The Bible Forbids Rituals?

[AntalKalnoky]

Friends do not believe we need rituals to receive the grace of God in Christ. I understand you do…or you “know” you do…but I do not…“know” or “believe” that to be the case.

Don’t Quakers have ritual meals, prayers?

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Yes meaningless repitition is not good. Prayers should not be a race to get done;moreover,through prayer we should reflect and meditate on what we are saying.

The Rosary is Not “Meaningless repitition”. It is profound Prayers, and Psychologists recently said Repetive Prayers aere the Best way to reduce stress, Relax; Proven in Church or home. Rapid Rosary is Not “Race to get it done”, But too fast Praying. Few who Pray don’t medidate.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is no such thing as “praying too fast,” as if prayer has a speed limit. Prayer is the rising of the heart and mind to God. Period. Only the person doing the praying knows his own mind and heart. And God knows, of course.

 

[exnihilo]

You probably won’t like this news, but at least you can give 'em points for consistency: many Evangelicals and Charismatics refuse to have regular or frequent Communion precisely on the grounds that doing so would be ritualistic.

I asked a couple of friends who attend a church with monthly communion if they thought it should be offered more often. There response was no, it would become too common. While I cant deny that what we do frequently can tend to become common communion could only be such if it is not approached with the reverence and understanding it deserves. The real test is to see if they only tell their wives they love them once a month lest the ritual of showing affection become too common.

A Christian is not someone who has undergone rituals…but someone who lives a life of faith and trust in Christ…that is the difference and difficulty between Catholic/ritualistic faith traditions and Protestant/non-ritualistic traditions.which center not on the fact a ritual has been performed as “a means of grace”…but grace through faith…you’ll see it as an underlying current in every thread…some even defining being a “Christian” by baptism in water being conducted “correctly”…it “appears” that some people are saying that if the ritual is conducted “properly” with the “correct” words being spoken…one is a Christian…apart from an act of faith in Christ.

I understand your point. Yet at the same time this world relies on physical expressions. Calling yourself Christian means you have to live up to the ideals. A person can be a bad Christian in as much as they do a very poor job of living up to the ideals. They could even make no effort at all. The Church must have some means of declaring to the world that someone who claims the title Christian is in fact not. The Church owns the title of Christian. Ultimately God will judge those who claim to be Christian by the proper standard. But in this world we must have some physical means of deciding the matter since we cant see into people’s hearts. It seems to me proscribed rituals are one way you can delineate Christians from non-Christians. What the individual does after the rituals might be better described as an adjective to the word Christian, unless the Church through its power removes the title from the person.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher I find your remarks interesting, but I am not interested in converting to the Friends.

As I understand Friends worship is mostly silent and mental.

Besides having a decided tatse for the rituals and sacraments of the Catholic church, I had a bad stroke 6 years ago, and even before I had AADD. I cannot concentrate for more than a short period. IOW I am sorry but Quaker but worship would likely induce me to sleeep.

Friend, yes, much of our meeting for worship is conducted in the Living Silence as we seek to join with one another in the Presence in our midst. It is not rare for the whole meeting to be silent…usually however a Friend is led to offer vocal ministry as the Spirt of God leads or read a scripture…or a Friend is led to offer prayer or exhortation. All though rarer still is the Friend who is led to sing.

“Where two or three are gathered…” God it there ministering…so if you find the liturgical style of Catholic worship “speaking to your condition”…I would never expect you to change it…God leads us to where He wants us to be and to serve in the capacity we are called.

 

[Publisher]

Exactly! So apparently fulfillment does not equate into eradication or else we also would not have churches to worship in,Sunday Services,etc,etc,etc. If Christ eradicated it ALL then there would be no need for His Church or any religious ritual.

Again, it is not the eradication of ritual…but the fulfillment of all ritual requirements under the Law for the dispensing of salvic grace…grace is received in faith…not through the participation in a rite or ritual…we receive grace directly from the hand of God with no need of a human priest to mediate that grace.

