The Bible is Catholic -

[teancum79]

Why were the Twelve called Apostles (to send forth) and not Prophets (spokesman)?

My guess is because they where doing something that had not been done before telling of the events of Christs ministry. It could also have to do with the amount of travailing they did while some OT prophets got around a bit many tended to stay put.

 

[Stephen168]

Whom the Lord calls the Lord qualifies.

Anyone?

But the Apostle Peter said that to qualify as one of the Twelve one must 1) Witness the resurrected Lord 2) Been in the company of the twelve, since the baptism of John, while the Lord walked on earth

 

[teancum79]

Anyone?

But the Apostle Peter said that to qualify as one of the Twelve one must 1) Witness the resurrected Lord 2) Been in the company of the twelve, since the baptism of John, while the Lord walked on earth

1. Is that a requirement the Lord has to follow or what made the most sense to them at that time?

2 Which of these events are beyond God’s power to reveal (if indeed they must be)?

Paul?

 

[joe370]

Hey teancum79, your profile says you are a Latter-day Saint. Did this come about due to familial tradition or an ardent search for the Apostolic Church established by Jesus in the 1st century, as was the case for me? Do you believe that the C.C. is the church Jesus Christ intended to take on the mantle of authority after the apostles passed away, or do you believe it is the church of Latter-day Saints, or another? Doesn’t the lack of unity in the protestant churches (thousands of competing churches all teaching their own brand of truth on some level) bother you? It did me! Truth is one and it is a person, the person of Jesus Christ:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” John 14:6 --and Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, who happens to be guiding the church in perpetuity, and the only church that I can see practicing this oneness and unity is the catholic apostolic church.

“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:3-6

Below are the words spoken by Jesus to His chosen apostles. He said, He has been granted all authority in heaven and earth and commanded His hand picked apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and to teach them to obey everything I have commanded you, and followed up this command with a promise to be with them and their disciples, and their disciples etc. etc.“until the end of time”; then He ascended into heaven. Matthew 28:20

Jesus said the apostolic church is to go and make disciples of all nations and to teach them to obey everything I have commanded you; no mention of the bible as a means of teaching or as the sole authority! It was a product of the C.C. at the various councils (a communion of bishops) in the 4th century, and later ratified to stave off heresies, including the protestant reformation.

Sidelight:
Martin Luther much to my surprise tried to jettison the book of James, Hebrews and revelations, and 7 of the O.T. books which were declared infallible along with the rest of the bible in the 4th century.
One of the reasons Martin Luther (the driving force behind the reformation, that eventually led to all of the protestant churches we see today) ripped out books of the Old Testament is because some of those books helped to explain some Catholic doctrines. The reason why he wanted to rip out of the Bible the Book of St. James is because it contradicted his personal and heretical view about justification. Luther said justification was by faith alone. NOWHERE does the Bible say that, so Luther added the word to Romans 3:28 in his German Translation. In fact the ONLY place in the New Testament where the words “faith alone” appear is in the Book of St. James where James says that we are “not saved by faith alone” (James 2:24). This was the reason Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James. This man was very arrogant in his desire to conform the Bible to his personal, and heretical, opinions. When the C.C. at the various councils, through the centuries defined doctrines, like the Trinity or Theotokos (not dogmas), it was usually done to quash heresies, and because the fallible church is being guided by the infallible H.S. it should, logically speaking, be believed.

A dogma is a doctrine that has been proposed by the Church via the H.S. to be “divinely and formally revealed.” Doctrine appears to simply mean “teaching.”
Thus, all dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas. There is a thread called Dogma vs Doctrine - What is the difference? pretty informative.

Anyway, back to my point; Sometime prior to this command Jesus said to them, “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

Here are a few pertinent passages:

"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter (kepha), and on this rock (kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it. Matthew 16:18

“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. John 14:16-20

 

[joe370]

The Holy Spirit/Paraclete seems to have several different roles or functions according to John’s Gospel:

* as a companion, to be with the disciples "forever," after Jesus is gone (14:16-18; cf. 1 John 3:24; 4:13)
* as a teacher, who will "remind" the disciples of Jesus' own words and teachings (14:26)
* as a legal witness, who will give "testimony" to the disciples and the world about Jesus (15:26)
* as a judge, who will "convict" (or "convince"?) the world "about sin and righteousness and judgment" (16:8-11)
* as a revealer, who will "guide" the disciples to the "truth" about God and Jesus (16:13-15; cf. 1 John 5:6-8)

If the Holy Spirit is infallibly guiding the apostolic church (the codifier of the bible), which is clearly the C.C. according to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th century church leaders (a church comprised of fallible human beings; apostates and saints; the wheat and the weeds) —through every century (not until the 4th, 11th or 16th century) until Jesus’ second coming, isn’t it safe to assume that the apostolic church of the 21st century is the same as the apostolic church of the 1st century? As a former Lutheran, I simply couldn’t deny this simple logic!

