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Protestant101
Guest
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If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken: (Douay Rheims Bible, 1899 Version)
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joe370
Guest
I wish someone (non-catholic) would respond to Lilyflower’s post!!! However I won’t hold my breath.
It amazes me the allegation that Mt 16:19 was intended for everyone and not just the CC. Now if that is correct then every New Age Movement including Secular quaisi -believers could equally claim succession of Christ’s authority on earth.
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joe370
Guest
The Bible is Catholic…
We do not have any of the original manuscripts of the books that have been included in the Bible. All we have is copies of copies. Most of the original manuscripts of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, although a few chapters of Ezra and Daniel were recorded in Aramaic, the language of Jesus. The books of the New Testament were first written in Greek. Without the original manuscripts we as Christians have no choice, other than to accept the books collected, selected, assembled, edited and finally codified by the C.C.— and if you trust the church with this daunting task, you should trust her on other matters as well; after all she is being guided by the Holy Spirit, according to the bible.
Someone here at Catholic Answers Forums recently posed the question: could Christianity survive without the Bible?
What if the Bible suddenly disappeared from our world? What would happen if we as Christians in general, could no longer read the bible? What would our faith become? Could it survive? From a Catholic perspective, it would be effortless considering the fact that within the library of the C.C. we find 95% of the bible well preserved in the writings of the church fathers through every century. From a Protestant (sola scriptura) perspective, the task becomes almost insurmountable without returning to the Catholic Apostolic Church. That notwithstanding, I think the real problem in the world today is the total disregard for the apostolic church established by Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago. According to the bible (any version) Jesus built a church on Peter, the apostles and prophets, with Him as the Divine cornerstone; promised that church that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide them in their journey, and it was a promise of perpetuity, “John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.” Jesus’ church is to be one. The H.S. = Truth and we all know truth is not relative! The unity of Christ’s Church refers to the need for the Church to be undivided. There are to be no divisions among the members of the Church. It is to be one! For the Church to be one with Christ it must first maintain unity with itself. This puts the protestant churches, stemming from the 16th century in a bit of a bind! This aspect stems from Christ’s remarks to the same point —one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16 —it is to be holy! The sanctity of Christ’s Church is derived from the fact that it is Christ’s church. “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,” Matthew 16:18 —Since the Church was established by Christ, it is holy. This does not mean that the members of the Church are free from sin, neither than that the institution of the Church cannot sin. However, in spite of her very human shortcomings, Jesus still loves, supports and guides His Church. —It is to be catholic! The universality of Jesus’ Church establishes the Church as being open to all: all races, both sexes, all nationalities. Christ refuses no one from His Grace; therefore, the Church cannot refuse anyone as long as they accept Christ’s teachings which are spelled out in His Church. "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Matthew 28:18-20 Christ sent His apostles to preach to the whole world - to all mankind. The catholicity of the Church also refers to the fact that the Church is the same everywhere (universal). In every land, with every people, the Church maintains the same beliefs (this unity is lost to the protestant churches).—and finally it is to be apostolic!!! The Church is apostolic, handed down from Jesus through the Apostles to mankind. The criteria for the true Apostolic Church is that she comes directly from Christ and can be traced back through history to show that those who lead the Church were commissioned to do so by the Apostles, who were in turn commissioned by Christ. “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.” Ephesians 2:19-20 All protestant churches can only trace their descent to a mere man!
We do not have any of the original manuscripts of the books that have been included in the Bible. All we have is copies of copies. Most of the original manuscripts of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, although a few chapters of Ezra and Daniel were recorded in Aramaic, the language of Jesus. The books of the New Testament were first written in Greek. Without the original manuscripts we as Christians have no choice, other than to accept the books collected, selected, assembled, edited and finally codified by the C.C.— and if you trust the church with this daunting task, you should trust her on other matters as well; after all she is being guided by the Holy Spirit, according to the bible.
Someone here at Catholic Answers Forums recently posed the question: could Christianity survive without the Bible?
What if the Bible suddenly disappeared from our world? What would happen if we as Christians in general, could no longer read the bible? What would our faith become? Could it survive? From a Catholic perspective, it would be effortless considering the fact that within the library of the C.C. we find 95% of the bible well preserved in the writings of the church fathers through every century. From a Protestant (sola scriptura) perspective, the task becomes almost insurmountable without returning to the Catholic Apostolic Church. That notwithstanding, I think the real problem in the world today is the total disregard for the apostolic church established by Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago. According to the bible (any version) Jesus built a church on Peter, the apostles and prophets, with Him as the Divine cornerstone; promised that church that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide them in their journey, and it was a promise of perpetuity, “John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.” Jesus’ church is to be one. The H.S. = Truth and we all know truth is not relative! The unity of Christ’s Church refers to the need for the Church to be undivided. There are to be no divisions among the members of the Church. It is to be one! For the Church to be one with Christ it must first maintain unity with itself. This puts the protestant churches, stemming from the 16th century in a bit of a bind! This aspect stems from Christ’s remarks to the same point —one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16 —it is to be holy! The sanctity of Christ’s Church is derived from the fact that it is Christ’s church. “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,” Matthew 16:18 —Since the Church was established by Christ, it is holy. This does not mean that the members of the Church are free from sin, neither than that the institution of the Church cannot sin. However, in spite of her very human shortcomings, Jesus still loves, supports and guides His Church. —It is to be catholic! The universality of Jesus’ Church establishes the Church as being open to all: all races, both sexes, all nationalities. Christ refuses no one from His Grace; therefore, the Church cannot refuse anyone as long as they accept Christ’s teachings which are spelled out in His Church. "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Matthew 28:18-20 Christ sent His apostles to preach to the whole world - to all mankind. The catholicity of the Church also refers to the fact that the Church is the same everywhere (universal). In every land, with every people, the Church maintains the same beliefs (this unity is lost to the protestant churches).—and finally it is to be apostolic!!! The Church is apostolic, handed down from Jesus through the Apostles to mankind. The criteria for the true Apostolic Church is that she comes directly from Christ and can be traced back through history to show that those who lead the Church were commissioned to do so by the Apostles, who were in turn commissioned by Christ. “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.” Ephesians 2:19-20 All protestant churches can only trace their descent to a mere man!
