh water here.

In my Living Prayer of life.

I prefer the beach for pure wallowing pleasure - no mud for starters!