The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus

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Selene said:
Isaiah 9:6 For there is a child born for us, a son given to us and dominion is laid on his shoulders; and this is the name they give him: Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace.
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Your translation is flawed. It should read as follows:

For a chiold has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Advisor, Mighty God and Everlasting Father has called his name Sar-Shalom [Prince of Peace].
{Stone Edition Tanakh by Artscroll)
 
Claire_from_DE said:
But there is information about the nature of God that was only gradually revealed by Him. To the Jews, God revealed Himself as One. He is a spirit, He is everywhere, He is all powerful, He is faithful to His promises, His ways are not our ways, etc

Through Jesus, God entered into human history in a new way (the Word became flesh at a particular time in human history). God did something that He had not done before. He took on a body and He revealed Himself as a Trinity of persons who are totally One. Jesus said He and the Father are one. He would send the Spirit who would lead the church into all truth. They were to baptize in the name (not ‘names’) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Muhammad didn’t build on what God had revealed; he actually denied it.
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This is what I am saying. The gospel of John CONFLICTS with the book of Numbers. They cannot BOTH be right. Now, you cannot throw away Numbers, since the New Testament has the Hebrew Scriptures as its foundation. Your two choices are to ditch the book of John, or to ditch the whole Bible altogether.
 
I will repeat what I mentioned before, both the Bible and the Quran, because, both the Bible and the Quran teach that Jesus is not God.

It is clear enough to everyone that the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus, so we do not need to spend much time explaining that.

On the other hand, many people misunderstand the Bible; they feel that the belief in Jesus as God is so widespread that it must have come from the Bible. This article shows quite conclusively that the Bible does not teach that.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. In the Bible God is always someone else other than Jesus.

Some will say that something Jesus said or something he did while on the earth proves that he is God. We will show that the disciples never came to the conclusion that Jesus is God. And those are people who lived and walked with Jesus and thus knew first hand what he said and did. Furthermore, we are told in the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible that the disciples were being guided by the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, surely they should know it. But they did not. They kept worshipping the one true God who was worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (see Acts 3:13).

All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6). Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus. In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15:28).

Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God’s first creature, some of what they wrote clearly shows that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being. This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote. Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: “…the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3).

Therefore, to find something in these writings and claim that these teach that Jesus is God is to misuse and misquote what those authors are saying. What they wrote must be understood in the context of their belief that Jesus is a creature of God as they have already clearly said.

So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3).
 
lid2 said:
Question: What do you think of below sites:
The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus

The Bible - A Closer Look!
islamtomorrow.com/bible/

Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
islaminfo.com/new/jesus.asp

IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison
soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp

THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html

Christ in Islam
home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Christ.htm

Mary & Jesus in Quran

islamworld.net/
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All links are Islamic links,and all Islamic links are false.OK tell me If bible denies the divinity of Christ,then why Muslims do not follow bible?Why they brought a new scripture Koran to disprove Jesus’ divinity?Ask them if possible.
I even did not read these links because I guess what they wrote.They only can bash others with their illogical controversial articles,but they(Muslims) are not ready to accept any type of criticism.
 
OK, To your question, we all know that Qur’an is the last Book revealed to the last of the Messenges… The wisdom necessitates preserving it. Had the Qur’an been affected by any change, mankind would have been left without a chaste Book as a reference. The infinite wisdom of Allah and His mercy necessitate that Allah would not neglect His creatures, or leave them to their own whimsical opinions staggering in the darkness of ignorance, and deviation.