Another thing I couldn’t escape as hard as I tried, was the fact that Jesus is indeed the foundation and cornerstone of the church, but in His place, until his second coming, he declared the apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church.

"… ye (including you and I) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God (which is Jesus’ “Body” with Jesus as the head of that body, the church and the church of the Living GOD and the pillar and foundation of truth); **And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. **

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ (these folks were, in their different capacities, needed for the teaching and edifying of the Church which is the “Body” of Jesus, not the bible, using the infallible bible as one of its strongest weapons), till we all come to the unity of the faith (this in my opinion will never happen in the protestant churches) and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine , by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.” (Eph 4:7-16)

I use to think the catholic church was guilty of this, at least until I investigated the matter for myself. Once I removed the log from my own eye, I could finally see how prevalent this was in the protestant churches, and only getting worse. If the C.C. isn’t the Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ circa 33 A.D. then I don’t know of any other church that fits the bill.

God bless…

 

[joe370]

Just thought I would throw this out there: As the bible says, Truth is one and it is a person, the person of Jesus Christ:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” John 14:6 --and Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, who is guiding the church in perpetuity. If the Church is the House of the Living God and the pillar and foundation of truth, doesn’t that mean that the church, which is the House of the Living God, is the pillar and foundation of Jesus?

 

[mercygate]

I’m not saying there was no tradition, but the apostles for the most part where not well educated. They broke from the norm that was based on history and a limited and I think we can agree inaccurate view of the Law of Moses.

God has been calling people to do his work for a long time. They typically receive their authority from one who has it by the laying on of hands and serve in the capacity God assigns. Sometimes they are quite well known like Moses and others are more in the back ground.

This (and your post above) describe how the Catholic and Orthodox Churches select and consecrate bishops.

Is it your understanding that this is not the same as how it was done in the New Testament – given that after the first generation there could be no more eyewitnesses? We believe that while the generation of eyewitness would (of course) die out, the function Christ imparted to them would (by his own words) continue with His guidance “to the end of the age.”

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by teancum79 View Post
Apostle and prophets are pretty close, but apostles where not around before the time of Christ.

You seem to be implying that prophets only existed in the O.T. The gift of prophecy seems to have been a temporary gift given by the Christ for the laying of the foundation of the church. Prophets were foundational to the church (Ephesians 2:20). The prophet proclaimed a message from the Lord to the early believers. Sometimes a prophet’s message was revelatory (new revelation and truth from God) and sometimes a prophet’s message was predictive (see Acts 11:28 and 21:10). The early Christians did not have the complete Bible. Some early Christians did not have access to any of the books of the New Testament. The New Testament prophets along with the apostles “filled the gap” by proclaiming God’s message to the people who would not have access to it otherwise. So, the Lord sent prophets to proclaim God’s Word to His people. The last book of the New Testament (Revelation) was not completed until late in the first century and the bible that we have in our possession wasn’t codified until the 4th century, and it was done out of necessity due to spurious Christian churches claiming to be the true Apostolic Church, hence the need for the word catholic/universal to make the distinction.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

“Jesus’ revelation is the definite message of the Father. To understand its meaning more and more clearly the Church which He established will have throughout all ages the infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost. However, during the Apostolic times, God continued to select certain instruments like unto the Prophets of the Old Law to make known His will in an extraordinary manner and to foretell coming events: such, for instance, are the Prophets of Antioch (Acts 13:1,8), Agabus, the daughters of the Evangelist Philip, etc. And among the charismata (cf. Prat, 'La theologie de Saint Paul”, 1 pt., note H, p. 180-4) conferred so abundantly to hasten and fortify the incipient progress of the faith, one of the principal, next after the Apostolic, is the gift of prophecy. It is granted “unto edification, and exhortation, and comfort” (1 Corinthians 14:3). The writer of the “Didache” informs us that in his day it was fairly frequent and widespread, and he indicates the signs by which it may be recognized (xi, 7-12). Finally the Canon of the Scriptures closes with a prophetic book, the Apocalypse of St. John, which describes the struggles and the victories of the new kingdom while awaiting the return of its Chief at the consummation of all things."
1 Corinthians 14:29-32 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

 

[paarsurrey]

To our Protestant Brethren I offer the opportunity to explain how you feel it is possible to accept and use the Bible apart from the Church that wrote, compiled, taught, interpreted, translated, protected and defended the Holy bible 1500 years.
QUOTE]

Hi

I think this confirms that the present NTBible has nothing to do with Jesus. It was not compiled by Jesus or with his Will.

