The Bible and Catholics

[jmcrae]

These apostles might have been catholics in a sense because it was used to describe Christians in the early 2nd century. BUT, they did not teach certain modern Catholic doctrines such as purgatory, penance, salvation+works+baptism, etc.

They taught what the Catholic Church continues to teach today. The teachings have never changed, although certainly our understanding has developed over time, and we use words that they didn’t use, like “Trinity,” and “Bible,” and “Sacrament,” among others.

As to “salvation+works+baptism,” it was Jesus who said, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age,” (Matthew 28:19-20) and it was Jesus who said, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.” (Matthew 25:41-43)

If the Church teaches “salvation+works+baptism” it is because Jesus taught it, first. He did not dilute His gospel into a Four Spiritual Laws tract, so we don’t see any call to do so, either.

But what we really teach is that we are all saved by the grace of God, given at Calvary by Jesus Christ on the Cross, and that everything we do in response to this is but a small token of the debt we owe - we are saved by Christ; not by anything we do.

 

[mcrow]

While the word ‘purgatory’ does not appear in the NT, neither does the word ‘Trinity’, and I am assuming as a ‘Born again Christian’ you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Both of these finalized doctrines were formed in the Catholic Church based on writings from the Old and New Testaments and Tradition handed down through the Church.

While Purgatory isn’t in the bible by name there is some indication that it is biblical:

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,” 1 peter 18-19

2 Maccabees 12:43-46 covers the aspect of praying for the dead.

 

[TimothyH]

Certainly, the Holy Spririt guided the authors, no question about that.

I’m just looking at this from the earthly POV and that is that the Catholic Church (guided by the Holy Spirit)compiled the books (that were inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit) that make up the bible.

I didn’t mean to challenge or be confrontational. My post was written in haste and did sound that way. Sorry.

-Tim-

 

[Jesus_Freak_357]

I know you guys are wondering what I think the “essentials” are. That is, what makes a church Christian. Here they are.

1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9;1 John 4:1-4).
2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2).
4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9)
5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
6. God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
   7.Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about denominations that is pretty important is that denominations are due to the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye-to-eye. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ.

 

[JRKH]

I know you guys are wondering what I think the “essentials” are. That is, what makes a church Christian. Here they are.

1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9;1 John 4:1-4).
2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2).
4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9)
5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
6. God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
   7.Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary

In your very first sentence you confirm what I have said regarding “essentials”. the phrase “what I think the essentials are…” means that you cannot point to a commonly held list of essentials even among protestants let alone between protestants and Catholics.
As to the list provided, Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans would likely add to your list that one must have a proper understanding of the Body and Blood (The Real Presence) in the Lord’s Supper (Eucharist), without which you “…have no life in you…” (John 6:53); and if one partakes without properly discerning, will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of Christ and will eat and drink judgement on himself…(1 Cor 11:27-29)
Another “essential” that might be mentioned is baptism - Apparently you do not hold that it is necessary - others clearly do.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about denominations that is pretty important is that denominations are due to the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye-to-eye.

I agree with this, but do you believe that this “failure” is acceptable to God?
In other words should we view such failure as acceptable to God? Or rather should we not struggle to regain the unity that Christ Prayed for and the Apostles exhorted us to?

But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ.

Are you sure that our salvation is not affected by our differences?
Remember that not everyone who calls “Lord Lord” will be saved. (Mt 7:21)

We are Called to Unity (John 17:20-21)(Rom 15:5-6)(1 Cor 1:10)(2 Cor 13:11)(Php 1:27)(1 Pet 3:8)
We are called to be Perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect (Mt 5:48)
We are Called to Listen to the Church (Mt 18:17)

It’s easy to espouse things like “unity on essentials” and “relationship with Christ” and “Saved by Faith”, it is another thing entirely to explain and prove them.
As has already been mentioned, different groups will list different things as essentials.
Likewise “relationship with Christ” is extremely vague and requires some definition to have meaning, after all Mormons too have a “relationship with Christ”
“Saved By Faith” is yet another “sound bite” that sounds nice and simple but becomes quite complicated when one begins to dig into what is meant by it.

As you move forward on your journey you will see more of what I mean by this.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

These anwsers are actually really helpful. Thank you for asking.

As far as my view on how the Bible was developed, I believe that it was written by men divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the early Christian church recognized what was Scripture, but did not establish it. Basically, it discovered what was already authentic. In John 10:27, Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.”

Although I suspect that this thread is already getting thoroughly derailed into other matters, I just wanted to touch base with you once again on the matter of how we came to have the Bible.

I think that to a certain extent what you say here is true, that the Church, “discovered (I would say recognized) what was already authentic”. The Church then codified this discovery into a “biblia” and the result was that, in accordance with Christ’s own instructions, the universal Church “listened to The Church” and accepted this biblia (bible). Thus we can say that the Bible, as we know it today, came through the Catholic Church.
Do you agree with this?

Peace
James

 

[aicirt]

These apostles might have been catholics in a sense because it was used to describe Christians in the early 2nd century. BUT, they did not teach certain modern Catholic doctrines such as purgatory, penance, salvation+works+baptism, etc.

About your question. What I mean by “they recognized what was scripture, but did not establish it” is that the scripture did not need to be deemed worthy by men. The documents in themselves carry power and authenticity because they are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

About your last paragraph, just because a movement starts late doesn’t mean that it is any less true. Also, the Bible allows us to have differences of opinion(Rom. 14:1-5). I believe that Christians are united under the essentials of Christianity and divided because of the non-essentials. Thus denominations are created.

So you have Truth for 1500 years, which your ancestors followed, and then bingo…there’s another truth (Luther) which then morphs into many other “truths”? This makes sense?

Henry VIII, given the title Protector of the Faith, pertitions the Vatican for an annulment and when he doesn’t get the answer he wants, starts his own church. Morph number one.

Up until the 1930s, all the Christian churches were against birth control, abortion, and homosexual marriages. The Catholic Church still stands exactly where it did 2011 years ago. Not so the Protestants. Right now the Presbyterians are allowing practicing homosexuals to be ministers. It is now PC, and the acts of homosexuality are no longer a sin. Really?

If we are united under the essentials of Christianity, what are they today?

 

[zz912]

I know you guys are wondering what I think the “essentials” are. That is, what makes a church Christian. Here they are.

1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9;1 John 4:1-4).
2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2).
4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9)
5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
6. God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
   7.Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about denominations that is pretty important is that denominations are due to the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye-to-eye. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ.

The Catholic Church has all these “essentials” you require, so when will you be joining the Catholic Church? As you said, everything else is “non-essential”, so you have no reason to be separated from the Church over these “non-essentials”. Otherwise you would be sinning by your own admission, since sin is what causes division.

So would you like help finding a good parish near you?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Did the Bible come from the Catholic Church?

When the Church was nearly 400 years old, she selected, canonized, and named 27 of her own writings as the New Testament.

At the same time, she canonized the 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament.

Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named Tá Biblia, “The Books.”

Reference: Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Everett Ferguson, Editor (a Protestant publication)

Was this done under the influence of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely.

Is the Church based on the Bible? No, the New Testament is based on the teaching of the Catholic Church.

The first Protestant appeared in the 16th century. How does any Protestant know the writings contained in the Bible are “inspired” (God-breathed). They must accept the declaration of the Catholic Church.