The bible is corrupt!

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Where is the proof from our Muslim friends that it is corrupt?
Do we have many different / altered ancient manuscripts that contradict?
Do we have dependable ancient manuscripts?

Why do our Muslim friend alway push this in a debate?

What about the quran? Is it altered? Can you prove it was not altered?
 
Where is the proof from our Muslim friends that it is corrupt?
Do we have many different / altered ancient manuscripts that contradict?
Do we have dependable ancient manuscripts?

Why do our Muslim friend alway push this in a debate?

What about the quran? Is it altered? Can you prove it was not altered?
The Quran refers to interpretations of the Bible like what you find in the Talmud, not the actual text.
 
This site is very anti catholic so why should I trust it?

bible.ca/catholic.htm
Because they are dealing with a common enemy?

This thread belongs in the apologetics section. Its not only about muslims. But the issues of alteration is now something many non-christians are agreeing to. Even me. And sometimes even some christians. The vatican itself warned people from taking the bible as historically accurate.
 
Islam is filled with many for whom the Quran is little more than a myth. You will hear then say they have the original. Which is not true. One fellow complained mightily about trying to assemble the Quran, it becomes clear why when you realize he gathered up bones of animals, palm leaves, rocks and even then ended up relying on memories. They decided do not have the original. They have a work that was done to try and harmonize the disparate teachings that were becoming apparent.

We know that things were lost, for instance several sources quote a passage in the Quran about stoning. Problem is the passage is no longer in the Quran. Maybe it was in the part eaten by a goat. Seriously, a goat is recorded as eating part of the Quran.

So they don’t have the original, and what they have is clearly not identical to the original.

They you will hear other myths, like that every single copy of the Quran in Arabic is identical. Goodness what falsehood. Type in a google search of “textual criticism Quran” that’s all that is necessary to lay that myth to rest.

What you find is that for many in Islam, the whole thing has been turned into a superstitious folk religion. And they point to a whole mythology as evidence they are correct.

Now such folk religion that we receive as truth say as a child are often held very tightly. Even when a person has it clearly shown to him that it is not true he will tend to hold to it, but if you can once crack him, it all tends to come tumbling down because he finally sees how he’s been told and put his trust in a pile of lies his whole life.

JJ
 
Where is the proof from our Muslim friends that it is corrupt?
Been asking for that for a long time. Paarsurvey I believe is a Muslim and when I ask it gets ignored.
Do we have many different / altered ancient manuscripts that contradict?
No
Do we have dependable ancient manuscripts?
Yes and here are some interesting stats to use in a conversation with anyone claiming the Bible is altered or unrelaible.

There are roughly 27,000 manuscripts alone for the NT in existence. Across all manuscripts there are only 2000 textual differences. Notice I said textual. Not full verses, only single word differences or puntuation differences. But the meaning of the verse does not change when you look at these textual differences. Example: I can say “I ran to the store”, Or I can say “I walked to the store”. The bottom line is I went to the store. That’s what we’re dealing with in the Bible with regard to textual differences.

Another interesting fact is this. We have a parchment from the Gospel of Mark that dates back to 42AD. Just 9 years or so after the death of Christ. Given that this is a copy the original was written probably around 36-38AD, just 3-5 years after the death of Christ. Given the accuracy and consistency of the manuscripts across the board I, I would say we have what they wrote. No other literary work in the world has as many manuscripts as we do for the Bible. No other literary work in the world has copies of manuscripts that date as close to when the original was completed as the Bible. Yet experts never doubt their validity as being equal to the original. Go figure. The Bible can be trusted.
Why do our Muslim friend alway push this in a debate?
Mainly because the authors are listed as anonymous. The Gospels are attributed to the believed writer. That’s why it’s titled the Gospel according to Mark. We believe Mark to be the author, but with very good reason. The Muslims claim that the authors only guessed at what they wrote and it may either be distorted or completely false. They try to back this up by saying there are inconsistencies between the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles. I’ve asked several times to give me concrete examples but never received a response. I can defend the Bible pretty well so maybe they just shy away because of lack of knowledge on their part.

