The Bible Alone and slavery

[Third_Day]

I would like to hear from Protestants that believe in the Bible Alone. I ask that they show me using the bible where slavery is condemned. If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.

Eph. 6:9
“And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him”.

Col. 4:1
“Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”

Paul writing to Philemon “Onesimus(a slave) I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you… Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother… welcome him as you would welcome me…If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me”

Col 3:22
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward”

1 Tim 6:1-2
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them"

Titus 2:9-10
“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.”

" Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America

 

[Third_Day]

No response. I know this is tough but if you believe in Sola Scriptura you need to back it up.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Well, actually slavery is not immoral per se. We are all to be slaves of Christ for instance.

We are also warned against slavery of other kinds than to Christ. For instance we are told that owing someone else money is a form of slavery and indeed we are warned about both sides, the borrower and the lender. Both present moral dangers.

In the end it’s a positive and not a negative that seems to most clearly legislate against slavery of one man to another. If you have a form of slavery that is you loving your neighbor as yourself, I’d say nothing wrong with it. If it doesn’t show such love, it falls short.

 

[Nine_Two]

In defense of Protestants, didn’t Paul teach that it was best not to have slaves?

 

[BrianH]

It is not a Bible alone problem. It is a Bible problem. One of the reasons I do not believe in innerancy.

 

[Nine_Two]

It is not a Bible alone problem. It is a Bible problem. One of the reasons I do not believe in innerancy.

How so?

I agree with you that the bible is not factually innerant, but I’m curious how you see this instance as proof of that?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I would like to hear from Protestants that believe in the Bible Alone. I ask that they show me using the bible where slavery is condemned. If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.

I don’t “believe in” Sola Scriptura, but I do believe God’s Scripture is the most sound rule/canon for the evaluation of doctrines.

As to your question, I’m not sure a solid case can be made that Scripture DOES condemn slavery, but then I don’t know of any denomination that has any dogma about that.

BTW, some of your Scriptures are troublesome because the Greek word “doulos” simply means one under authority. It’s usually translated into the English word “servant” or “employee.” Paul calls himself a “doulos” of Christ, and calls on us to be, as well. The term is not limited to a bondsman.

I think you may be assuming that everything is a clear-cut case of confirmed by Scripture or contrary to Scripture - that everything MUST be dogma or heresy. I disagree. But maybe this is PART of the reason why my Lutheran Catechism has 8 pages in it while my Catholic one has 800 pages?

Interesting how you hold Jefferson Davis accountable for what he states, and yet how you defend one (The Catholic Church) simply exempting exclusively one (itself) for accountability for what it alone says, defending instead that all lay that aside and just accept whatever it alone says “with docility” (CCC # 87, etc., etc.). Curious. Interesting, too, how you impose The Catholic Church’s position that self alone may declare self alone as the sole arbiter (regardles of the rule), you just impose that Catholic position on non-catholics. Curious.

Thank you!

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t “believe in” Sola Scriptura, but I do believe God’s Scripture is the most sound rule/canon for the evaluation of doctrines.

As to your question, I’m not sure a solid case can be made that Scripture DOES condemn slavery, but then I don’t know of any denomination that has any dogma about that.

BTW, some of your Scriptures are troublesome because the Greek word “doulos” simply means one under authority. It’s usually translated into the English word “servant” or “employee.” Paul calls himself a “doulos” of Christ, and calls on us to be, as well. The term is not limited to a bondsman.

I think you may be assuming that everything is a clear-cut case of confirmed by Scripture or contrary to Scripture - that everything MUST be dogma or heresy. I disagree. But maybe this is PART of the reason why my Lutheran Catechism has 8 pages in it while my Catholic one has 800 pages?

Interesting how you hold Jefferson Davis accountable for what he states, and yet how you defend one (The Catholic Church) simply exempting exclusively one (itself) for accountability for what it alone says, defending instead that all lay that aside and just accept whatever it alone says “with docility” (CCC # 87, etc., etc.). Curious. Interesting, too, how you impose The Catholic Church’s position that self alone may declare self alone as the sole arbiter (regardles of the rule), you just impose that Catholic position on non-catholics. Curious.