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joe370
Guest
If we look back to the faith of the first Christians, we come across an amazing fact: they didn’t have any scriptures to sustain their beliefs. The Gospels were written roughly 60 years after the Church was established. The New Testament wasn’t canonized until the end of the 4th century and the Old Testament wasn’t canonized in its present form until AD93. This must mean that the first Christians established their faith on maintaining their relationship with Jesus Christ through the preaching and edification of the apostles and their chosen disciples via the imposition of hands through every century. No other church(s) can make this distinction. The apostolic church via the apostles themselves and apostolic tradition, upon their demise was the medium through which all who chose, could grow closer to Jesus Christ. By becoming part of the Apostolic Church, the House of the Living God, which is Jesus’ Mystical Body with Jesus as the Head over all and through all. Christ warned His disciples that they would be persecuted as His followers because “the world hated Me”, yet before His ascension He promised the apostolic church the “Comforter” meaning the Holy Spirit, and said He would be with them “forever.” The truth the church taught, even unto death, has stood the test of time. (Mt. 28-19) Again—Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
(Mk. 16-15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH the gospel to every creature.
(Mk 16-20) - And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The man-made doctrine of sola scriptura cannot be found ANYWHERE in the bible. The apostles did not read from the New Testament, which was yet to be written, instead they taught by “word of mouth.” Jesus was God in the flesh, was crucified for the remission of sin, was raised on the third day, is sitting at the right hand of God, and will come again to judge the world. The disciples of the early church and their members held fast to these beliefs and went forth with confidence to preach the Gospel. As a result of professing the Good News, many were condemned to death. According to the Greek historian, Clemens Alexandrinus, as James the Great was lead to his death his accuser was so moved by his courage and faith that he fell at his feet, accepted Christ, and requested a pardon for James or else martyrdom for himself. Both were beheaded. Of course most protestants will simply say, it’s not in the bible so they don’t matter; so sad!
(Mk. 16-15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH the gospel to every creature.
(Mk 16-20) - And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The man-made doctrine of sola scriptura cannot be found ANYWHERE in the bible. The apostles did not read from the New Testament, which was yet to be written, instead they taught by “word of mouth.” Jesus was God in the flesh, was crucified for the remission of sin, was raised on the third day, is sitting at the right hand of God, and will come again to judge the world. The disciples of the early church and their members held fast to these beliefs and went forth with confidence to preach the Gospel. As a result of professing the Good News, many were condemned to death. According to the Greek historian, Clemens Alexandrinus, as James the Great was lead to his death his accuser was so moved by his courage and faith that he fell at his feet, accepted Christ, and requested a pardon for James or else martyrdom for himself. Both were beheaded. Of course most protestants will simply say, it’s not in the bible so they don’t matter; so sad!
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joe370
Guest
These early Christians were embolden to face horribly deaths in the name of Jesus Christ, unlike anyone in our contemporary world, and that was because of the exemplary examples of the early church leaders, not the bible, starting with the apostles! The deaths of the apostles and those who shared the same fate in the early church (which is the C.C.–if anyone disagrees, please prove it) should provide a reference point for all Christians today. Our faith may not be tested by such extreme means, yet, as disciples and members of the 21st century apostolic church, not unlike the disciples and the members of the 1st century apostolic church, we should all be encouraged to be a part of the church established by Jesus Christ circa AD33, which has been preaching the the same Gospel that the fledgling apostolic church did, drawing people from all walks of life to the fullness of Christ. “Now, our life is precious because we possess the fullness of Christ in matters of our own redemption of life. “And he (Christ) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors, and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” Ephesus 4:11-13 Their (first Christians) reality of faith depended upon their connection to Jesus’ established church (not mere words written on a scroll of papyrus) which flew on the wings of the Divine Holy Spirit, through every century and will continue to do so until Jesus’ second coming, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat. — and we, like those first Christians can embrace, and rely on the fullness of Christ, but first we must embrace His church. “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” If Saint Paul wasn’t referring to the C.C. --which church was he referring to? Ephesians 1:22-23 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word (the word is not the bible in this context, for it didn’t exist yet), and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. Ephesians 5:25-31
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joe370
Guest
I’m in no way minimizing the importance of the Bible, after all it is the product of the C.C. I’m simply illustrating the inviolable necessity of Jesus’ Apostolic Church. The Bible is very important as a guide book for how we ought to live our lives, but in the end it will not be our knowledge of scripture that will get us into heaven. It will be our living, day-to-day relationship with Christ that will secure our salvation, and the most efficacious way to secure salvation is to visit Jesus often, in His Fathers House, the House of the Living God, the Mystical Body of Christ and the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and of course all these verses apply to the Apostolic Church according to the bible. He is the Eternal Word of God – the true Word that is alive, dynamic, and everlasting. Jesus is not someone who is confined to the pages of history, nor is He a mere character in a holy book. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in whom our faith abides and through whom Christianity survives; we have a shot at eternal bliss because of the selfless sacrifice Jesus made for us at calvary. The church is the reason this incredible gift of salvation is known throughout the entire world! If Jesus would have established a bible as the sole authority and purveyor of truth, with the Holy Spirit guiding each individual to share that same truth, (everyone on the same page so to speak) then I would embrace the bible, however this is not the case according to the bible, and the disunity, division and dissension within Christianity, three things strongly frowned upon in the bible, clearly prove my point. The scriptures, safeguarded by the church for 1500 years, preserving the unity and oneness, the crux of the New Testament —“are a shadow of the things that were to come,” and as Paul would say, “the reality, however, is found in Christ, who’s Mystical Body is the Church.” I believe the following passage, 1 Corinthians 13:12 is the best way to describe our relationship with Jesus, with faith in this world as the impetus to the next; after all Jesus did say, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29
“Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12
Books will one day turn to dust, and even our computers will become redundant and decay, but the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, will never pass away.