The bottom line is they claim we don’t have the originals and that the ones we have are corrupt. Ok then Mr. Muslim, show me the original uncorrupted version. I’ve been asking for years.
What about the quran? Is it altered? Can you prove it was not altered?
Who knows if the quran was altered and no we can’t prove anything I don’t believe. The quran has many of the same stories the Bible has and probably is a version of the Bible but with some of it’s own text. That text is no different than the texts that started to appear in the late 150-170sAD bearing the names of the Apostles or other followers of Christ that were considered invalid. If you think about it logically, Muhammad was supposedly a descendant of Ishmael. Ishmael was born of Hagar and was never involved in the covenant promised to Abraham. It was always through Isaac.

PEACE
 
Has anyone in this thread read a book by Dr. Bart Ehrman called “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why?”

It’s on google books, just google “misquoting Jesus.”
 
Has anyone in this thread read a book by Dr. Bart Ehrman called “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why?”

It’s on google books, just google “misquoting Jesus.”
Ehrman lacks credibliblty in the Christian community.
Amy have you read andy books by FF Bruce?
 
Probably because they couldn’t keep saying “the Bible is unchanged,” if they considered him credible.
 
In other words, the idea that the variants in the NT manuscripts alter the theology of the NT is overstated at best.5 Unfortunately, as careful a scholar as Ehrman is, his treatment of major theological changes in the text of the NT tends to fall under one of two criticisms: Either his textual decisions are wrong, or his interpretation is wrong. These criticisms were made of his earlier work, Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, which Misquoting Jesus has drawn from extensively. Yet, the conclusions that he put forth there are still stated here without recognition of some of the severe criticisms of his work the first go-around. For a book geared toward a lay audience, one would think that he would want to have his discussion nuanced a bit more, especially with all the theological weight that he says is on the line. One almost gets the impression that he is encouraging the Chicken Littles in the Christian community to panic at data that they are simply not prepared to wrestle with. Time and time again in the book, highly charged statements are put forth that the untrained person simply cannot sift through. And that approach resembles more an alarmist mentality than what a mature, master teacher is able to offer. Regarding the evidence, suffice it to say that significant textual variants that alter core doctrines of the NT have not yet been produced.

Finally, regarding 1 John 5:7-8, virtually no modern translation of the Bible includes the “Trinitarian formula,” since scholars for centuries have recognized it as added later. Only a few very late manuscripts have the verses. One wonders why this passage is even discussed in Ehrman’s book. The only reason seems to be to fuel doubts. The passage made its way into our Bibles through political pressure, appearing for the first time in 1522, even though scholars then and now knew that it is not authentic. The early church did not know of this text, yet the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 affirmed explicitly the Trinity! How could they do this without the benefit of a text that didn’t get into the Greek NT for another millennium? Chalcedon’s statement was not written in a vacuum: the early church put into a theological formulation what they saw in the NT.

A distinction needs to be made here: just because a particular verse does not affirm a cherished doctrine does not mean that that doctrine cannot be found in the NT. In this case, anyone with an understanding of the healthy patristic debates over the Godhead knows that the early church arrived at their understanding from an examination of the data in the NT. The Trinitarian formula only summarized what they found; it did not inform their declarations.

In sum, Ehrman’s latest book does not disappoint on the provocative scale. But it comes up short on genuine substance about his primary contention. Scholars bear a sacred duty not to alarm lay readers on issues that they have little understanding of. Unfortunately, the average layperson will leave this book with far greater doubts about the wording and teachings of the NT than any textual critic would ever entertain. A good teacher doesn’t hold back on telling his students what’s what, but he also knows how to package the material so they don’t let emotion get in the way of reason. A good teacher does not create Chicken Littles.6

bible.org/page.php?page_id=3452
 
He is a secular humanist critiquing the bible.

Sister Amy already knows that --being disingenious
Secular humanist? He was a devout born-again Christian when he began studying, and now he calls himself “Agnostic,” because he believes in God but doesn’t believe the Bible has been preserved, and thinks it is untrustworthy.

I’m not being disingenuous at all. Is it true that the only people allowed to criticize the Bible are priests? Or Christians?

