The Bible Alone and slavery

[JonNC]

=Third Day;6205901]That’s not the question. Paul doesn’t condemn slavery nor does Jesus. Did Paul consider a slave a “neighbor” or “property”?. He showed that he cared for the slave Onesimus and calls him his “child” but he never explicitly asks Philemon to release him from slavery.

The question was, If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?. I did just that. That Pual doesn’t condemn it is irrelevent. Christ does, when He tells us to love our neighbor. Sola Scriptura does not require a verbatim expression, as you seem to think.

The point is this. If you believe in Sola Scriptura then you cannot possibly condemn slavery.

I just did.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Third Day;6207674]How is this a misunderstanding of SS? The bible is silent on many issues. The bible says thou shalt not kill so abortion is covered. However the bible does not tell us when life begins. There are christians that claim the bible is pro-choice. Is masturbation a sin? The bible is silent. Is cloning a sin? The bible is silent. Is slavery a sin? The bible is silent.

The Bible is not silent on how we treat our fellow man. 7 of the 10 commendments deal with how we treat others, and Christ tells us we must love our neighbor as ourselves. Tell me how enslaving another is loving that person as ourselves. The th commandment tells us not to steal, and the 9th not to covet our neighbors property. Slavery, by definition, confiscates property, that being the fruits of one’s labor.

Slavery is a no-brainer; it is immoral and sinful, as it violates the 10 Commandments and Christs command.

This is why Christ established a visible authoritative Church to decided these moral issues that are not in the bible. If we base our faith and morals on Sola Scriptura then all we are doing is making ourselves the authority. We make ourselves our own church. That is not what Christ intended.

And how is scripture and Tradition different than scripture alone in this way? The decisions that the Church makes are measured either by scripture alone, in the case of Lutherans, and scripture and Tradition in the case of Catholics.
The only difference is that in SS, Tradition is not equal to scripture, but accountable to it.

Jon

 

[Jolly_Joe]

If the Catholic Church is the authority I suppose we would have to conclude that at times in history slavery was moral and at other times immoral based on the position of the day.

But it gets to be rather hard to discuss for some reason.

Slavery based on so called races of humans, well I think the history really is that was condemned many times. Though there is certainly a case to be made in some instances where word and deed did not seem in alignment.

Slavery based on social class was not condemned for a long, long time. Matter of fact, the Catholic Church had many slaves, called today serfs, of that kind for a long time itself.

Was it so horrible to have them. I don’t really know. I guess about the only thing worse than being a serf was being lower than a serf which would have been the result if the Church had ended it’s relationship with them. Often the Church was kinder than some of the nobles.

Europe was just plain poor, especially since the spice and silk trades emptied the wealth of Europe to the East. Until the opium trade got going anyway and brought that wealth back. The life of the serf was not going to be easy no matter what, but that the Church took an active part in that form of slavery, I really don’t think can be argued.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Wait I recall history of slavery in the more modern period, how can anyone who is a Christian allow for the brutality of the African and Native American slavery system and dare say God supported that cruel and vicious violation of human beings?

Every master that abused a slave was in sin that is clear by scripture and taking a freeman and no less a child for lifelong servitude is barbaric.

And I recall the Portugese and Spanish both Roman Catholic Nations supported the trade and likely profited from the blood money. Protestant ones sadly were no better in some cases like the British Empire.

 

[Third_Day]

=JonNC;6207684]The question was, If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?. I did just that. That Pual doesn’t condemn it is irrelevent. Christ does, when He tells us to love our neighbor. Sola Scriptura does not require a verbatim expression, as you seem to think.

How does"love your neighbor as yourself" condem slavery? Paul knew this commandment from Christ yet he did not condemn slavery

 

[Third_Day]

=JonNC;6207732]The Bible is not silent on how we treat our fellow man. 7 of the 10 commendments deal with how we treat others, and Christ tells us we must love our neighbor as ourselves. Tell me how enslaving another is loving that person as ourselves. The th commandment tells us not to steal, and the 9th not to covet our neighbors property. Slavery, by definition, confiscates property, that being the fruits of one’s labor.

Slavery is a no-brainer; it is immoral and sinful, as it violates the 10 Commandments and Christs command.

If slavery is a no-brainer according to scriptura alone then explain why Paul said this:

Eph. 6:9
“And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him”.

Col. 4:1
“Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”

Paul writing to Philemon “Onesimus(a slave) I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you… Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother… welcome him as you would welcome me…If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me”

Col 3:22
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward”

1 Tim 6:1-2
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them"

Titus 2:9-10
“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.”

 

[JonNC]

If slavery is a no-brainer according to scriptura alone then explain why Paul said this:

Eph. 6:9
“And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him”.

Col. 4:1
“Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”

Paul writing to Philemon “Onesimus(a slave) I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you… Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother… welcome him as you would welcome me…If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me”

Col 3:22
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward”

1 Tim 6:1-2
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them"

Titus 2:9-10
“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.”

Paul is speaking to the reality of the time - therewas slavery. How do you consider this a condoning of it?

Jon

 

[benidict]

How is this a misunderstanding of SS? The bible is silent on many issues. The bible says thou shalt not kill so abortion is covered. However the bible does not tell us when life begins. There are christians that claim the bible is pro-choice.
Is masturbation a sin? The bible is silent. Is cloning a sin? The bible is silent. Is slavery a sin? The bible is silent.
This is why Christ established a visible authoritative Church to decided these moral issues that are not in the bible. If we base our faith and morals on Sola Scriptura then all we are doing is making ourselves the authority. We make ourselves our own church. That is not what Christ intended.

abortion is covered by the law, thou shalt not kill? really? actually, if you look up the passage in the law about what a husband is supposed to do if he expects his wife of adultry. God gives the priest the method for inducing an abortion. nope only thru Sacred Tradition do we have an opposition to abortion. good try tho. peace

 

[Dokimas]

I would like to hear from Protestants that believe in the Bible Alone. I ask that they show me using the bible where slavery is condemned. If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.