 

[wmscott]

The instance I had in mind was a public Rosary being held in a church before Mass. There were 25-30 people present. The leader would read a short scripture and then recite a Hail Mary as if he were trying to get through it as fast as possible. So fast you could not tell what he was saying unless you knew what it was. The other people who said the “Holy Mary, Mother of God” part seemed more into it and were at least understandable.

I wouldn’t pretend to know what was in this person’s heart but if appearances mean anything, all he cared about was getting it done.

So you are basing this on the actions of ONE???

Not everyone is comfortable in front of a crowd, or at the podium, or in public speaking. Every Sunday in our parish we have a Rosary at 930AM, just before 10AM Mass. It may have been a situation that the leader was nervous and a poor judge of time, but whatever the reason they were PRAYING!!! Can’t you give them that?

I have a sense that because it was a Rosary, you have an issue with it. If not then I apologize, but you do not see folks accusing someone of saying the Our Father too fast, or the Sinners Prayer too fast, or any other prayer for that matter. It always seems to be something Catholic or that the Catholic him/herself that is wrong.

Look at it this way, you have 25-30 people who have approached the Throne of God and are praying. However imperfect you think it is, no matter what you think is a motive behind the leaders actions, these beautiful Christians are at His Throne praying to God. Yes they are sinners, yes they are weak, yes they are imperfect, but praise the Lord they are there praying. So why do you feel the need to find fault in it?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I realize you believe Jesus requires ritualistic expression in order to receive his grace…Friends do not.

Correction. Catholics believe Jesus may dispense His grace to whom He wills and in any way and at any time He chooses. But the sacraments are His usual way of conveying grace. We know know we will always encounter Him though the sacraments. We have His Word on it.

Friends first appeared in 17th century England. So as a Friend, you do not have the perspective of Catholics, who have been worshipping God in the same way, offering the same Sacrifice, and receiving His grace through the same sacraments, since the Apostles walked the earth.

 

[Publisher]

Don’t Quakers have ritual meals, prayers?

We have ‘pot lucks’…and there is usually a time before the meal where we offer our thanks for God’s bounty…usually done in silence.

A humuorus anectdote could be used to illistrate…A Quaker family was asked to Sunday dinner at a Baptist household…the man of the house asked the visiting Quaker gentleman to offer thanks before dinner…every one bowed their heads and a period of silence ensued…then the Quaker man said “Amen” and dinner was passed around…the Baptist leaned over after a time and said…“I didn’t hear what you saying during grace…”…the Quaker smiled and said…“That’s because I wasn’t talking to thee.”

We do offer vocal prayer when led to do so…they are “extemporaneous” with no set “prayer” which we use in public.

Prayer can be a ritual I guess…but must it be ritualistic to be prayer?

Again…it is not “ritual” but the “ritual requirements” the Law demanded that Christ fulfilled…by this we mean the “right words” the “right gestures” the “correct matter” being used…the “correct form” offered by a “priest” on or in the behalf of others for the receipt of salvic grace to be dispensed by God to the individual who is the recipient of the ‘ritual’ at the hands of a “priest”.

Christ IS our Priest…He is our Baptizer…He is the Living Bread…He is the Vine…He is the Door…He is the “All and All”…He is Truly Present in our midst…He is our Teacher and Guide…in Him all ritual requirements for the dispensing of grace has been fulfilled…we need no human mediator to stand in his stead to “offer” any sacrifice…He offered Himself once for all upon the cross and offers Himself before the Father continuously on our behalf.

I am not seeking to “convert” you to my position…I am explaining the position of Friends and WHY we do not practice “rituals” believed by other Christians to confer salvic grace.

 

[Publisher]

Correction. **Catholics believe Jesus may dispense His grace to whom He wills and in any way and at any time He chooses. ** But the sacraments are His usual way of conveying grace. We know know we will always encounter Him though the sacraments. We have His Word on it.