Believing in the divine Scriptures is one of the articles of faith. It is mandatory to believe that they are revealed and sent down by Allah. We must believe in every Scripture that is mentioned in the Qur’an by name. They are five:
  1. The Qur’an, which is in our hands, the Book that was sent down to Muhammad, peace be upon him.
  2. The Torah, The Old testament, sent down to Musa, peace be upon him.
  3. The Injeel, The Evangel, or Gospel, sent down to Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him.
  4. Az-Zaboor, the Psalms, sent down to Dawood (David), peace be upon him.
  5. The Sheets of Ibraheem, peace be upon him.
We know that it is obligatory to believe in all those Books. But, do we have to believe in all of the Scriptures circulated today? Or, are the Scriptures available today the same as those revealed to the Messengers of Allah? These are general questions. The answer is that although the Scriptures that preceded the Qur’an may contain parts of the original texts, but they cannot be considered as genuine, for the following reasons:
  1. The complete original texts of those Scriptures are no longer in existence. What is available today is only the translation with which the opinions of the translators, and the exegeses are mixed.
  2. The original texts of those Books were not written down during the Messengers’ lifetime, rather, they were written down hundreds of years thereafter. They were collected from reports given by the Messengers’ followers as was the case of the Bible. The original text itself disappeared and was compiled for the second time from reports and narratives, and so was the case of the Torah.
  3. All previous Scriptures were not meant to address mankind at large, rather each Book was sent to one particular nation, for the divine Message was not completed then. Every Messenger gave his people the good news of the Messenger who would succeed him.
  4. The languages of those Scriptures have been altered, or became archaic. Even if those Scriptures were available today in their original texts, it is most unlikely that there would be any people, who would be able to decode their languages, thus such Scriptures would not be valid to use without understanding their texts. As for the text of the Qur’an, it is still available in its original language in which it was sent down to Muhammad, peace be upon him. The Qur’an maintains its originality and validity for the following reasons:
a. Allah Himself has promised to preserve the Qur’an. He said: We it is Who sent down the Dthikr and we are preserving it.
b. The Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet, peace be upon him. Whenever a verse, or a surah was revealed, the Messenger, peace be upon him, would dictate it to a scribe, telling him to place it in the order and the surah it belonged to. Besides, many companions had committed the Qur’an to memory, and knew the circumstantial events that prompted the revelation of the surahs, or the verses. All this information is compiled in authentic works.
c. Jibreel, used to review the Qur’an with the Prophet, peace be upon him, once a year. The year in which the Prophet, peace be upon him, died, Jibreel reviewed the Qur’an with him twice.
d. The men around the Prophet, peace be upon him, committed the Qur’an to memory. Therefore no one would have been able to change anything in the Qur’an, for any supposed alteration would have been spotted right away by those who memorized the Qur’an.
e. The language in which the Qur’an was revealed is still the same, therefore anyone who knows Arabic can easily understand the Qur’an and the signification of its text.
f. The exegetes have separated their commentaries from the main text of the Qur’an to keep the letter chaste.
There is another important proof of the Qur’an’s originality. If samples of the Qur’an copies were collected at random from Arab and non-Arab countries and. compared with each other, they would have been found identical. Those who have committed the whole Qur’an to memory, would have ascertained this fact.
g. The Qur’an is the last Book revealed to the last of the Messenges… The wisdom necessitates preserving it. Had the Qur’an been affected by any change, mankind would have been left without a chaste Book as a reference. The infinite wisdom of Allah and His mercy necessitate that Allah would not neglect His creatures, or leave them to their own whimsical opinions staggering in the darkness of ignorance, and deviation.
 
a. Allah Himself has promised to preserve the Qur’an. He said: We it is Who sent down the Dthikr and we are preserving it.
b. The Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet, peace be upon him. Whenever a verse, or a surah was revealed, the Messenger, peace be upon him, would dictate it to a scribe, telling him to place it in the order and the surah it belonged to. Besides, many companions had committed the Qur’an to memory, and knew the circumstantial events that prompted the revelation of the surahs, or the verses. All this information is compiled in authentic works.
c. Jibreel, used to review the Qur’an with the Prophet, peace be upon him, once a year. The year in which the Prophet, peace be upon him, died, Jibreel reviewed the Qur’an with him twice.
d. The men around the Prophet, peace be upon him, committed the Qur’an to memory. Therefore no one would have been able to change anything in the Qur’an, for any supposed alteration would have been spotted right away by those who memorized the Qur’an.
e. The language in which the Qur’an was revealed is still the same, therefore anyone who knows Arabic can easily understand the Qur’an and the signification of its text.
f. The exegetes have separated their commentaries from the main text of the Qur’an to keep the letter chaste.
There is another important proof of the Qur’an’s originality. If samples of the Qur’an copies were collected at random from Arab and non-Arab countries and. compared with each other, they would have been found identical. Those who have committed the whole Qur’an to memory, would have ascertained this fact.
g. The Qur’an is the last Book revealed to the last of the Messenges… The wisdom necessitates preserving it. Had the Qur’an been affected by any change, mankind would have been left without a chaste Book as a reference. The infinite wisdom of Allah and His mercy necessitate that Allah would not neglect His creatures, or leave them to their own whimsical opinions staggering in the darkness of ignorance, and deviation.
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We already have been down this path before about the koran on so many other threads.

It’s all hogwash! All you have is Uthman’s version of the koran and it’s all in a jumble.

Perhaps you should study the history of the koran from all sources, not just islamic ones who paint a pretty picture.
 
Prodigal_Child said:
Your translation is flawed. It should read as follows:

For a chiold has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Advisor, Mighty God and Everlasting Father has called his name Sar-Shalom [Prince of Peace].
{Stone Edition Tanakh by Artscroll)
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For your information, the Jewish Tanakh actually reads:

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah9.html

This child which is born is called El-Gibbor, which means ‘Mighty God’ and is never used of a man. Avi-Ad is literally ‘Father of Eternity’ and could never describe a mere man.