Eph. 6:9
“And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him”.

Col. 4:1
“Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”

Paul writing to Philemon “Onesimus(a slave) I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you… Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother… welcome him as you would welcome me…If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me”

Col 3:22
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward”

1 Tim 6:1-2
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them"

Titus 2:9-10
“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.”

" Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America

It’s not condemned. What is condemned is not following the Law about slaves for Israel and in the NT, being an ungodly slave owner is wrong. There are proper reasons people go into slavery and improper. If a debt is owed and can’t be paid, the law was that the debtor worked as a slave until the debt was paid. Who’d that work in our society?​

We are all slaves: to sin or to our Creator.

 

[benidict]

How is this a misunderstanding of SS? The bible is silent on many issues. The bible says thou shalt not kill so abortion is covered. However the bible does not tell us when life begins. There are christians that claim the bible is pro-choice.
Is masturbation a sin? The bible is silent. Is cloning a sin? The bible is silent. Is slavery a sin? The bible is silent.
This is why Christ established a visible authoritative Church to decided these moral issues that are not in the bible. If we base our faith and morals on Sola Scriptura then all we are doing is making ourselves the authority. We make ourselves our own church. That is not what Christ intended.

ok i know this is off topic. but it does go to the authority of the Church. sorry third day. the commandment, thou shalt not kill did not cover abortion. if you look into the law, if a husband thought his wife was an adultress, he could take her to the priest and they would give her a concoction, that would… cause an abortion if she had been sleeping around. it wasnt until the apostles and the early Church fathers that abortion was condemned. again. without Church tradition we are lost in the sauce. so many issues this argument could cover. maybe ill start a thread on polygamy. thats not condemned either…Peace

 

[ralphinal]

Hi Ralph,
Whether or not Paul applied this verse is, to me, irrelevent. The OP asked; “If we go by Sola Scriptura how can you possibly tell someone that slavery is immoral?.” Christ’s call that we treat our neighbor (fellow human beings) as ourselves answers that question.
I suspect that the OP intends Sola Scriptura to mean that there must be a verbatim condemnation (Thou shalt not hold slaves), or those who practice SS cannot use scripture to condemn it. That is a total misunderstanding of SS.

Jon

What if you looked at it this way.

Paul was the first theologin, and the only one to write scripture. As such, the ways he expounded upon the teachings of Christ have authority. Paul did not see slavery as an inherent mistreatment of those enslaved, based upon any teachings of Christ.

Note, I do not disagree with your position. I am just throwing it out there.

 

[JonNC]

=ralphinal;6208491]What if you looked at it this way.

Paul was the first theologin, and the only one to write scripture. As such, the ways he expounded upon the teachings of Christ have authority. Paul did not see slavery as an inherent mistreatment of those enslaved, based upon any teachings of Christ.

I agree with you, Ralph, in the sense that Paul was, afterall, a creature of the culture and environment in which he lived. Slavery was present and accepted.

Note, I do not disagree with your position. I am just throwing it out there.

Thanks. I kind of took umbrage with the OP’s premise, that seemed to be that SS means that if scripture doesn’t say something verbatim, those who practice SS are not permitted to believe it. It irks me when Protestants come and claim to know more about Catholicism than Catholics, too.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

I agree with you, Ralph, in the sense that Paul was, afterall, a creature of the culture and environment in which he lived. Slavery was present and accepted.

Now, if we wanted to see it in the clearest form, we can say that this might be a good example of how Jesus tried to get his followers to be in the world but not of it. How strange would it have seemed to Paul to start to think that because of basic human dignity, all humans deserve the right to self-determination. Because of that, if you forcibly remove self-determination from someone, without legitimate cause (punishment for a crime), you are no longer treating your neighbor as yourself. And yet Paul was willing to say that within Christ, there is no servant or free…

Naturally, that begs the question of if the slavery that Paul knew was the same as what we know as slavery

Thanks. I kind of took umbrage with the OP’s premise, that seemed to be that SS means that if scripture doesn’t say something verbatim, those who practice SS are not permitted to believe it. It irks me when Protestants come and claim to know more about Catholicism than Catholics, too.

Jon

I know. You are fair like that.

Now, if he wanted to ask the same thing of those Fundamentalists who hold that exactly what it says is exactly what it means, that is another question

 

[SHW]

Whenever Paul has either a personal opinion or a judgment to share, he lets his audience know that it is either his personal opinion or his judgment (his judgment is based on his knowledge and understanding of Christ’s gospel).

1 Corinthians 7:39-40
A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 7:10
Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:25
Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy.

1 Corinthians 7:1-8

Otherwise, all the things that Paul and the other apostles write are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Peter 2:18-19
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. 19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.

Colossians 4:1
Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

Both of these are commands of the Lord.

Jesus did not come to earth to abolish this form of slavery. Good men, with the help of God, need to work to do that.

Jesus came to save sinners from their slavery to sin and thereby give them hope of eternal life Titus 3:7. He desires to free mankind from their slavery to sin so that they can then become slaves to obedience (which leads to righteousness) and thereby inherit eternal life when they die. Romans 6:16