Thank you!

Pax

• Josiah

.

Your Catechism has 8 pages because Luther was German. In German thought, that which is listed is allowed, that which is not listed is not allowed, and that which is allowed is still not allowed.

A month ago, I started a thread to discuss the Catholic position on Scripture. You NEVER ONCE participated, so I am lead to conclude that you have NO DESIRE to understand that position and only like to throw it around like a college philosophy student who has learned a new phrase

 

[JonNC]

I would like to hear from Protestants that believe in the Bible Alone. I ask that they show me using the bible where slavery is condemned. If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.

Before I respond, I’d like to request that you explain your understanding of what sola scriptura means. For example, is it your understanding that someone who practices sola scriptura cannot in any way accept the three ecumenical creeds, or the early councils, or a set of confessions, since they are not in scripture?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I changed my mind, third day. It really is of no matter what your (mis)understanding of SS is.
Mark 12:30-31
*And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. *

If you can explain to me how enslaving someone is showing them that you love them as much as yourself, then I’ll concede the point.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

I changed my mind, third day. It really is of no matter what your (mis)understanding of SS is.
Mark 12:30-31
*And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. *

If you can explain to me how enslaving someone is showing them that you love them as much as yourself, then I’ll concede the point.

Jon

Although I agree with you on this, I would say that there is still the issue that Paul did not apply this verse to that situation.

 

[Third_Day]

=AmericanJosiah;6205091]
As to your question, I’m not sure a solid case can be made that Scripture DOES condemn slavery, but then I don’t know of any denomination that has any dogma about that.

Nowhere does the bible condemn slavery. The Catholic Church condemned slavery centuries ago.

[Interesting how you hold Jefferson Davis accountable for what he states

,
I simply posted Jefferson Davis’s reason for believing in slavery, it was because the bible didn’t condemn it. He obviously believed in Sola Scriptura.

and yet how you defend one (The Catholic Church) simply exempting exclusively one (itself) for accountability for what it alone says

, defending instead that all lay that aside and just accept whatever it alone says “with docility” (CCC # 87, etc., etc.). Curious. Interesting, too, how you impose The Catholic Church’s position that self alone may declare self alone as the sole arbiter (regardles of the rule), you just impose that Catholic position on non-catholics. Curious.
THe Catholic Church is the only Divinely established religion in existance. When the Church speaks, Christ speaks.

.
[/quote]

 

[Third_Day]

In defense of Protestants, didn’t Paul teach that it was best not to have slaves?

But he never condemned it.

 

[Third_Day]

Before I respond, I’d like to request that you explain your understanding of what sola scriptura means. For example, is it your understanding that someone who practices sola scriptura cannot in any way accept the three ecumenical creeds, or the early councils, or a set of confessions, since they are not in scripture?
Jon

I don’t see how you could accept the creeds or council decrees without putting your interpretation on them. For instance the Nicene Creed states " I believe in one,holy, catholic and apostolic church". Sola Scriptura believers re-interpret that to mean something totally different from what was intended.

 

[Third_Day]

I changed my mind, third day. It really is of no matter what your (mis)understanding of SS is.
Mark 12:30-31
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

If you can explain to me how enslaving someone is showing them that you love them as much as yourself, then I’ll concede the point.

Jon

That’s not the question. Paul doesn’t condemn slavery nor does Jesus. Did Paul consider a slave a “neighbor” or “property”?. He showed that he cared for the slave Onesimus and calls him his “child” but he never explicitly asks Philemon to release him from slavery.

The point is this. If you believe in Sola Scriptura then you cannot possibly condemn slavery. The Catholic Church condemned slavery centuries ago. This proves again that the Church is the final authority.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Perhaps we also have to use our imaginations a bit. I mean, slavery is simply forcing a human being to do as you wish against their will. Only God is supposed to be greater than any human being. Somewhere in the Bible it says something like “No Slave is greatest than his master”.