Friends first appeared in 17th century England. So as a Friend, you do not have the perspective of Catholics, who have been worshipping God in the same way, offering the same Sacrifice, and receiving His grace through the same sacraments, since the Apostles walked the earth.

On this we agree and as Friends we recieve His grace directly from Him…I understand that your position is that the “sacraments” are the “ususal way”…and I too believe you ALWAYS encounter Him through your sacraments…as through Him all grace is dispensed…we too recieve His grace and mercy in faith.

 

[ufamtobie]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

Mike, Does your family attend church every Sunday? If they do, is that not a ritual?

Ritual: Being part of an established routine:

Jesus said: Do this in memory of Me, This would be considered a ritual.

Jesus said: when you pray say the Our Father, the Our Father Prayer, is also a ritual Prayer. I say the Our Father Prayer ritually every day. Jesus Christ wants us to pray the Our Father Prayer when ever we pray and not only once in our life time so therefore it is a ritual prayer.

The Mass is all about: “Do this in memory of me” a ritual.

People just try to find things against the Church, in order to try, try justifying themselves but it is to no avail they are only hurting themselves.

"The meaning of the word ritual" is found in many places in the Bible and it is a good thing to do.

ufamtobie

 

[Jim_Dandy]

if you ask for specific scripture, I believe most would go to Matthew 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

This verse has nothing to do with ritual. Jesus is referring to “empty” or “vain” vocal prayer as practiced by the pagans (in some translations, Gentiles), who feared to omit from their prayer the name of even one god. Ancient pagans feared that if they did not invoke the numerous “correct” names and titles of their gods in their prayers, their fickle gods would not hear them. This Jesus called “meaningless (vain) repetition.”

If this were a condemnation of repetition itself, Jesus himself violated it when He prayed the same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemani. And He would not have taught the Apostles (and us) the Our Father (Lord’s Prayer), which – the second time it was said – would be repetitive. And He would tell the angels in heaven to cease who, “Day and night, do not stop exclaiming: holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was,and who is, and who is to come” Rev 4;8.

 

[TimothyH]

On this we agree and as Friends we recieve His grace directly from Him…I understand that your position is that the “sacraments” are the “ususal way”…and I too believe you ALWAYS encounter Him through your sacraments…as through Him all grace is dispensed…we too recieve His grace and mercy in faith.

Faith without the sacraments is not the equivalent of faith with the sacraments. Christ told us that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we have no life in us. It’s just that simple.

And as a matter of correction, all grace is dispensed from Christ through Mary by the working of the Holy Spirit.

-Tim-

 

[Publisher]

Faith without the sacraments is not the equivalent of faith with the sacraments. Christ told us that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we have no life in us. It’s just that simple.

And as a matter of correction, all grace is dispensed from Christ through Mary by the working of the Holy Spirit.

-Tim-

LOL…you and friend Jim should get together and coordinate…he didn’t mention Mary.

Since I do not share your faith tradition…I disagree…but then you knew we would.

 

[Nicea325]

Again, it is not the eradication of ritual…but the fulfillment of all ritual requirements under the Law for the dispensing of salvic grace…grace is received in faith…not through the participation in a rite or ritual…we receive grace directly from the hand of God with no need of a human priest to mediate that grace.

Requirements? Did not Jesus say: Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood you have no life in you.

That pretty much seems as a requirement for eternal life from the very mouth of God.

 

[Publisher]

Requirements? Did not Jesus say: Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood you have no life in you.

That pretty much seems as a requirement for eternal life from the very mouth of God.

Since your religious community understands that passage of scripture with that understanding…you probably should practice it’s rites and rituals to meet the requirements of eternal life you understand…it is not my understanding…nor my experience with God.

 

[SonCatcher]

A humuorus anectdote could be used to illistrate…A Quaker family was asked to Sunday dinner at a Baptist household…the man of the house asked the visiting Quaker gentleman to offer thanks before dinner…every one bowed their heads and a period of silence ensued…then the Quaker man said “Amen” and dinner was passed around…the Baptist leaned over after a time and said…“I didn’t hear what you saying during grace…”…the Quaker smiled and said…“That’s because I wasn’t talking to thee.”