We should always forever thank Jesus Christ for establishing His church to safeguard the scriptures and for the many things with which they teach us about HIM, about HIS messages, and about HIS mighty deeds. These sacred words bring us closer to HIM, but they are not the source of our salvation. Only Jesus’’ Spirit can connect us to God, and the Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus, to His apostolic church, and no other, and Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with the apostolic church “forever.” Only Jesus’ power can restore us to His favor and He chose His church, which is His Body, to carry on the mantle, He started. In the interim, Jesus’ Apostolic Church was to be Jesus’ medium through which all, who choose, can grow closer to Him by entering the Church, HIS FATHERS HOME, which is again, Jesus’ Mystical Body with Jesus as the Head over all and all. Jesus’ established Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, where we can become one with the Trinity as we partake of the sacraments and hear the wonderful words of salvation (the Bible) via the Apostles, Jesus’ chosen vessels. I’ve been told by protestants that church is where the heart is, (implication being that it is invisible). However, I believe in a very visible church as illustrated in the bible. I believe that home is where the heart is, and if the church is the temporal Home of the Living God, and it is according to the bible, then that is where all hearts should dwell. It just stands to reason, if we visit Jesus often in His Fathers Home, then our true home in Heaven, once we pass from this life to the next, will be Divinely seamless!
Our ultimate goal in life should be to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, “Love thy neighbor as thyself,” and if we wholeheartedly achieve this (artifice is not an option, for God knows what’s in our hearts even before we do) then God’s celestial Home will be only a heart beat away.
Let us all pray for unity…
God bless…
“Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12
Books will one day turn to dust, and even our computers will become redundant and decay, but the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, will never pass away.
We should always forever thank Jesus Christ for establishing His church to safeguard the scriptures and for the many things with which they teach us about HIM, about HIS messages, and about HIS mighty deeds. These sacred words bring us closer to HIM, but they are not the source of our salvation. Only Jesus’’ Spirit can connect us to God, and the Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus, to His apostolic church, and no other, and Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with the apostolic church “forever.” Only Jesus’ power can restore us to His favor and He chose His church, which is His Body, to carry on the mantle, He started. In the interim, Jesus’ Apostolic Church was to be Jesus’ medium through which all, who choose, can grow closer to Him by entering the Church, HIS FATHERS HOME, which is again, Jesus’ Mystical Body with Jesus as the Head over all and all. Jesus’ established Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, where we can become one with the Trinity as we partake of the sacraments and hear the wonderful words of salvation (the Bible) via the Apostles, Jesus’ chosen vessels. I’ve been told by protestants that church is where the heart is, (implication being that it is invisible). However, I believe in a very visible church as illustrated in the bible. I believe that home is where the heart is, and if the church is the temporal Home of the Living God, and it is according to the bible, then that is where all hearts should dwell. It just stands to reason, if we visit Jesus often in His Fathers Home, then our true home in Heaven, once we pass from this life to the next, will be Divinely seamless!
Our ultimate goal in life should be to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, “Love thy neighbor as thyself,” and if we wholeheartedly achieve this (artifice is not an option, for God knows what’s in our hearts even before we do) then God’s celestial Home will be only a heart beat away.
Let us all pray for unity…
God bless…
P
Protestant101
Guest
So far, you have made many protracted and emotionally charged claims about this, however, you have added nothing that proves the claim that the Bible is Catholic; and when you say “Let us pray for unity,” all you mean is submission to the Pope. That’s not “unity.”I’m in no way minimizing the importance of the Bible, after all it is the product of the C.C.
Let us all pray for unity…
God bless…
You and others in this thread have done nothing but minimize the Bible’s authority, comparing it constantly to what you say is the over-riding authority of the Church; but no Church has a leg to stand on without the Bible:
Churches whose leaders condone ignoring of certain aspects of verse 44 above will always try to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration, saying that the Bible only reflects the Word of God, but Protestants cannot concede any other than the fact that it is actually equal to the Word of God; it is His holy Word, over which there is no higher authority on Earth.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
P101
“Truth is often the opposite of the allegation…”
Jesus does not do what the Church says; the Church does what Jesus saysScriptura sui ipsius interpres
and Jesus says: whoever sins you forgive they will be forgiven.
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven.
now did you get this one?
even so. if the Church does what Jesus says, then you are in disobedience to the Jesus. because you dissobey His Church.
***“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… ***
“Truth is often the opposite of the allegation…”
Jesus does not do what the Church says; the Church does what Jesus saysScriptura sui ipsius interpres
and Jesus says: whoever sins you forgive they will be forgiven.
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven.
now did you get this one?
even so. if the Church does what Jesus says, then you are in disobedience to the Jesus. because you dissobey His Church.
***“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… ***
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JRKH
Guest
Protestant101, You are an intelligent and well spoken person. One who values truth and, I believe, earnestly seeks after it. I respect that and wish you fortune and blessings on your path. Keep seeking and keep asking.
In all honesty, if the information posted here, historical, biblical, rational, and logical are not enough to demonstrate the source and authority of the Bible through the Church, then nothing more we can say likely will. You really have put your finger on the problem in your statement above. The issue is one of authority. Your protestant view absolutely forbids you to submit to the authority of Rome or, indeed, any other authority except “The Bible”.