In an attempt to avoid the impact of this passage’s significance to the divinity of the Messiah, certain Jewish Publications such as the Stone Edition have translated it in a way as to suggest that the divine titles are not messianic in nature. However, a quote from the great rabbi Ibn Ezra responds: "There are some interpreters who say that ‘wonderful, counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father’ are the names of God, and that only ‘prince of peace’ is the name of the child. But according to my view, the right interpretation is that they are all the names of the child. (Walter Riggans, Yeshua Ben David [Wowborough, East Sussex; MARC, 1995], p. 370) "

And as I pointed out in my previous post, it is scientifically possible for a substance to be of the exact same nature and yet different at the same time.
 
lid2 said:
I will repeat what I mentioned before, both the Bible teach that Jesus is not God.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God.
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you have no idea what you’re talking about

John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

so who is the only-begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father?..Moohamed? not a chance
 
You know I ask of you no reward for this.I don’t need to argue, you can check the links in my post and answer your inquires.

Holy Quran
Surah 5 ( Chapter No 005 ) Titel The Table Spread

005/116. And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

005/117. I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying) : Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

005/118. If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them (lo! they are Thy slaves). Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

005/119. Allah saith: This is a day in which their truthfulness profiteth the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph.

Holy Quran
Surah 4 ( Chapter No 004 ) Titel The Women

004/157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain.

004/158. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, wise.

004/159. There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them

004/170. O mankind! The messenger hath come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefor believe; ( it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

004/171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three”. Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender
 
lid2 said:
Holy Quran
Surah 4 ( Chapter No 004 ) Titel The Women

004/157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain.

004/158. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, wise.
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Salaam Lid and Peace be with you,

What I find controversial about this part in the Qu’ran is that Allah says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus but instead crucified someone who looked like Jesus. "They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them." I would think that Allah whom you say is just would never have an innocent man crucified in place of Isa simply because Allah perfer to save Isa. If you say that the man who was crucified was not innocent because Muslims believed the man to be Judas Iscariot, the betrayer…then that would only make Allah a sinner. Deception is a sin, and I would think that Allah whom you say is just would not sin.

Furthermore, the Qu’ran does encourage Arabs to refer to the people of the book (that is Jews and Christians) to learn the truth if they are in doubt (Sura 10:94)).

Sura 10:94 If you doubt about what We have revealed to you, enquire of those who read the Book before you. The truth has indeed come to you from your Lord. So do not for a moment include yourself with the sceptical.

The Qu’ran also urged Muslims to have faith in the Bible (Sura 3:84, 119; 4:136). This then makes my wonder why Allah would encourage the Muslims to go to the Jews and Christians if the Torah and the Bible have been altered. Later, in the Qu’ran, we see that Allah suddenly changed his mind and claimed that the Jews altered the Torah (Sura 2:75). So, which is correct? Does Allah still believe that the Torah and the Bible are the word of God or not?

An important concept in Islam is tawatur (meaning "successive transmission’). It refers to the existence of independent and unbroken chains of people who could be trusted to transmit a message accurately. According to Muslims, the Qu’ran is the Word of God and God’s word cannot be altered. According to the Qu’ran, Allah says that the Torah and the Bible are the Word of God handed down to Moses and Isa (Jesus). If you believe that the Word of God in the Qu’ran cannot be altered, then what makes you think that God’s Word was altered in the Torah and the Bible? If God’s words in the Torah and the Bible were altered, then logically God’s word in the Qu’ran can also be altered. After all, is he not the same God who claimed to have given the Torah and Bible and then claim that his words can never be altered?

Muslim scholars who study the Qu’ran and Hadith have indicated that the Jews and Christians have distored the meanings of the Scriptures, but the text itself have not been altered or changed. In other words, the texts are the same. It was the interpretation of the texts that was distorted. According to Razi (a pretigious representative of the Muslim community and who wrote al-Tafsir al-kabir, ‘The Great Commentary on the Qu’ran)’: “Scripture that has been passed down by means of successive transmission is not liable to textual corruption” (Muslim fada’il Razi, VI:11, p. 148). His understanding is based on the belief that just as in the case of the Qu’ran, the Scriptures of the Torah and Bible have been handed down through tawatur, that is, multiple and uninterrupted chains of transmission. After all, what good is Allah giving the Qu’ran and Muslims claiming that Allah’s words in the Qu’ran can’t be changed; yet believe that this same Allah gave his words also to the Jews and Christians, but it can be changed?

Peace be with you,
Selene
 
Why is your thread called “The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus” when all your links are to Moslem sites quoting the Coran?
 
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