The Bible Forbids Rituals?

[mike_braman]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

 

[regression]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

Welcome to the forums.

Have you asked for the chapter and verse that says rituals are forbidden?

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

When I was a child many years ago, I used to attend a Pentecostal service alongside Mass for a brief while. So I think I’m safe in answering.

Some Protestants would argue that the Bible doesn’t explicitly forbid ritual, but it’s very implicit almost to the point of being explicit. They would say this is more the case in the New Testament than the Old Testament. When condemned by the Pharisees for healing the sick on the Sabbath, Jesus responded, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27). What the Pharisees had done was that they followed the Law harshly; they imposed the Law on others simply for the sake of it being imposed. Indeed, Jesus says in another Gospel that “They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them” (Matthew 23:3). What we find in Scripture is that an emerging “revolution” taking place - the Old Testament was filled with ritual and external practices and we find in the New Testament that what really matters is what is in the heart. Peter had the famous vision that allowed him to not keep the dietary laws, for the Gospels say: “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean’” (Matthew 15:11).

Incidentally, I think the Protestants are right on this one. However, their criticism is more applicable to Traditionalist Catholicism than Catholicism in general. I always had one problem with Traditionalist Spirituality, and that was their primary focus on external piety (chapel veils, strict dress codes, genuflection, etc). Whilst I was a Catholic, one man recommended I should try the TLM. My response was that I didn’t want to go because of all the unnecessary dogmas and rules, that do not result in the refinement of your character but instead on how you are perceived in the sight of others. So the Protestants are correct in this regard, although it’s more appropriate to refer to Traditionalist spirituality than mainstream Catholicism.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

When I was a child many years ago, I used to attend a Pentecostal service alongside Mass for a brief while. So I think I’m safe in answering.

Some Protestants would argue that the Bible doesn’t explicitly forbid ritual, but it’s very implicit almost to the point of being explicit. They would say this is more the case in the New Testament than the Old Testament. When condemned by the Pharisees for healing the sick on the Sabbath, Jesus responded, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27). What the Pharisees had done was that they followed the Law harshly; they imposed the Law on others simply for the sake of it being imposed. Indeed, Jesus says in another Gospel that “They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them” (Matthew 23:3). What we find in Scripture is that an emerging “revolution” taking place - the Old Testament was filled with ritual and external practices and we find in the New Testament that what really matters is what is in the heart. Peter had the famous vision that allowed him to not keep the dietary laws, for the Gospels say: “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean’” (Matthew 15:11).

Incidentally, I think the Protestants are right on this one. However, their criticism is more applicable to Traditionalist Catholicism than Catholicism in general. I always had one problem with Traditionalist Spirituality, and that was their primary focus on external piety (chapel veils, strict dress codes, genuflection, etc). Whilst I was a Catholic, one man recommended I should try the TLM. My response was that I didn’t want to go because of all the unnecessary dogmas and rules, that do not result in the refinement of your character but instead on how you are perceived in the sight of others. So the Protestants are correct in this regard, although it’s more appropriate to refer to Traditionalist spirituality than mainstream Catholicism.

Bohm, not aware we Kneel, Bow, Women wear Veils because those, like everything Catholic are In the Bible: “Thou Shalt Bend Thy Knee”, etc., etc. The Church is All Bible and earliest Tradition. All 7 Sacraments are In the Bible; The Mass is all Bible also.

 

[ltwin]

Bohm, not aware we Kneel, Bow, Women wear Veils because those, like everything Catholic are In the Bible: “Thou Shalt Bend Thy Knee”, etc., etc. The Church is All Bible and earliest Tradition. All 7 Sacraments are In the Bible; The Mass is all Bible also.

Pentecostals kneel too. Some of us lay face down on the floor during the worship service. Protestants are not against all those things in and of themselves. We are against ritual for rituals sake alone. A ritual only has merit and benefit if it brings someone closer to God, but that is determined by the heart of the person. It is not the ritual itself that does it. And furthermore, Protestants would have a problem being told that rituals not in the Bible must be included in Christian worship.