I will offer no other “proof” in summary than this. The Catholic Church, even with splitting into eastern and western churches, has retained a Huge degree of similarity in doctrine, teaching, tradition, ritual, and liturgy. Both east and west can claim truly legitimate and varifiable apostolic succession. Can the SS Protestant Churches from the Reformation down to today make the same claims? Has the Holy Spirit truly inspired so many different and conflicting interpretations? Are you really that sure that the most ancient and largest of the Christian Churches got it so wrong?
So which is more important, the leg upon which we stand or the head and heart that the leg holds up?
The Truth is that we do stand upon the Bible - Upon the bible and so much more. We stand upon the writings of the men trained by the apostles, by the traditions handed down and the teaching authority of the Magisterium which prevents the sort of fracturing that the Protestant movement has fallen victim too.
I’m sorry that you feel we are minimizing the bible’s authority. In truth it is we who feel that the Protestant SS doctrine over-rates the Bible’s authority. The Bible is THE source and core “go-to” document for the Church. As catholics we read and study the Bible, but we do so in the light of what has been taught by the Church consistantly down through the centuries. It is truly unfortunate that so many protestants are deprived of this rich and full deposit of faith simply because it was written by “Catholics”.
The Church never said that the Bible “Reflects” the Word of God. I cannot address the issue of any indiviual making such a statement.
The Bible is the Word of God and is held and taught as such by The Church.
However it is critical to understand the difference between the word of God and The Word of God.
The Bible does indeed contain the word of God, but Jesus is THE Word of God. No book, or volume can contain all that that Word Is. That Word, that is Jesus, founded, not a book, but a Church. That Word Jesus, promised to always be with That Church.
Peace
James
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joe370
Guest
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joe370
Guest
Almost all agree on who decided what books belong in the Bible and what books didn’t. The Catholic Church thoroughly examined all the books that were in question to be used in the New Testament and it was the Catholic Church that decided what books were inspired and what books were not. Catholic monks spent their lives copying scripture over and over again until printing was developed in 1440 AD. So this means that for over 1,400 years the Church taught the members by tradition. Even after the invention of printing, it was far too expensive for every member of a household to own a Bible. Times were much different then, economically speaking. However with gas prices escalating at an ever increasing rate, we might be running into a similar problem. John Gutenberg printed the first edition of the Catholic Bible. It wasn’t until 1534, that Luther’s translation of the Bible appeared, which gave way to a more inexpensive bible. If God wanted the bible to be His sole authority, His vehicle for promulgating the word of God, why did wait so long to create John Gutenberg?
Prot. 101, Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only authority? It doesn’t! Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only source of information available to a Christian! As a matter of fact, the Bible states that we must look to the Church for the proper interpretation. The big question in everyone’s mind should be, WHICH CHURCH, AND THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL JOURNEY??? “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13 After all, the Bible cannot interpret itself, can it? Lets see what the bible has to say about authority and decision making, even though common sense tells me a mere collection of books can’t claim to be the infallible word of God by the Word Himself, without (a) the Word Himself telling me directly to my face or (b) telling a few select men, by “word, or our epistle” who would then pass on God’s message of salvation for men and women to their disciples through every century until the Word’s second coming. According to your bible God chose option (b).
(Acts 1-8) - But ye shall receive power (the apostolic church), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye (not the bible, although it is the church’s established, written benchmark for truth) shall be witnesses (a thing without a person can not be a living witness) unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. When decisions had to be made in the early Church, a council, along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was gathered to decide crucial questions that needed to be answered.
(Acts 15:1-2) - When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain other of them should go to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this questions (this verse shows that Council did not use scripture to settle this difference)
(Acts 16:4) - As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem so the churches (not the bible) were strengthened in the faith and they increased in numbers daily.
We all agree that unity was one of Jesus’ major concerns. Just before he died, he prayed for the oneness of all who believed in him. We all agree that Paul taught the churches to reject division and to accept oneness. We all agree that the church in the New Testament period suffered terribly from problems created by an absence of unity. We all agree that the church today suffers terrible problems created by the absence of unity.
Prot. 101, Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only authority? It doesn’t! Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only source of information available to a Christian! As a matter of fact, the Bible states that we must look to the Church for the proper interpretation. The big question in everyone’s mind should be, WHICH CHURCH, AND THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL JOURNEY??? “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13 After all, the Bible cannot interpret itself, can it? Lets see what the bible has to say about authority and decision making, even though common sense tells me a mere collection of books can’t claim to be the infallible word of God by the Word Himself, without (a) the Word Himself telling me directly to my face or (b) telling a few select men, by “word, or our epistle” who would then pass on God’s message of salvation for men and women to their disciples through every century until the Word’s second coming. According to your bible God chose option (b).
(Acts 1-8) - But ye shall receive power (the apostolic church), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye (not the bible, although it is the church’s established, written benchmark for truth) shall be witnesses (a thing without a person can not be a living witness) unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. When decisions had to be made in the early Church, a council, along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was gathered to decide crucial questions that needed to be answered.
(Acts 15:1-2) - When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain other of them should go to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this questions (this verse shows that Council did not use scripture to settle this difference)
(Acts 16:4) - As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem so the churches (not the bible) were strengthened in the faith and they increased in numbers daily.
We all agree that unity was one of Jesus’ major concerns. Just before he died, he prayed for the oneness of all who believed in him. We all agree that Paul taught the churches to reject division and to accept oneness. We all agree that the church in the New Testament period suffered terribly from problems created by an absence of unity. We all agree that the church today suffers terrible problems created by the absence of unity.