If so, then the only people allowed to criticize the Qur’an are Muslim scholars, or maybe just Muslims.

😃 😃 😃
 
Secular humanist? He was a devout born-again Christian when he began studying, and now he calls himself “Agnostic,” because he believes in God but doesn’t believe the Bible has been preserved, and thinks it is untrustworthy.

I’m not being disingenuous at all. Is it true that the only people allowed to criticize the Bible are priests? Or Christians?

If so, then the only people allowed to criticize the Qur’an are Muslim scholars, or maybe just Muslims.

😃 😃 😃
But Amy you know of Christians objections to Ehrman --you are a regular on WhyIslam are you not?

Does Islam allow textual criticism even by Muslim scholars of the Quaran? The answer is NO
 
But Amy you know of Christians objections to Ehrman --you are a regular on WhyIslam are you not?
I’m not well-versed in them. I read the book and found it very convincing. Just because Christians object does not make his criticism inaccurate. Hearing a lay Christian object to a scholar is hardly a reason for me to not refer to the book. 🙂 (Unless you will stand up and tell Vickie to stop referring to jihadwatch and faithfreedom, and other posters to refrain from similar anti-islamic sites like islamicreview and answering-islam.) 🙂

And I used to be a regular on WhyIslam but that is pretty unrelated, don’t you think? I’m only admitting it because rpp and others have accused me of being dishonest and trying to conceal my identity or something.
Does Islam allow textual criticism even by Muslim scholars of the Quaran? The answer is NO
Of course the answer is YES, and it’s been going on for centuries… nearly 14. 🙂
 
Very informative! Thank You!
Been asking for that for a long time. Paarsurvey I believe is a Muslim and when I ask it gets ignored.

No

Yes and here are some interesting stats to use in a conversation with anyone claiming the Bible is altered or unrelaible.

There are roughly 27,000 manuscripts alone for the NT in existence. Across all manuscripts there are only 2000 textual differences. Notice I said textual. Not full verses, only single word differences or puntuation differences. But the meaning of the verse does not change when you look at these textual differences. Example: I can say “I ran to the store”, Or I can say “I walked to the store”. The bottom line is I went to the store. That’s what we’re dealing with in the Bible with regard to textual differences.

Another interesting fact is this. We have a parchment from the Gospel of Mark that dates back to 42AD. Just 9 years or so after the death of Christ. Given that this is a copy the original was written probably around 36-38AD, just 3-5 years after the death of Christ. Given the accuracy and consistency of the manuscripts across the board I, I would say we have what they wrote. No other literary work in the world has as many manuscripts as we do for the Bible. No other literary work in the world has copies of manuscripts that date as close to when the original was completed as the Bible. Yet experts never doubt their validity as being equal to the original. Go figure. The Bible can be trusted.

Mainly because the authors are listed as anonymous. The Gospels are attributed to the believed writer. That’s why it’s titled the Gospel according to Mark. We believe Mark to be the author, but with very good reason. The Muslims claim that the authors only guessed at what they wrote and it may either be distorted or completely false. They try to back this up by saying there are inconsistencies between the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles. I’ve asked several times to give me concrete examples but never received a response. I can defend the Bible pretty well so maybe they just shy away because of lack of knowledge on their part.

The bottom line is they claim we don’t have the originals and that the ones we have are corrupt. Ok then Mr. Muslim, show me the original uncorrupted version. I’ve been asking for years.

Who knows if the quran was altered and no we can’t prove anything I don’t believe. The quran has many of the same stories the Bible has and probably is a version of the Bible but with some of it’s own text. That text is no different than the texts that started to appear in the late 150-170sAD bearing the names of the Apostles or other followers of Christ that were considered invalid. If you think about it logically, Muhammad was supposedly a descendant of Ishmael. Ishmael was born of Hagar and was never involved in the covenant promised to Abraham. It was always through Isaac.

PEACE
 
Because they are dealing with a common enemy?

This thread belongs in the apologetics section. Its not only about muslims. But the issues of alteration is now something many non-christians are agreeing to. Even me. And sometimes even some christians. The vatican itself warned people from taking the bible as historically accurate.
SOURCE, PLEASE
 
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