That’s actually quite good.

Christ IS our Priest…He is our Baptizer…He is the Living Bread…He is the Vine…He is the Door…He is the “All and All”…He is Truly Present in our midst…He is our Teacher and Guide… in Him all ritual requirements for the dispensing of grace has been fulfilled… He offered Himself once for all upon the cross and offers Himself before the Father continuously on our behalf.

Indeed, that is the Catholic teaching, as well. Several of our rites clearly state they are Jesus’ actions, not those of the priest (who, properly speaking, is not a mediator). The “necessity” of the rite and sacrament stems from our human nature. We are both body and spirit; both are necessary parts of our humanity. We are not primarily bodies which have the circumstance of being ensouled. Nor are we primarily spiritual beings imprisoned in bodies.

Since we are body-spirits, it is inadequate to address us on one element of existence only. That is why God came to us bodily in the person of Jesus. That is why God gave us sacraments. He did that so we can experience Him in His fullness.

 

[Publisher]

That’s actually quite good.

Indeed, that is the Catholic teaching, as well. Several of our rites clearly state they are Jesus’ actions, not those of the priest (who, properly speaking, is not a mediator). The “necessity” of the rite and sacrament stems from our human nature. We are both body and spirit; both are necessary parts of our humanity. We are not primarily bodies which have the circumstance of being ensouled. Nor are we primarily spiritual beings imprisoned in bodies.

Since we are body-spirits, it is inadequate to address us on one element of existence only. That is why God came to us bodily in the person of Jesus. That is why God gave us sacraments. He did that so we can experience Him in His fullness.

We too have a “sacramental” understanding of our faith…we share His life by what we do…we live the life of Christ…we seek to share incarnation with Him…to be His Presence in our world…since we are “body-spirits” simply ministering to one’s spiritual needs is inadequate…“if a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?”

The “necessity” of ministering to real physical needs…and not just the spiritual is very necessary…so, while we minister to spiritual needs…ministering to the physical is of also utmost importance…we experience Him in His fullness when I wash my brother’s feet or feed the hungry in my midst…for they wear the face of Christ.

Life is the sacrament we all share…the “sacred” and the “secular” are not separated for Friends…each act of kindness…each loving word…is and carries sacramental importance.

On a side note…to your first statement…if one needs another flawed human being to “perform” a rite or ritual for or in our behalf…they by necessity becomes a “mediator”…as a Friend…I need no “mediator” to “confect” a “sacrament” for me…I have a Priest who has “confected” all I need already.

I do not find any “need” to perform a ritual for God’s astounding mercy and love to be poured out upon me…I honor your belief that you have a need for them in your religious affiliation…I have no desire to seek to move you from that spiritual center that ministers to you…but I find no solace in religious rites received from the hand of a very human and flawed priest…I need no one to “stand in the stead of Christ”…He is present with us already…we share in His priesthood as believers to minister to our world.

A difference in our understanding to be sure…but it is God’s grace and mercy we both receive at His hands…

 

[Nicea325]

Since your religious community understands that passage of scripture with that understanding…you probably should practice it’s rites and rituals to meet the requirements of eternal life you understand…it is not my understanding…nor my experience with God.

I beg your pardon? It is God (Jesus) who said those words,what is there one cannot comprehend? Sadly,the Jews who left pretty much preceded your path-no offense.

 

[Publisher]

I beg your pardon? It is God (Jesus) who said those words,what is there one cannot comprehend? Sadly,the Jews who left pretty much preceded your path-no offense.

No offense taken friend, if on the Last Day I find I was wrong…I will throw myself on the mercy and love of God in Christ…and I will accept in faith and trust whatever comes from His Hands…He knows my heart…He sees rightly and deals justly…I am in Good Hands.

Consider me “invincilbly ignorant”