 

[Nicea325]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

The Bible also forbids divisions and yet why are there so many denominations? Where does the Bible advocate divisions?

 

[JustaServant]

I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

Some of the most ritualistic people I ever met were Baptists.

Typical service:
Greeting
Opening hymn
Announcments
2nd hymn
Offering
3rd hymn
Sermon
Invitation hymn
Dismissal
Closing hymn

 

[Tyuiop411]

Some of the most ritualistic people I ever met were Baptists.

Typical service:
Greeting
Opening hymn
Announcments
2nd hymn
Offering
3rd hymn
Sermon
Invitation hymn
Dismissal
Closing hymn

Aah, The infamous “Hymn Sandwich”. I’ve met people that say they would be bored at Mass because it’s always the same, but when you point out that they’re church is pretty much the same they tend to get real quiet.

 

[puzzleannie]

so Jesus was wrong when he established ritual at the Last Supper? guess he did not get the memo

 

[CompSciGuy]

Incidentally, I think the Protestants are right on this one. However, their criticism is more applicable to Traditionalist Catholicism than Catholicism in general. I always had one problem with Traditionalist Spirituality, and that was their primary focus on external piety (chapel veils, strict dress codes, genuflection, etc). Whilst I was a Catholic, one man recommended I should try the TLM. My response was that I didn’t want to go because of all the unnecessary dogmas and rules, that do not result in the refinement of your character but instead on how you are perceived in the sight of others. So the Protestants are correct in this regard, although it’s more appropriate to refer to Traditionalist spirituality than mainstream Catholicism.

I agree with you here; a lot of times I have heard Traditionalists disgruntle themselves over things like kneeling during communion (some actually say that you receive “more grace” if you take communion while kneeling than while standing) and looking down on women who don’t wear veils, lamenting the holding of hands during the Our Father (really, is this such a terrible thing?), insisting that the mass be said in Latin and everyone should follow along in their English missal (why??) etc. These are the ones who memorize the General Instruction for the Roman Missal and wait to spring on the first person who breaks the smallest rule. All obsessions with the external. I can see how this is very much like the Pharisees.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Do Protestants know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings? And that the Catholic Church formed the Bible? And that the Church is about 350 years older than the Bible? Do they know where we got the Bible? How many Catholics know?

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

Do the OP’s Protestant relatives know that the Mass grew out of the rituals used in the synagogue? The Passover meal – the Lord’s Supper – was a highly ritualistic sedar meal at which Jesus Christ presided.

A little knowledge of history is helpful for all of us.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Some of the most ritualistic people I ever met were Baptists.

Typical service:
Greeting
Opening hymn
Announcments
2nd hymn
Offering
3rd hymn
Sermon
Invitation hymn
Dismissal
Closing hymn

Is this the worship format of the early Christians? No! Read the first-century Didache, paragraphs 9 and 10, and St. Justin Martyr’s First Apology (A.D. 155), paragraphs 61-67. The Mass was the earliest form of Christian worship.

And by “Invitation Hymn” in the above list is meant the very unbiblical 19th century “altar call.”

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Nicea325]

Do Protestants know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings? And that the Catholic Church formed the Bible? And that the Church is about 350 years older than the Bible? Do they know where we got the Bible? How many Catholics know?

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

Do the OP’s Protestant relatives know that the Mass grew out of the rituals used in the synagogue? The Passover meal – the Lord’s Supper – was a highly ritualistic sedar meal at which Jesus Christ presided.

A little knowledge of history is helpful for all of us.

Exactly Jim! Likewise, I find the belief by Protestants that the Bible forbids rituals actually contradictory? Well isn’t life in general full of rituals?