 

[Joshua27]

I don’t know if this was said just yet but:

There were slaves back then: as an act of payment for crimes when death wasn’t the price, or when perpetrators couldn’t pay the fine. Also slavery was a payment when debts weren’t paid.

Everyone knows this, but what many probably didn’t know is slaves were not kept indefinitely (or for life), as this is immoral. There was a specific time when ALL slaves were to be freed…and that time was during a Sabbatical (7th) Year. During this year all debts were to be forgiven, all slaves were freed, and the land which was worked heavily during the prior six years, was not to be touched so it could heal.

Everything was allowed to reset and be restored back to its original state. It was a Jubilee!

Slavery, when reference by God, was not immoral because it was always considerd temporary; an act of payment.

 

[SHW]

It is not a Bible alone problem. It is a Bible problem. One of the reasons I do not believe in innerancy.

Scripture is inerrant in regards to teachings about faith and morals because Scripture is inspired by God 2 Tim 3:16-17. Geographical details, historical details, and scientific details do not have to be accurate in every detail in order to teach the truth about/regarding faith and morals.

However, people do misinterpret these inerrant Scriptures. They err when they privately interpret Scripture because persons must be taught the correct interpretation from someone who already knows the correct interpretation. 2 Tim 2:2

2 Pt 3:16
(Paul) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

2 Pt 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, Acts 8:30-36

Many people privately study and interpret the Scriptures for themselves or else they learn from others who have privately studied and interpreted the Scriptures for themselves, so they usually do not ever come to the knowledge of the full truth. 2 Tim 3:1-7

Some persons, after they are baptized/come to the Lord, actually believe that they will continue to be saved even though they do not continue to obey God’s commandments until they die. Scripture states otherwise:

2 Tim 4:3-5
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

2 Pt 2:21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

We must obey God’s commandments until we die in order to enter into eternal life.

Mat 19:16-19
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

Few people are actually saved. Many people who think that they are saved will be turned away on Judgment Day because they did not obey God’s commandments.

Lk 13:22-27
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ "But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27"But he will reply, 'I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ 1 Pt 4:17-19

Mat 7:20-23
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

1 Jn 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

What happens to all liars on Judgment Day?

Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Once saved, always saved (OSAS) and/or Eternal Security are not Biblical. This OSAS teaching is a different gospel which is actually a man-made perversion of the gospel of Christ.

 

[JonNC]

Although I agree with you on this, I would say that there is still the issue that Paul did not apply this verse to that situation.

Hi Ralph,
Whether or not Paul applied this verse is, to me, irrelevent. The OP asked; “If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.” Christ’s call that we treat our neighbor (fellow human beings) as ourselves answers that question.
I suspect that the OP intends Sola Scriptura to mean that there must be a verbatim condemnation (Thou shalt not hold slaves), or those who practice SS cannot use scripture to condemn it. That is a total misunderstanding of SS.

Jon

 

[Third_Day]

=JonNC;6207630]
Whether or not Paul applied this verse is, to me, irrelevent. The OP asked; “If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.” Christ’s call that we treat our neighbor (fellow human beings) as ourselves answers that question.
I suspect that the OP intends Sola Scriptura to mean that there must be a verbatim condemnation (Thou shalt not hold slaves), or those who practice SS cannot use scripture to condemn it. That is a total misunderstanding of SS.
Jon

How is this a misunderstanding of SS? The bible is silent on many issues. The bible says thou shalt not kill so abortion is covered. However the bible does not tell us when life begins. There are christians that claim the bible is pro-choice.
Is masturbation a sin? The bible is silent. Is cloning a sin? The bible is silent. Is slavery a sin? The bible is silent.
This is why Christ established a visible authoritative Church to decided these moral issues that are not in the bible. If we base our faith and morals on Sola Scriptura then all we are doing is making ourselves the authority. We make ourselves our own church. That is not what Christ intended.