J
joe370
Guest
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think your answer to this disunity would go something like this:* If we are to make meaningful progress in preserving the oneness that God in Christ gave us, we must allow the Bible to teach us what God and Christ do for everyone of us when, in faith, we are baptized into Christ. We must allow the New Testament to teach us the concept of unity.*
However as you can see, when the concept of unity is derived from the bible alone (the word of God, guided by the Word), we split, separate, and divide, revealing that something is seriously wrong with the concept of sola srcriptura. But then again I am still not sure if you are even a sola scriptura advocate, considering the fact that you belong to the seventh- day adventist church?
Since the bible clearly tells me that the bible (the word of God, again guided by the Word or the Trinity) is not a self-interpretive collection of books and the sole authority on all matters of faith and morals, where can I go to find this authoritative teacher/interpreter?
Certainly Jesus is at the forefront, for He is GOD. However, He did leave this world and appointed men to carry on His mantle, even though, as GOD, this wasn’t necessary; it was His Divine choice foreshadowed in the O.T.! Jesus chose His Apostolic Church (not a collection of books) comprised of mere fallible men (Matthew 16:18) to go out and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, via the infallible Holy Spirit (a.k.a. the Trinity). They, according to the bible were to pick up where Jesus left off, but knowing full well that Jesus would always be with them in Spirit, in spite of what Paul says: "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard*! Acts 20:28-31
The pivotal question is: do you think that one of the many protestant churches in the world today is the long lost Apostolic authoritative Church established by Jesus circa 33AD, that was to go out and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, or do you believe the church(s) is a non-issue, of no real significance? If so, then Jesus built a church in vain (Matthew 16:18) and did in fact leave His Church “orphans” for a new authority —the bible. However the bible tells us that nothing will supplant His establshed church!*
However as you can see, when the concept of unity is derived from the bible alone (the word of God, guided by the Word), we split, separate, and divide, revealing that something is seriously wrong with the concept of sola srcriptura. But then again I am still not sure if you are even a sola scriptura advocate, considering the fact that you belong to the seventh- day adventist church?
Since the bible clearly tells me that the bible (the word of God, again guided by the Word or the Trinity) is not a self-interpretive collection of books and the sole authority on all matters of faith and morals, where can I go to find this authoritative teacher/interpreter?
Certainly Jesus is at the forefront, for He is GOD. However, He did leave this world and appointed men to carry on His mantle, even though, as GOD, this wasn’t necessary; it was His Divine choice foreshadowed in the O.T.! Jesus chose His Apostolic Church (not a collection of books) comprised of mere fallible men (Matthew 16:18) to go out and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, via the infallible Holy Spirit (a.k.a. the Trinity). They, according to the bible were to pick up where Jesus left off, but knowing full well that Jesus would always be with them in Spirit, in spite of what Paul says: "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard*! Acts 20:28-31
The pivotal question is: do you think that one of the many protestant churches in the world today is the long lost Apostolic authoritative Church established by Jesus circa 33AD, that was to go out and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, or do you believe the church(s) is a non-issue, of no real significance? If so, then Jesus built a church in vain (Matthew 16:18) and did in fact leave His Church “orphans” for a new authority —the bible. However the bible tells us that nothing will supplant His establshed church!*
J
joe370
Guest
I think, the reason there are so many non-Catholic churches in the world today is because there are so many different interpretations of the Bible in the protestant sphere, due to the doctrine of sola scriptura (bible alone), ironically, preached from the pulpits of a man-made church like yours. Which is it, the church or the bible; you can’t have it both ways! Either stick with the doctrine of sola scriptura and steer clear of all churches regardless of denomination or come back to the Apostolic Church. The infallible Holy Spirit, who is guiding the very fallible church, according to your bible, cannot possibly be responsible for such mass confusion! There is no “universal” Protestant Church; if there were, unity would be attainable. Look at all the strides the C.C. and the E.O.C. have made, especially since the miracles of Damascus, google.com/search?q=miracles+of+Damascus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a I will cite just one of a bevy of examples of division amoungst the protestant churches: some Protestants believe in infant baptism while others do not. The Catholic Church, however is universal; the C.C. has one belief system, and one leader to guide it— the Apostolic Church, just as the bible demands.
Do you believe the Bible is from the Apostolic Church?
If so, which church in the 2nd, 4th, 11th, 16th and finally the 21th century continues to be the Apostolic Church. Keeping in mind that Jesus said, *“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” * (Jn 14:26) (John 16:13) - How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth. (Mt. 28-19) Jesus states - Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, **I am with you always, until the end of the age."
**
and when you say “Let us pray for unity,” all you mean is submission to the Pope. That’s not “unity.”
I am sure you must pray for unity, since Jesus prayed for it. In your mind how can this be achieved? BTY I don’t submit to the Pope or any other man for that matter, well maybe my boss, but that’s it. LOL —I submit to the Deposit of Faith, safeguarded by the C.C. with the Pope at the helm, just as Peter was, in the 1st century —handed down by Jesus Christ via His apostles and their disciples through the imposition of hands. If you choose another way, that’s none of my business!!!
You and others in this thread have done nothing but minimize the Bible’s authority, comparing it constantly to what you say is the over-riding authority of the Church; but no Church has a leg to stand on without the Bible:
Show me, in the bible, where it says the bible is our sole and exclusive authority on all matters of faith and morals. I have shown you many verses in this thread that reveal the church as the sole and exclusive authority, and you simply ignore them! Evidently you didn’t read my post. I said, “I’m in no way minimizing the importance of the Bible, after all it is the product of the C.C. I’m simply illustrating the inviolable necessity of Jesus’ Apostolic Church. The Bible is very important as a guide book for how we ought to live our live.” You are wrong when you say that “ no Church has a leg to stand on without the Bible.” However, THE C.C. would be nothing without JESUS AND HIS CHOSEN APOSTLES AND THEIR DISCIPLES WHO EVENTUALLY COMMITED ORAL TRADITION TO WRITTEN TRADITION, OUT OF NECESSITY DUE TO THE VARIOUS HERETICAL MOVEMENTS CROPPING UP! The apostolic traditions, be it oral or written were safeguarded by the C.C. and no other! Nobody ever said the C.C. was the Divine author of the Bible! The C.C. codified your bible, not the other way around! No C.C. —no Bible!!! Prove me wrong if you can. I am always open to new ideas and possibilities!
fficial&client=firefox-a I will cite just one of a bevy of examples of division amoungst the protestant churches: some Protestants believe in infant baptism while others do not. The Catholic Church, however is universal; the C.C. has one belief system, and one leader to guide it— the Apostolic Church, just as the bible demands.Do you believe the Bible is from the Apostolic Church?