It is neither from the mouth of GodAllahYHWH nor from the mouth of JesusYeshuaIssa or from the mouth of Mary. This is clever work of Paul and his church in Rome, in my opinion, when Jesus was on his journey to India after the incident of crucifixion in which Jesus was saved a cursed death on Cross; nevertheless this was denied by Paul as it suited his ulterior motives.

In Jesus absence Paul felt free to use his name as a cover to promote his own theological philosophy based on death on Cross; using far fetched obscure sentences hinting towards trinity and divinity of Jesus. Maybe it is Paul’s differences and enmity with Jesus to start with which is reflected in the NTBible; and the present Christians, a faithful sheep, are perhaps not to be balmed in this connection directly.

I love Jesus and Mary. I respect Catholics and their faith.

Thanks

 

[Stephen168]

1. Is that a requirement the Lord has to follow or what made the most sense to them at that time?

2 Which of these events are beyond God’s power to reveal (if indeed they must be)?

1 Corinthians 14:29-32 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:21-23
…
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter (kepha), and on this rock (kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it. Matthew 16:18

“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

And “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:18

Paul?

When/where was Paul made one of the Twelve?

 

[joe370]

JRKH;3641883:

To our Protestant Brethren I offer the opportunity to explain how you feel it is possible to accept and use the Bible apart from the Church that wrote, compiled, taught, interpreted, translated, protected and defended the Holy bible 1500 years

.
QUOTE]

Hi

I think this confirms that the present NTBible has nothing to do with Jesus. It was not compiled by Jesus or with his Will.

It is neither from the mouth of GodAllahYHWH nor from the mouth of JesusYeshuaIssa or from the mouth of Mary. This is clever work of Paul and his church in Rome, in my opinion, when Jesus was on his journey to India after the incident of crucifixion in which Jesus was saved a cursed death on Cross; nevertheless this was denied by Paul as it suited his ulterior motives.

In Jesus absence Paul felt free to use his name as a cover to promote his own theological philosophy based on death on Cross; using far fetched obscure sentences hinting towards trinity and divinity of Jesus. Maybe it is Paul’s differences and enmity with Jesus to start with which is reflected in the NTBible; and the present Christians, a faithful sheep, are perhaps not to be balmed in this connection directly.

I love Jesus and Mary. I respect Catholics and their faith.

Thanks
WOW!!! No need for Christians to debate any further, because it looks like the whole thing is a clever ruse on the part of Saint Paul and his bogus church. He just out-right deep-sixed all of Christianity by saying the “NTBible has nothing to do with Jesus,” and then said he respects Catholics and their faith. Quite the oxymoron…

I think this confirms that the present NTBible has nothing to do with Jesus. It was not compiled by Jesus or with his Will. Could you please expound???

 

[JRKH]

JRKH;3641883:

To our Protestant Brethren I offer the opportunity to explain how you feel it is possible to accept and use the Bible apart from the Church that wrote, compiled, taught, interpreted, translated, protected and defended the Holy bible 1500 years

.

Hi

I think this confirms that the present NTBible has nothing to do with Jesus. It was not compiled by Jesus or with his Will.

It is neither from the mouth of GodAllahYHWH nor from the mouth of JesusYeshuaIssa or from the mouth of Mary. This is clever work of Paul and his church in Rome, in my opinion, when Jesus was on his journey to India after the incident of crucifixion in which Jesus was saved a cursed death on Cross; nevertheless this was denied by Paul as it suited his ulterior motives.

In Jesus absence Paul felt free to use his name as a cover to promote his own theological philosophy based on death on Cross; using far fetched obscure sentences hinting towards trinity and divinity of Jesus. Maybe it is Paul’s differences and enmity with Jesus to start with which is reflected in the NTBible; and the present Christians, a faithful sheep, are perhaps not to be balmed in this connection directly.

I love Jesus and Mary. I respect Catholics and their faith.

Thanks

Paarsurrey,
It is obvious from your opening statement that you agree with me that the Bible cannot be considered authoritative seperately from the Catholic Church. I don’t agree with your reasons of course, but that would be a subject for another thread.

This thread is for discussion with those people and groups who accept the Bible as the Innerrant Word of God, yet reject the way in which they recieved the Bible and the authority of the Church which compiled it.

Please do not derail this thread.

Peace
James

 

[paarsurrey]

You claim that the only way we know what authentically came from Jesus is that which is contained in the “Word of God”; a title you seem to reserve to be exclusively belonging to the Bible. Yet how can this be? Jesus never wrote anything down, nor did any of his diciples write anything while Jesus was walked among us.