 

[Nicea325]

Is this the worship format of the early Christians? No! Read the first-century Didache, paragraphs 9 and 10, and St. Justin Martyr’s First Apology (A.D. 155), paragraphs 61-67. The Mass was the earliest form of Christian worship.

And by “Invitation Hymn” in the above list is meant the very unbiblical 19th century “altar call.”

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

Yes the famous altar call,yet most of the time there is no altar?

 

[Zenas]

Bohym Bawerk got it about right with his explanation. However, if you ask for specific scripture, I believe most would go to Matthew 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

 

[Nicea325]

Bohym Bawerk got it about right with his explanation. However, if you ask for specific scripture, I believe most would go to Matthew 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

If you are stating repeating prayers is wrong,then you too are incorrect. Even my NKJV Study Bible states repeating parayers is not wrong because Himself does it in the garden.

 

[PJM]

=mike braman;8378420]I would like to have a Protestant response. My Protestant family members tell me that the bible forbids rituals and that is one reason that they won’t go to a Catholic Mass with me. Can anyone tell me where it says that in the Bible? Unlike some Catholics I have read the complete Bible many times and do not recall finding this anywhere. Thanks for your help so that I may understand my family better.

In Gods Name I Pray

You can’t recall finding it in the bible because it’s not there God Himself commands the Passover, and other jewish rituals are replete throughout the OT. ASK THEM For the proof of there claims; BUT DO SO WITH EXTREME CHARITY:thumbsup:

God Bless you AND THEM!
Pat

 

[Zenas]

If you are stating repeating prayers is wrong,then you too are incorrect. Even my NKJV Study Bible states repeating parayers is not wrong because Himself does it in the garden.

I’m just saying this is the scripture you will probably get it you ask for specific quotations. Another might be where Jesus told the Samaritan woman that the hour is coming and now is when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

You are absolutely right about scripture having examples of repeating prayers. Matthew tells us explicitly that Jesus prayed three times to “let this cup pass from me.” The same is implied in Mark. We also have Paul who in 2 Corinthians asks the Lord three times to remove the thorn in his flesh. Paul also told the Thessalonians to pray without ceasing. Finally we see the four creatures of Revelation 4 singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” day and night without ceasing.

So repetitious prayers are not the problem. It’s the meaningless repetition that we are to avoid. Right now the best example I can think of would be the Rosary. I hear Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Simonetta on EWTN radio and their recitation of the Rosary is a heartfelt prayer. On the other hand, I have seen people go through the Rosary with no apparent purpose but to say it as fast as they can and finish as soon as possible. That seems to me like meaningless repetition.

 

[JustaServant]

So repetitious prayers are not the problem. It’s the meaningless repetition that we are to avoid. Right now the best example I can think of would be the Rosary. I hear Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Simonetta on EWTN radio and their recitation of the Rosary is a heartfelt prayer. On the other hand, I have seen people go through the Rosary with no apparent purpose but to say it as fast as they can and finish as soon as possible. That seems to me like meaningless repetition.

Bold mine.
So you can judge hearts?

 

[wmscott]

If you are stating repeating prayers is wrong,then you too are incorrect. Even my NKJV Study Bible states repeating parayers is not wrong because Himself does it in the garden.

Matthew 6:7 “And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words”.

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary: (LINK)

Ver. 7. Long prayer is not here forbidden; for Christ himself spent whole nights in prayer: and he sayeth, we must pray always; and the apostle, that we must pray without intermission, 1 Thessalonians v.; and the holy Church hath had from the beginning her canonical hours for prayer, but rhetorical and elaborate prayer, as if we thought to persuade God by our eloquence, is forbidden; the collects of the Church are most brief and most effectual. (St. Augustine, ep. 121. chap. viii, ix, x.) (Bristow) — Perseverance in prayer is recommended us by the example of the poor widow, who by her importunity prevailed over the unjust judge. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xix.) — The Greek word means, to babble or trifle.

Bold & Underline mine.