If so, which church in the 2nd, 4th, 11th, 16th and finally the 21th century continues to be the Apostolic Church. Keeping in mind that Jesus said, *“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” * (Jn 14:26) (John 16:13) - How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth. (Mt. 28-19) Jesus states - Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, **I am with you always, until the end of the age."
**
and when you say “Let us pray for unity,” all you mean is submission to the Pope. That’s not “unity.”
I am sure you must pray for unity, since Jesus prayed for it. In your mind how can this be achieved? BTY I don’t submit to the Pope or any other man for that matter, well maybe my boss, but that’s it. LOL —I submit to the Deposit of Faith, safeguarded by the C.C. with the Pope at the helm, just as Peter was, in the 1st century —handed down by Jesus Christ via His apostles and their disciples through the imposition of hands. If you choose another way, that’s none of my business!!!
You and others in this thread have done nothing but minimize the Bible’s authority, comparing it constantly to what you say is the over-riding authority of the Church; but no Church has a leg to stand on without the Bible:
Show me, in the bible, where it says the bible is our sole and exclusive authority on all matters of faith and morals. I have shown you many verses in this thread that reveal the church as the sole and exclusive authority, and you simply ignore them! Evidently you didn’t read my post. I said, “I’m in no way minimizing the importance of the Bible, after all it is the product of the C.C. I’m simply illustrating the inviolable necessity of Jesus’ Apostolic Church. The Bible is very important as a guide book for how we ought to live our live.” You are wrong when you say that “ no Church has a leg to stand on without the Bible.” However, THE C.C. would be nothing without JESUS AND HIS CHOSEN APOSTLES AND THEIR DISCIPLES WHO EVENTUALLY COMMITED ORAL TRADITION TO WRITTEN TRADITION, OUT OF NECESSITY DUE TO THE VARIOUS HERETICAL MOVEMENTS CROPPING UP! The apostolic traditions, be it oral or written were safeguarded by the C.C. and no other! Nobody ever said the C.C. was the Divine author of the Bible! The C.C. codified your bible, not the other way around! No C.C. —no Bible!!! Prove me wrong if you can. I am always open to new ideas and possibilities!
J
joe370
Guest
Churches whose leaders condone ignoring of certain aspects of verse 44 above will always try to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration, saying that the Bible only reflects the Word of God, but Protestants cannot concede any other than the fact that it is actually equal to the Word of God; it is His holy Word, over which there is no higher authority on Earth.
Again, show me where the bible claims to be Jesus’ SOLE authority! If you are going to use 2 Tim. 3:18, I also believe that All Scripture (collected, selected, edited and finally codified by the C.C.) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Clearly it doesn’t say ONLY scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. I would never denigrate the authority and inspiration of the Bible, for that would be to denigrate GOD and His created church!!! The bible and the WORD of GOD are mutually exclusive; one is God Himself, while the other is a collection of inspired books! Sorry, nothing is equal to the Word of God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.” John 1 When you say, “it is His holy Word (and you mean Jesus as John 1 illustrates), over which there is no higher authority on Earth.” —THEN I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
Psa 119:11 Thy words have I hidden in my heart, that I may not sin against thee.
Psa 119:38 Establish thy word to thy servant, in thy fear.
Psa 119:41 Let thy mercy also come upon me, O Lord: thy salvation according to thy word.
Psa 119:43 And take not thou the word of truth utterly out of my mouth: for in thy words, I have hoped exceedingly.
Psa 119:44 So shall I always keep thy law, for ever and ever.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words to my palate! more than honey to my mouth.
Psa 119:104 By thy commandments I have had understanding: therefore have I hated every way of iniquity.
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.
The C.C. doesn’t ignore verse 44 or any other verse of the Psalms. The purpose of the psalms was to bring all to grace and it finally happened through Jesus. “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 The Psalms were not written down in Hebrew before the 6th century BCE, nearly half a millennium after David’s reign (about 1000 BCE), they doubtless depended on oral or hymnic tradition for transmission of any Davidic material. Sons of Korah wrote Psalms 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87; Asaph wrote Psalms 50, 73-83; Heman wrote Psalm 88; Ethan wrote Psalm 89; Hezekiah wrote Psalms 120-123, 128-130, 132, 134-136; Solomon wrote Psalms 72, 127. None of these verses are referring to the New Testament! The psalms were written over an extended period of time (around 1000 B.C. until 400 B.C.) by different authors, hundreds of years before one word was uttered by Jesus. Don’t cite O.T. verses as proof for biblical authority; you will convince no one with this methodology!!!Do you really think the author(s) of Psa 119:105 “Thy word (or as you would like to imagine, thy new testament) is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.” —was referring to the New Testament?
Again, show me where the bible claims to be Jesus’ SOLE authority! If you are going to use 2 Tim. 3:18, I also believe that All Scripture (collected, selected, edited and finally codified by the C.C.) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Clearly it doesn’t say ONLY scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. I would never denigrate the authority and inspiration of the Bible, for that would be to denigrate GOD and His created church!!! The bible and the WORD of GOD are mutually exclusive; one is God Himself, while the other is a collection of inspired books! Sorry, nothing is equal to the Word of God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.” John 1 When you say, “it is His holy Word (and you mean Jesus as John 1 illustrates), over which there is no higher authority on Earth.” —THEN I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
Psa 119:11 Thy words have I hidden in my heart, that I may not sin against thee.