Hi

A very correct observation indeed.

Thanks

 

[JRKH]

I think Bishops are very important. They just are not Apostles.

I’m well aware that the Bible is not the only information source, but most Christians accept the Bible and I’m confident in saying that the writings in it predate Catholic dogma.

I daresay that the writings in it predate Mormon dogma, but not Catholic Dogma since the Bible NT writings were being made at the same time as the Church was being established. Additional dogmas have been defined since then, but always on the firm foundation and authority of Christ’s Church.

As far as “private” interpretation agree that authoritative interpretation should be left to the prophets of God, but I’ll not trust common men no matter how well intentioned to do it for me.

So define for me who these prophets are whom you trust and believe are not “Common Men”. How do you discern that they are Authoritiative and worthy of your Trust?

Peace
James

 

[paarsurrey]

**

1. Nowhere do we see in any of the writings of the Apostles a single instance of where a saved person confesses to a church leader, apostle or otherwise, to get his post-baptism sins forgiven.
2. Jesus is our High Priest .
3. The confession;… it is to the person sinned against that the confession should be made, to heal relationships harmed by sin, “that you may be healed.”**

Hi

These are very valid points and explain the true philosophy of the sins and as to how these could be atoned/forgiven. I agree with them.

Let us work for the peace of the world whole-heartedly.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Truth is one and it is a person, the person of Jesus Christ:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” John 14:6 --and Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Hi

Jesus, and the angel or the holy spirit are one with GodAllahYHWH (sometimes remembered as father or Creator of human being); and they have to as they are working under scheme of life of GodAllahYHWH. The Church is not necessarily one with Jesus, or the angels called the holy spirit or GodAllahYHWH the CreatorFather. Church is run by the sinful human beings so it could have differences with Jesus. It requires concerted effort to align with Jesus on every issues separately; which I think is not there.

Let us work for the peace of the world.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The gift of prophecy seems to have been a temporary gift given by the Christ for the laying of the foundation of the church.

Hi

I don’t think it is a correct statement. Jesus was a Jew and always went to a synogue for worship. He never established or intended to establish any church, I think.

He might have established some place of worship while he was in exile to India after the incident of Crucifixion; in which he made good his escape by the mercy of GodAllahYHWH.

That is a possibility to be explored by the faithful, I think.

Let us work for understanding among religions and for peace of the world.

Thanks

 

[teancum79]

I daresay that the writings in it predate Mormon dogma, but not Catholic Dogma since the Bible NT writings were being made at the same time as the Church was being established. Additional dogmas have been defined since then, but always on the firm foundation and authority of Christ’s Church.

So define for me who these prophets are whom you trust and believe are not “Common Men”. How do you discern that they are Authoritiative and worthy of your Trust?

Peace
James

They have a calling that goes beyond their natural abilities. They are still men, but they become a mouth peace for the Almighty. It is a matter of study and prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit to learn this. I suppose the path is much the same for someone wanting to know the the Bible is God’s word.

As far as the establishment of the CC we may have to disagree on when it happened. Most of what I’ve seen points to 300 ad give or take. A big step away from the time right after Christ.

 

[ibkc]

As far as the establishment of the CC we may have to disagree on when it happened. Most of what I’ve seen points to 300 ad give or take. A big step away from the time right after Christ.

Evidence, please.

 

[JRKH]

**They have a calling that goes beyond their natural abilities. They are still men, but they become a mouth peace for the Almighty.
It is a matter of study and prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit to learn this. **
I suppose the path is much the same for someone wanting to know the the Bible is God’s word.

Do you realize that you just described the Holy Father and the Magesterium?

As far as the establishment of the CC we may have to disagree on when it happened. Most of what I’ve seen points to 300 ad give or take. A big step away from the time right after Christ.

If you only read what is supportive of your view of faith, then this erroneous date will likely never change.
On the other hand, if you take to heart the passages and references offered here and read these you may find that you will say that, “Some” of what you’ve seen points to 300 AD and “Some” of what you’ve seen points to a much earlier date. At that point you will be better equiped to discern the reliability of the various sources. Forgive my bluntness but as it stands now, you have provided nothing but your own opinion, based on unnamed sources, and very probably heretical teachings.

---

---

On a related issue Teancum79, I find it a bit frustrating and somewhat rude that you continually make references such as the one above: “Most of what I’ve seen” and then utterly fail to provide the actual sources for this information which would back up your assertion. You have done this repeatedly, and have ignored actual direct queries for such data.
Continuing to make such unsubstantiated claims simply makes you look ill informed and intellectually dishonest. Is this a normative method that the LDS uses when discussing uncomfortable truths? To ignore and change the subject?

Peace
James