Psa 119:38 Establish thy word to thy servant, in thy fear.
Psa 119:41 Let thy mercy also come upon me, O Lord: thy salvation according to thy word.
Psa 119:43 And take not thou the word of truth utterly out of my mouth: for in thy words, I have hoped exceedingly.
Psa 119:44 So shall I always keep thy law, for ever and ever.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words to my palate! more than honey to my mouth.
Psa 119:104 By thy commandments I have had understanding: therefore have I hated every way of iniquity.
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.
The C.C. doesn’t ignore verse 44 or any other verse of the Psalms. The purpose of the psalms was to bring all to grace and it finally happened through Jesus. “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 The Psalms were not written down in Hebrew before the 6th century BCE, nearly half a millennium after David’s reign (about 1000 BCE), they doubtless depended on oral or hymnic tradition for transmission of any Davidic material. Sons of Korah wrote Psalms 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87; Asaph wrote Psalms 50, 73-83; Heman wrote Psalm 88; Ethan wrote Psalm 89; Hezekiah wrote Psalms 120-123, 128-130, 132, 134-136; Solomon wrote Psalms 72, 127. None of these verses are referring to the New Testament! The psalms were written over an extended period of time (around 1000 B.C. until 400 B.C.) by different authors, hundreds of years before one word was uttered by Jesus. Don’t cite O.T. verses as proof for biblical authority; you will convince no one with this methodology!!!Do you really think the author(s) of Psa 119:105 “Thy word (or as you would like to imagine, thy new testament) is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.” —was referring to the New Testament?
L
Lampo
Guest
Did the Church stand on the Bible in the year 107AD?
J
JRKH
Guest
Protestant101’s recent “attacks” on the “Bible is Catholic” thread and the ‘Protestant Question about Purgatory” thread lead me to believe that he is reaching the limits of his valid arguments and therefore must fall back on accusations of Catholic’s being “Taught to denigrate the Bible. I feel that I must comment upon this for the benefit of all and particularly our brother Christian, Protestant101.
This is part of a fairly consistent pattern with him whereby he deflects points and avoids answering questions while continually asking for answers to his questions. In point, what he is looking for is specific answers in specific ways that he then expounds upon. For instance, the “Questions about Purgatory” thread is an offshoot of the “Bible is Catholic Thread”.
In the “Bible is Catholic thread the discussion involved the fact that the Bible used by Protestants is missing 7 complete books, plus portions of 2 other books and is thus incomplete. Protestant101 would not accept this fact and instead deflected the discussion into one of “what is in those seven books that is not clear in the other books.”
Never mind that we posted links to information showing clearly that Jesus, as well as the Apostles and Early Church Fathers, used and recognized these books.
Never mind that the Books were in the canon for a thousand years.
Never mind that they were canonized via Spirit Guided early Church Councils and ratified repeatedly over the next 1000 years.
Never mind that an errant priest, not a council, removed them in the 16th century.
Protestant101 only wanted to know what was in them that wasn’t in the rest of the Bible. Thus was raised the question of Purgatory.
His point was as simple as it was devious. Any item that we might bring up supporting the Catholic position re the canon of the Bible, would likely involve a doctrine that is rejected by Protestants.
Now purgatory is a concept, long accepted by the Catholic Church and not by the Protestant community. I brought this up as a place where the Deutero’s help the Church in her understanding of God’s revelation while the Protestants are missing that understanding due to their incomplete Bible.
Of course, Protestant101 doesn’t accept purgatory and decided to start another thread to discuss that point. All fine and good except that, once there, he simply repeats his same pattern in the new thread. He deflects and avoids direct answers, continually and repeatedly asks questions to which others respond until he gets the response he is looking for. The one with the details he can hammer at.
“The Devil is in the Details”. Protestant101 knows that and uses it to try and make his points. However, he has been unable to. In each case the amount of information supporting the Catholic position is more than sufficient. He twists and turns and pokes and prods, usually in a pleasant manner, but he always refuses to give in, instead always looking for that one verse, or argument that he can hang his hat on.
When these things fail, he will occasionally lose it, and declare that:
“The Early Church Was Protestant” (The Bible is Catholic Post # 126)
or
You and others in this thread have done nothing but minimize the Bible’s authority (The Bible is Catholic Post #565)
or
“Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration” (Protestant Questions About Purgatory Post #82)
These are the comments of someone who has reached the limits of his abilities to make reasoned arguments and is faced with a most basic problem. He must now disobey Jesus outright. For it is written, “If he will not listen to them, then ]take it to The Church****. Protestant101 cannot do this for he has rejected Christ’s Church and placed all his hopes in the Bible.
It saddens me because I know Protestant101 knows better than to say these things. The history is there, the teachings are there, and the Truth is there but he denies it obstinately.
He hopes that by hammering at certain passages and details he can overcome the teachings of the 2000 year old Church. The one that Jesus, The Word, personally guards and protects.
Peace
James
This is part of a fairly consistent pattern with him whereby he deflects points and avoids answering questions while continually asking for answers to his questions. In point, what he is looking for is specific answers in specific ways that he then expounds upon. For instance, the “Questions about Purgatory” thread is an offshoot of the “Bible is Catholic Thread”.
In the “Bible is Catholic thread the discussion involved the fact that the Bible used by Protestants is missing 7 complete books, plus portions of 2 other books and is thus incomplete. Protestant101 would not accept this fact and instead deflected the discussion into one of “what is in those seven books that is not clear in the other books.”
Never mind that we posted links to information showing clearly that Jesus, as well as the Apostles and Early Church Fathers, used and recognized these books.
Never mind that the Books were in the canon for a thousand years.
Never mind that they were canonized via Spirit Guided early Church Councils and ratified repeatedly over the next 1000 years.
Never mind that an errant priest, not a council, removed them in the 16th century.
Protestant101 only wanted to know what was in them that wasn’t in the rest of the Bible. Thus was raised the question of Purgatory.
His point was as simple as it was devious. Any item that we might bring up supporting the Catholic position re the canon of the Bible, would likely involve a doctrine that is rejected by Protestants.
Now purgatory is a concept, long accepted by the Catholic Church and not by the Protestant community. I brought this up as a place where the Deutero’s help the Church in her understanding of God’s revelation while the Protestants are missing that understanding due to their incomplete Bible.
Of course, Protestant101 doesn’t accept purgatory and decided to start another thread to discuss that point. All fine and good except that, once there, he simply repeats his same pattern in the new thread. He deflects and avoids direct answers, continually and repeatedly asks questions to which others respond until he gets the response he is looking for. The one with the details he can hammer at.
“The Devil is in the Details”. Protestant101 knows that and uses it to try and make his points. However, he has been unable to. In each case the amount of information supporting the Catholic position is more than sufficient. He twists and turns and pokes and prods, usually in a pleasant manner, but he always refuses to give in, instead always looking for that one verse, or argument that he can hang his hat on.
When these things fail, he will occasionally lose it, and declare that:
“The Early Church Was Protestant” (The Bible is Catholic Post # 126)
or
You and others in this thread have done nothing but minimize the Bible’s authority (The Bible is Catholic Post #565)
or
“Catholics are taught to denigrate Biblical authority and inspiration” (Protestant Questions About Purgatory Post #82)
These are the comments of someone who has reached the limits of his abilities to make reasoned arguments and is faced with a most basic problem. He must now disobey Jesus outright. For it is written, “If he will not listen to them, then ]take it to The Church****. Protestant101 cannot do this for he has rejected Christ’s Church and placed all his hopes in the Bible.
It saddens me because I know Protestant101 knows better than to say these things. The history is there, the teachings are there, and the Truth is there but he denies it obstinately.
He hopes that by hammering at certain passages and details he can overcome the teachings of the 2000 year old Church. The one that Jesus, The Word, personally guards and protects.
Peace
James
M
mercygate
Guest
S
sambos671
Guest
Good point. They followed the LXX and a few letters but primarily word of mouth. Where does protestant 101 stand on the extra books of the LXX? Or how about Jude quoting from the book of Enoch which is not an “inspired book” though accepted by the early church as a least partly inspired? I like an earlier statement that the Bible receive’s it’s authority from the church. Obviously Oral Tradition preceded the writen word. If the word were to be the primary and only source of understanding the will of God I think Jesus would have called on scribes to follow him but chose fishermen instead. But then again, I’m an ingnorant man without much knowledge.
L
Lilyflower
Guest
My emphasis.
I think one has to admire and give full credit to Protestant 101 for persistence and courage to come here and take on the faithful militant adherants of the Church of Christ.
However, one must take issue with certain points which I think actually Protestant 101 is actually on a ruse for using. In fact I think they are taking it all ‘tongue in cheek’ and not in the least bit interested in reality.
Therefore, I would strongly urge my sisters and brothers not to ‘take the bait’.If Protestant 101 was a computer program, you are locked into a series of sub-routines which conveniently divert attention from the main issue [program].
Our brethren in Christ conveniently by-passes those arguements they do not, and probably ‘cannot’ answer.
The ruse for example of referring to “church’s” plural
which are unscriptural. The ruse about unity ‘submitting’ to the Pope which is a classic SDA arguement to divert the attention from the key and succinct issue of Catholics relationship to His Holiness as implied Emporor 
The convenient ignoring of the extant facts ‘the Church existed before the Council that canonised the Bible’, the warnings of St John against those wrongly inspired prophets Jn 4 :1-2 and the bidding of St Paul for the Church to hold fast to the teachings and traditions handed down from the Apostles.
Protestant 101 would have us believe ‘there was no Church’, or at least: the Church was dysfunctional until the Council of Nicea.
It is all a ruse. I give Protestant 100 out of 100 for winding so many up and getting so many to take the bait. Nice one Protestant 101
Blessings and peace be upon you.
J
joe370
Guest
**Prot. 101 is simply goading catholic’s at this thread, nothing more. He’s already made up his mind; He’s not interested in the C.C. —just humour him, he’ll get bored and move on. His arguments are nothing but a bunch of bunk anyways! **My emphasis.
I think one has to admire and give full credit to Protestant 101 for persistence and courage to come here and take on the faithful militant adherants of the Church of Christ.
However, one must take issue with certain points which I think actually Protestant 101 is actually on a ruse for using. In fact I think they are taking it all ‘tongue in cheek’ and not in the least bit interested in reality.
Therefore, I would strongly urge my sisters and brothers not to ‘take the bait’.If Protestant 101 was a computer program, you are locked into a series of sub-routines which conveniently divert attention from the main issue [program].
Our brethren in Christ conveniently by-passes those arguements they do not, and probably ‘cannot’ answer.
The ruse for example of referring to “church’s” plural
The convenient ignoring of the extant facts ‘the Church existed before the Council that canonised the Bible’, the warnings of St John against those wrongly inspired prophets Jn 4 :1-2 and the bidding of St Paul for the Church to hold fast to the teachings and traditions handed down from the Apostles.
Protestant 101 would have us believe ‘there was no Church’, or at least: the Church was dysfunctional until the Council of Nicea.
It is all a ruse. I give Protestant 100 out of 100 for winding so many up and getting so many to take the bait. Nice one Protestant 101
Blessings and peace be upon you.
- Status